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The Left Needs to Take Back the Constitution

Roe decided the matter. It imposed a legal standard for abortion rights on all 50 states: no state could prohibit abortion before the third trimester, even if there was overwhelming political support for a different standard in any (or all) of those states.
Yes, that is how Rights work. Each individual has their own right to decide if they would like to exercise it or not.
The court took away a fundamental individual human right from half the population and put it in the hands of governments to decide. Governments mind you are overwhelmingly controlled by Men who never have to worry about their laws applying to themselves.
 
You're making even less sense now.

If I state wishes to declare a single-celled zygote a human being with rights, it can do that. If you think they cannot, you simply do not understand the law now that Roe has been overturned.

Who is arguing this? Besides you. You shifted the argument to you have better grounding.

Lol..act like I was born yesterday.

5 cells isn't a human regardless of what trash you need to throw out here.
 
Don't be obtuse. You said once an unenumerated right is held to exist it is no different than an enumerated one and must not be disparaged. That is demonstrably untrue and you don't believe it, else you'd be calling for Lochnar to be overturned.

I didn't realize the Cordelier Test needed to be applied to unenumerated rights. That's the test where If you like it, then it stays. If not, then it goes.

What year are we in? The Courts decided this issue in 1934 - Nebbia v. New York and it definitely put the final nail in the coffin in 1937's West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish.

We can argue till the cows come home about whether the individual right exists or not. I believe, on balance, that it does. Hell, I think the default setting should be that whatever right someone claims, it ought to be held to exist until such point that someone makes a countervailing argument that it doesn't. For the Lochner-era cases, I think the States made such a compelling argument in favor of their regulatory powers under the 10th Amendment. I think the vast preponderance of 10th Amendment reserved powers properly belong to the States. Just not all of them.
 
Uhhh...it's most definitely living. Are you positing that at some random point in gestation non-living matter spontaneously pops out a living baby? That's nuts.

No it needs the sperm and time
You're "that's it" is crazy town, thinking that non-living matter can grow cells and divide while dead/non-living.

Nah
Leaning on a popularity contest demonstrates just how weak your position is.

Not at all. It shows that an extreme portion of society took over.
You're repeating yourself and what you're repeating is ****ing stupid.
Not at all. You want to reference nazis, well I'm telling you what they actually did amd since that's not happening to fetuses you are being dramatic for the sake of being righteous.

If you can paint the people who are pro choice as the same as nazis you have the high ground.

It's clear as day and now you'll call me crazy some more or you'll agree in some weird roundabout way to justify how crazy your opinions are because you think people are committing genocide.
 
What year are we in? The Courts decided this issue in 1934 - Nebbia v. New York and it definitely put the final nail in the coffin in 1937's West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish.

We can argue till the cows come home about whether the individual right exists or not. I believe, on balance, that it does. Hell, I think the default setting should be that whatever right someone claims, it ought to be held to exist until such point that someone makes a countervailing argument that it doesn't. For the Lochner-era cases, I think the States made such a compelling argument in favor of their regulatory powers under the 10th Amendment. I think the vast preponderance of 10th Amendment reserved powers properly belong to the States. Just not all of them.
My point is that the argument that precedents must be honored is a weak one IMO. Lochnar was "settled law" for 30 years. Until it wasn't.

I don't normally get into the abortion debate. Everyone already has made up their minds and there's no point in discussing it.

I actually agree with you that the court needs to be one the side of maximizing individual rights whenever possible. Abortion is unfortunately one of those where there are competing rights at stake.

I get you don't acknowledge the fetus as having rights. However, the state can act in situ for the unborn child and it has rights even if the fetus doesn't.
 
My point is that the argument that precedents must be honored is a weak one IMO. Lochnar was "settled law" for 30 years. Until it wasn't.

I don't normally get into the abortion debate. Everyone already has made up their minds and there's no point in discussing it.

I actually agree with you that the court needs to be one the side of maximizing individual rights whenever possible. Abortion is unfortunately one of those where there are competing rights at stake.

I get you don't acknowledge the fetus as having rights. However, the state can act in situ for the unborn child and it has rights even if the fetus doesn't.

That's actually what I do not understand... under the 10th Amendment, reserved powers go to the State OR to the people. So if something as deeply intimate and personal as deciding whether or not to carry a fetus to term doesn't properly belong to the people - on an individual basis - then what conceivably ever could? I don't understand the reasoning behind the Court's decision to automatically throw the issue to the States to decide.
 
I thought you were aware that laws restrict freedom?
Dont you think its wrong to kill people? Should we just not bother with laws about that?

Tell which level of lunacy you want to take your arguments so I can know in advance how ridiculous they are going to be.
 
