The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread!

[majora$$hole]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Oh, brother.

Okay, let's try again: What marks the first instant in the life of any human being? Not human sperm, not human egg, human being? That would be the core of the issue.

i believe it should be based on when we decide when someone is dead which the law and science have determined to be "brain death" so life should be "brain life".

 

[majora$$hole]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

I agree that "person hood" or more accurately when it begins needs to be legally defined. To be completely honest, the right to privacy and person hood in general are both relatively vague in the Constitution and should be clarified for many issues, not just abortion. Personally, I feel that person hood is indeed so vague in the Constitution to get around the slavery problem of the time.

Once person hood is defined at any point, abortion would certainly (logically) be deemed murder after that point except in the case of self defense (health of the mother).

now your getting there mac now you just need to equate the starting of life to the ending of life then you and i will be VERY close to our ways of thinking.

 

[digsbe]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

I live in a state where it's considered self-defense if the decedent was in your house uninvited.

If a woman choses to have sex she invites the child in her womb. If she is raped her body still willfully gives it's resources. I disagree with your state, you shouldn't have the right to kill someone for trespassing.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

i believe it should be based on when we decide when someone is dead which the law and science have determined to be "brain death" so life should be "brain life".

And then the debate will be, "What really constitutes brain life."

Why can't the timeframe be based on something less ambiguous....like a timeline from inception that allows plenty of time for a woman to:

Find out she's pregnant.
Consider her options.
Research her options.
Make a decision.
Live with it a while.
Then go forward.

Why not this way???

 

[majora$$hole]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

And then the debate will be, "What really constitutes brain life."

Why can't the timeframe be based on something less ambiguous....like a timeline from inception that allows plenty of time for a woman to:

Find out she's pregnant.
Consider her options.
Research her options.
Make a decision.
Live with it a while.
Then go forward.

Why not this way???

the same criteria we use for "brain death" which i believe is an eeg machine. the reason why not that way is we need something more in line with how we determine when someone is dead legally. imo.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

I am fully pro-choice. As long as the woman chooses to have sex, she has chosen to live with the consequences.

What get me with the whole debate is how, in the case of abortion, the father has absolutely no choice in the matter.

If he wants the child and she doesn't...too freaking bad daddy, no baby for you
If she wants the child and he doesn't...too freaking bad daddy, welcome to 18 years of child support

 

[mac]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

now your getting there mac now you just need to equate the starting of life to the ending of life then you and i will be VERY close to our ways of thinking.

We've already had this discussion. They are two separate sets of circumstances that can't be judged under the same criteria.

 

[CriticalThought]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

If he wants the child and she doesn't...too freaking bad daddy, no baby for you
If she wants the child and he doesn't...too freaking bad daddy, welcome to 18 years of child support

A father does not have to carry a fetus in his body for 9 months.

He has a choice if he doesn't want a baby. It's called using a condom. It's funny how quickly you want to blame a mother for not making choices to protect herself from pregnancy, but you are silent when the same choices are extended to the father.

 

[Technocratic]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Yes, the father and the mother have vastly different interests and the consequences are very different in both of their demands. To equate the two situations is a bit...bizarre. If the father aborts, the mother's alternatives are limited, and much worse than the consequences in either case for the father. If the father has a say, the mother is forced to carry the baby, therefore experiencing the risks and harms of pregnancy, while the father does not. Then, if he gets to opt out and leave, she must raise the child herself, which would hurt the person being born (single parent homes), give it away, or she can be de facto forced to abort, which is serious emotional trauma.

At most, the male loses a potential child that can easily be replaced in the one instance, and has child support in the other.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

A father does not have to carry a fetus in his body for 9 months.

He has a choice if he doesn't want a baby. It's called using a condom. It's funny how quickly you want to blame a mother for not making choices to protect herself from pregnancy, but you are silent when the same choices are extended to the father.

and women have a choice if they don't want a baby...it's called taking the pill, or insisting the guy use a condom, or one of a zillion other BC methods. I'm not blaming anyone (back off on the kneejerk reactions before you pull something) just stating the FACT that the guy has absolutely ZERO say in the issue.

I'll gladly trade you 9 months of carrying a fetus in your body for 18 YEARS worth of support payments for an unwanted child.

 

[Technocratic]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

The pill, however, has health risks.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

If the father aborts, the mother's alternatives are limited, and much worse than the consequences in either case for the father.

how so, specifically? how are the mother's alternative more limited than the father's? in either case there is a parent who wanted a child that does not have it.

If the father has a say, the mother is forced to carry the baby, therefore experiencing the risks and harms of pregnancy, while the father does not.

what "harms" of pregnancy are we talking about here? gaining a little weight?

