The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread!

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Simple, logical, non-emotional, scientifically based opinion: If something cannot think or feel, then it does not deserve any rights.

then by your definition, a fetus deserves rights because it can feel.

 

[OKgrannie]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

not talking about a man going out and intentionally impregnating someone because he wants a child. Talking about when an accidental pregnacy occurs, the man wants to keep the child instead of killing it.

Why do you think the man should be able to force a woman to endure a pregnancy/childbirth she doesn't want, only to hand over the child to him? A pregnancy/childbirth causes changes to a woman's body forever in addition to health risks she must endure. If the man sticks around, most women will discuss the situation with the prospective father, but what makes you think he is entitled to some authority over her body?

not saying you should deny her access, only that the guy should have some say in the matter, since he must bear some of the burden.

If he's around, he can have some say, but nobody's obligated to listen. There are only two people to vote, and the woman has the majority. Perhaps when science has developed an artificial womb so that men can gestate and give birth, the division of choice will be different. Are you willing to pay that price in order to be the decision-maker?

which is how it should be since she was partly to blame for bringing the child into being. Why should the guy have to provide 100% of the support for a child that the woman had at least 50% of the responsibility for creating?

Women expect to pay financially in addition to providing 100% of the physical and emotional care for the child. I don't expect to see that change.

 

[rivrrat]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

That ought to clear out a few hospices!

Indeed. As it should.

 

[VanceMack]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Indeed. As it should.

I offer nothing but respect for consistency!

 

[rivrrat]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

then by your definition, a fetus deserves rights because it can feel.

Only after a certain point. It cannot think and feel until the cerebral cortex is intact and that doesn't happen until about the 22nd week, but I'm cool with setting the deadline at 18 weeks. Something like 90% of abortions are done prior to that anyway.

 

[rivrrat]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

I offer nothing but respect for consistency!

Why keep something around that can't think or feel? Is there a point to it other than purely self-centered motivations by people who refuse to let go?

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Though I can argue from an emotional side - my basis for supporting the abortion choice is purely unemotional - more so - questions of a practical and common sense nature.
If the answer to any of these things is a 'no' then I think someone has a legitimate reason to ponder abortion if they so choose:

Can a mother make it through a pregnancy while ensuring her health, the health of her unborn or the health and security of her other chidlren?

good point and well made

Is the family unit capable of caring for a new child (either an only child or a new sibling).

there are other alternatives. adoption for one

Does the mother have illnesses, disorders or issues (not those commonly associated - temporarily - with pregnancy and post-partum) which might hinder, interfere or make pregnancy and child-rearing *more* difficult than it already is?

pregnanacy yes, child-rearing no. see the adoption option above.

What about the father? If she's not solid in these areas is he? Or are they both struggling with issues that will cause problems?

there is always that pesky adoption option

Overall - my views mainly center around the needs of the unborn/newborn being met - as well as the needs of the growing child being met when they're 5, 10 . . . and so on.

There's far more to abortion than "Is mom going to die?" and "is baby going to survive?" . . . that merely focuses on one aspect of the many reasons why people feel compelled towards that option.

There are lots of families out there willing and wanting to adopt children. In addition to my own two children, I have two adopted sons that I love more than life itself. I wouldn't trade them for anything in the world and it saddens me to no end to contemplate the idea that their birth mothers might have aborted them. Both of them were unplanned/unwanted pregnancies cause by their crackhead mothers having unprotected sex with multiple partners.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Why keep something around that can't think or feel? Is there a point to it other than purely self-centered motivations by people who refuse to let go?

I agree, let's make a date and go down to the local nursing home and kill all the old people there.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Only after a certain point. It cannot think and feel until the cerebral cortex is intact and that doesn't happen until about the 22nd week, but I'm cool with setting the deadline at 18 weeks. Something like 90% of abortions are done prior to that anyway.

ah, but you said "think OR feel" a fetus can feel (ie it reacts to outside stimulus) much earlier than 22 weeks.

it shouldn't take a woman 18 weeks to decide whether or not she wants an abortion. most women find out they are pregnant within 4-5 weeks. give them another week or two to make up their mind.

 

[VanceMack]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

I agree, let's make a date and go down to the local nursing home and kill all the old people there.

Death panels?

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Death panels?

what the hell... most of them are so senile they can't think or feel anymore anyway. why should we let them sit around sucking up resources? they had their shot and lived their lives, that's more than what the pro-choice crowd wants to give to unborn children.

 

[VanceMack]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Why keep something around that can't think or feel? Is there a point to it other than purely self-centered motivations by people who refuse to let go?

I was being serious. I dont have to agree with you to respect your position...especially one that is consistent.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

My thought is that a woman probably most of the time does take the feelings of her man into consideration. But, ultimately, she must make the decision for herself. It's mom who will be raising the child with or without the father's support, monetarily or otherwise. In a marriage, I'd think it might cause a divorce somewhere down the line if one didn't want the baby and the other did...no matter who prevailed. In relationships, I think the rubber probably finally meets the road; meaning that a woman, despite what her man says, looks to her future. Does she want this guy in her life for the next 18 years? Does she really want to have a baby without being married? Or does she even want to get married to the guy. Can she trust what he says about helping her with the child? Is he reliable? And as complicated as these decisions seem, she probably knows the answer in a heartbeat.