At most, the male loses a potential child that can easily be replaced in the one instance, and has child support in the other.

so now children are an easily replacable commodity...nice and you apparently have never paid child support, try giving away 1/2 your income every month for 18 years and see how nonchalant you will be about it.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

The pill, however, has health risks.

breathing the air has health risks.

 

[Technocratic]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Yes, but breathing is necessary, as if you do not, you die. Extorting soemone to take a medication that has health risks is quite a bit different. Male contraception has virtually no serious health risks.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Male contraception has virtually no serious health risks.

neither does refusing to have sex with a guy who isn't using male contraception.

 

[Technocratic]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

how so, specifically? how are the mother's alternative more limited than the father's? in either case there is a parent who wanted a child that does not have it.



what "harms" of pregnancy are we talking about here? gaining a little weight?





so now children are an easily replacable commodity...nice and you apparently have never paid child support, try giving away 1/2 your income every month for 18 years and see how nonchalant you will be about it.

There are a number of afflictions that come with pregnancy and birth (potentially). You also experience frequent sickness during the pregnancy. A father experiences nothing, really. He gets off very easy, even with child support. Having to pay child support is in no way comparable to actual physical debilitation and sickness or threat of injury or death. And yes, the father can always replace a lost fetus. They are fairly interchangeable.

 

[Technocratic]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

True, but it still doesn't justify a male having any serious say. He can always change his mind under your framework, and thus saddle the woman with all the burden.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

There are a number of afflictions that come with pregnancy and birth (potentially). You also experience frequent sickness during the pregnancy. A father experiences nothing, really. He gets off very easy, even with child support. Having to pay child support is in no way comparable to actual physical debilitation and sickness or threat of injury or death.

and exactly what % of pregnancies result in this physical debilitation, sickness and death? My wife had 4 kids and she was never "debilitated" or "injured". and FYI, I am a firm believer in abortion when the life of the mother is at risk.

And yes, the father can always replace a lost fetus. They are fairly interchangeable.

Aren't you glad your mother didn't feel that way?

 

[CriticalThought]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

I'll gladly trade you 9 months of carrying a fetus in your body for 18 YEARS worth of support payments for an unwanted child.

You aren't really making a strong case for why fathers should have a say on the issue.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

You aren't really making a strong case for why fathers should have a say on the issue.

how about justice, or fairness or just plain human decency? If a man has to shoulder at least half of the responsibility, then shouldn't he have at least "some" say on the issue?

 

[Technocratic]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

and exactly what % of pregnancies result in this physical debilitation, sickness and death? My wife had 4 kids and she was never "debilitated" or "injured". and FYI, I am a firm believer in abortion when the life of the mother is at risk.

All pregnancy has the risk of these. Avoidance of an undesired risk is sufficient. And all pregnancies cause sickness and behavioural changes, and they are all involving objective pain to the body. At most, child support means you can't spend as much. Woah, harsh. Even so, the argument for yoru side should not be control over abortion, but rather modification to child support laws such that the rate or amount of payment is altered relative to payment capacity. Not "father gets rights to be a deadbeat dad or force an abortion on the mother."

Male abortion (walking away) results in a harm to a born person. Aborton doesn't. That alone is a major difference.

Aren't you glad your mother didn't feel that way?

I wouldn't be here to care. One could just as easily say am I not glad my parents had sex, rather than not. It's not an important question, since I wouldn't be harmed by it. I wouldn't have existed at the time.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Male abortion (walking away) results in a harm to a born person. Aborton doesn't. That alone is a major difference.

and i guess that is where we differ. I don't think you have to be born to be a "person". I have just seen too many dirtbag females use pregnancy as a way to trap a guy. "No baby, you don't need to use a condom, I am on the pill"

 

[BDBoop]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Somebody should start an insurance company for child support. Men pay premiums for as long as they're sexually active. Heaven forfend somebody pops up pregnant, et voila the child support policy kicks in!!

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Somebody should start an insurance company for child support. Men pay premiums for as long as they're sexually active. Heaven forfend somebody pops up pregnant, et voila the child support policy kicks in!!

I could go for that, with one minor change... men and women pay premiums for as long as they're sexually active. that way there is double the payout

 

[MaggieD]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

how about justice, or fairness or just plain human decency? If a man has to shoulder at least half of the responsibility, then shouldn't he have at least "some" say on the issue?

A man does have some say. He's just not the final authority. And he shouldn't be. When a woman knows who the father of her child is, I think he's consulted most of the time. And actually, a man has the ultimate say -- as does a woman -- if the man doesn't want to have a child, he shouldn't have unprotected sex...he shouldn't trust that the woman he's with is handling birth control for the couple...he should do it himself. The fact that many men are too selfish or uncaring to protect themselves is their own problem.