 

[VanceMack]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

what the hell... most of them are so senile they can't think or feel anymore anyway. why should we let them sit around sucking up resources? they had their shot and lived their lives, that's more than what the pro-choice crowd wants to give to unborn children.

Cant fault the post...logic based...attacking...emotion free...fits the thread to a T...

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

My thought is that a woman probably most of the time does take the feelings of her man into consideration. But, ultimately, she must make the decision for herself. It's mom who will be raising the child with or without the father's support, monetarily or otherwise. In a marriage, I'd think it might cause a divorce somewhere down the line if one didn't want the baby and the other did...no matter who prevailed. In relationships, I think the rubber probably finally meets the road; meaning that a woman, despite what her man says, looks to her future. Does she want this guy in her life for the next 18 years? Does she really want to have a baby without being married? Or does she even want to get married to the guy. Can she trust what he says about helping her with the child? Is he reliable? And as complicated as these decisions seem, she probably knows the answer in a heartbeat.

all true and well said, but it does not take into account the reality that there are childless couples out there who would love to take and raise the child.

IMHO, it all comes down to; if it poses no serious health risks, is the woman willing to endure 9 months of discomfort and inconvenience to bring a child into the world?

 

[samsmart]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

IMHO, it all comes down to; if it poses no serious health risks, is the woman willing to endure 9 months of discomfort and inconvenience to bring a child into the world?

She does have that choice available to her. Adoption and abortion are mutually exclusive issues. One shouldn't affect the other.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

She does have that choice available to her. Adoption and abortion are mutually exclusive issues. One shouldn't affect the other.

really? one would think that the availability of one would affect the decision to have the other. I fail to see how they are mutually exclusive issues.

 

[samsmart]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

really? one would think that the availability of one would affect the decision to have the other. I fail to see how they are mutually exclusive issues.

No it wouldn't. Because abortion will never be not available. Just because it won't be legal doesn't mean it won't be available. Which makes them options for pregnant women, and pregnant women have to choose one or the other, but the issues surrounding abortion and the issues surrounding adoption are mutually exclusive.

 

[rivrrat]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

ah, but you said "think OR feel"

Yes, I did because it was grammatically correct. A fetus, prior to having an attached cerebral cortex, cannot think OR feel. Since a cerebral cortex is required in order for the brain to process sensory input.

a fetus can feel (ie it reacts to outside stimulus) much earlier than 22 weeks.

That's not feeling. My plants react to outside stimulus too.

it shouldn't take a woman 18 weeks to decide whether or not she wants an abortion. most women find out they are pregnant within 4-5 weeks. give them another week or two to make up their mind.

I didn't know I was pregnant until I was damn near past the cutoff date. But when a woman finds out is irrelevant to when the cutoff should be. 18 weeks is a perfectly reasonable timeline. Plenty of time to find out one is pregnant and decide what one wants to do about it. Medical decisions that have a bearing on someone's life shouldn't be rushed and there's no logically consistent reason to cut the time back to 6-7 weeks as opposed to 18.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

No it wouldn't. Because abortion will never be not available. Just because it won't be legal doesn't mean it won't be available. Which makes them options for pregnant women, and pregnant women have to choose one or the other, but the issues surrounding abortion and the issues surrounding adoption are mutually exclusive.

ah, the old "it is so because I say it is so" arguement agian. well, can't argue with that. unless you care to explain why you think they are mutually exclusive?

the concept may be exclusive (ie you can't do both simultaneously like you can't be awake and asleep at the same time) but the issues surrounding them are not exclusive. Adoption is a viable alternative to abortion.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

all true and well said, but it does not take into account the reality that there are childless couples out there who would love to take and raise the child. IMHO, it all comes down to; if it poses no serious health risks, is the woman willing to endure 9 months of discomfort and inconvenience to bring a child into the world?

I don't disagree with you, Oscar. There are families who would give anything to be able to adopt a baby. My S.O.'s son and his wife are one of those families. They've finally decided, after waiting several years and knowing they'd wait several more, to adopt a Korean baby.

 

[samsmart]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

ah, the old "it is so because I say it is so" arguement agian. well, can't argue with that. unless you care to explain why you think they are mutually exclusive?

the concept may be exclusive (ie you can't do both simultaneously like you can't be awake and asleep at the same time) but the issues surrounding them are not exclusive. Adoption is a viable alternative to abortion.

I never said adoption wasn't a viable alternative to abortion. In fact, I said it was just a few posts ago.

She does have that choice available to her. Adoption and abortion are mutually exclusive issues. One shouldn't affect the other.

However, adoption should remain just that - an option. In order for it to be an option, there'd have to be alternatives. Which means abortion is an alternative.

Effectively, what I am saying is that a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy shouldn't be forced to give her child up for adoption.

Whether a woman decides to give an unwanted child up for adoption or whether she chooses to get an abortion, that choice is hers to decide and her decision alone. If she chooses, she can seek out the professional advice of a medical practitioner or seek out the professional advice of an adoption services professional. But whatever choice she makes, both are medical decisions and should be made with the confidentiality of doctor-patient privilege in mind. And nobody should interfere with that.

Because of that, the issues of abortion and adoption are mutually exclusive. It doesn't matter whether or not the woman is able to carry a pregnancy to term without risk of harm to her and then give it up for adoption. Abortion is an option to her even if she can.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

I never said adoption wasn't a viable alternative to abortion. In fact, I said it was just a few posts ago.



However, adoption should remain just that - an option. In order for it to be an option, there'd have to be alternatives. Which means abortion is an alternative.

Effectively, what I am saying is that a woman who has a pregnant woman shouldn't be forced to give her child up for adoption.

Whether a woman decides to give an unwanted child up for adoption or whether she chooses to get an abortion, that choice is hers to decide and her decision alone. If she chooses, she can seek out the professional advice of a medical practitioner or seek out the professional advice of an adoption services professional. But whatever choice she makes, both are medical decisions and should be made with the confidentiality of doctor-patient privilege in mind. And nobody should interfere with that.

Because of that, the issues of abortion and adoption are mutually exclusive. It doesn't matter whether or not the woman is able to carry a pregnancy to term without risk of harm to her and then give it up for adoption. Abortion is an option to her even if she can.

I'm still not seeing how that makes abortion and adoption mutally exclusive issues or why any of that should mean that the father has zero say in the matter.

 

[samsmart]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

I'm still not seeing how that makes abortion and adoption mutally exclusive issues

So you're saying they aren't mutually exclusive issues just because you say so?

The reason why I see them as mutually exclusive issues is because I just don't see how one affects the other. How does terminating a pregnancy affect making sure a newborn baby gets placed with a couple who can adopt it and take care of it? How does whether or not teenage girls with unwanted pregnancy have abortions available to them have to do with whether or not gay couples can adopt children?

As I've said before, a woman with an unwanted pregnancy should be able to get the professional advice of her medical practitioner if she so decides. If she chooses to get an abortion, she gets it. If she doesn't, she can keep it and raise it herself. If she doesn't want to raise it herself, she can give it up for adoption. And that involves all sorts of other issues that have nothing to do with abortion (how much involvement the mother will have in the child's life, at what age will the child know she's adopted, etc.) That's why I think they are mutually exclusive.

or why any of that should mean that the father has zero say in the matter.

The father has zero say in the matter because abortion is a medical decision between a woman and her medical practitioner.

Just like a wife has zero say in whether or not her husband gets a vasectomy which is a medical decision for him to make on the professional advice of his medical practitioner.

Just like a husband has zero say in whether or not his wife uses birth control pills which is a medical decision for him to make on the professional advice of her medical practitioner.

Just like a wife has zero say in whether or not her husband donates his sperm to a sperm bank for another woman to use to get pregnant.

Just like a husband has zero say in whether or not his wife donates her eggs to a fertility clinic for another woman to use to get pregnant.

Medical decisions are to made only by the person who undertakes them, with informed consent from medical practitioners. Just because a person is married doesn't mean they lose their individuality.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

So you're saying they aren't mutually exclusive issues just because you say so?

The reason why I see them as mutually exclusive issues is because I just don't see how one affects the other. How does terminating a pregnancy affect making sure a newborn baby gets placed with a couple who can adopt it and take care of it? How does whether or not teenage girls with unwanted pregnancy have abortions available to them have to do with whether or not gay couples can adopt children?

As I've said before, a woman with an unwanted pregnancy should be able to get the professional advice of her medical practitioner if she so decides. If she chooses to get an abortion, she gets it. If she doesn't, she can keep it and raise it herself. If she doesn't want to raise it herself, she can give it up for adoption. And that involves all sorts of other issues that have nothing to do with abortion (how much involvement the mother will have in the child's life, at what age will the child know she's adopted, etc.) That's why I think they are mutually exclusive.



The father has zero say in the matter because abortion is a medical decision between a woman and her medical practitioner.

Just like a wife has zero say in whether or not her husband gets a vasectomy which is a medical decision for him to make on the professional advice of his medical practitioner.

Just like a husband has zero say in whether or not his wife uses birth control pills which is a medical decision for him to make on the professional advice of her medical practitioner.

Just like a wife has zero say in whether or not her husband donates his sperm to a sperm bank for another woman to use to get pregnant.

Just like a husband has zero say in whether or not his wife donates her eggs to a fertility clinic for another woman to use to get pregnant.

Medical decisions are to made only by the person who undertakes them, with informed consent from medical practitioners. Just because a person is married doesn't mean they lose their individuality.

must be nice to live in a world where everything is neatly compartmentalized and separate from everything else and there are no worries about how your decisions affect other people.