Dont you think its wrong to kill people? Should we just not bother with laws about that?

Tell which level of lunacy you want to take your arguments so I can know in advance how ridiculous they are going to be.

A fetus isn't a person. It's a proto-person. That's kind of what defines it.
 
That's actually what I do not understand... under the 10th Amendment, reserved powers go to the State OR to the people. So if something as deeply intimate and personal as deciding whether or not to carry a fetus to term doesn't properly belong to the people - on an individual basis - then what conceivably ever could? I don't understand the reasoning behind the Court's decision to automatically throw the issue to the States to decide.
That's where we differ. I can understand your position and agree with it to some extent.

I don't know if your claim of inability to understand any viewpoint other than your own is a rhetorical device. If so, then I have zero interest in trying to educate you. Suffice to say that there exist other positions that are logically consistent within their own assumptions. I won't bore you with the details of them since you do not understand. Maybe if someday you do gain the ability to understand them, we might speak again.

Or not. Did I mention this topic bores me?
 
A fetus isn't a person. It's a proto-person. That's kind of what defines it.
We werent talking about your support of butchering unborn babies. You said "laws restrict freedom" and I asked about laws against murder. Dont you think laws against murder are appropriate? Needed?
 
That's where we differ. I can understand your position and agree with it to some extent.

I don't know if your claim of inability to understand any viewpoint other than your own is a rhetorical device. If so, then I have zero interest in trying to educate you. Suffice to say that there exist other positions that are logically consistent within their own assumptions. I won't bore you with the details of them since you do not understand. Maybe if someday you do gain the ability to understand them, we might speak again.

Or not. Did I mention this topic bores me?

I'm just referring to the text of the 10th Amendment, Eman.... you can be as patronizing as you like, but there are no deeper meanings there to be learned, no zen to be had, no teaching to be done. There's just the plain, simple and basic text, and it exists there to be read by liberal and conservative alike, with bias nor subjective judgment:

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Just a simple question I want answered... even if you agree with the Court that an individual right to abortion doesn't exist - the 9th Amendment notwithstanding - why do you feel the reserved power to decide the matter properly belongs with the State rather than with the people?
 
We werent talking about your support of butchering unborn babies. You said "laws restrict freedom" and I asked about laws against murder. Dont you think laws against murder are appropriate? Needed?

I'm not an anarchist - we do require criminal laws to deter harm from others. I think that to be a reasonable restriction on freedom, don't you?
 
The right to privacy was mentioned in Dobbs but only to simply say Roe was wrong to base legalizing abortion on a right to privacy. They never explained how it was wrong or why it was wrong. They simply stated that the 14th amendment didn't cover abortion.
From the text of Dobbs
******The Constitution makes no express reference to a right to obtain an abortion, but several constitutional provisions have been offered as potential homes for an implicit constitutional right. Roe held that the abortion right is part of a right to privacy that springs from the First, Fourth, Fifth, Ninth, and Fourteenth Amendments.

*******the Court finds the Fourteenth Amendment clearly does not protect the right to an abortion.

********the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. That provision has been held to guarantee some rights that are not mentioned in the Constitution, but any such right must be “deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition” and “implicit in the concept of ordered liberty.” Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 U. S. 702, 721 (1997) (internal quotation marks omitted).

*******The Court finds that the right to abortion is not deeply rooted in the Nation’s history and tradition.

******** As to precedent, citing a broad array of cases, the Court (the RvW court not the present Court) found support for a constitutional “right of personal privacy.” Id., at 152. But Roe conflated the right to shield information from disclosure and the right to make and implement important personal decisions without governmental interference.

***** When the Court(the RvW court) summarized the basis for the scheme it imposed on the country,.......The scheme Roe produced looked like legislation, and the Court provided the sort of explanation that might be expected from a legislative body.

********Finally, the Court considers whether a right to obtain an abortion is part of a broader entrenched right that is supported by other precedents. The Court concludes the right to obtain an abortion cannot be justified as a component of such a right. Attempts to justify abortion through appeals to a broader right to autonomy and to define one’s “concept of existence” prove too much. Casey, 505 U. S., at 851. Those criteria, at a high level of generality, could license fundamental rights to illicit drug use, prostitution, and the like.

The Alito decision did not address privacy. They mentioned it and dismissed it without explaining why other than it might lead to legalized drug use and prostitution. Those are not compelling reasons to dismiss the right to make private decisions about personal reproduction issues.
What you are unwilling to accept is that no law governing abortion can exist without first deciding when we has humans acquire a basic right to live within the given jurisdiction. We all agree a mother cannot end the life of her ten-week old baby because we all agree a baby, having been born, has a right to live. There is strong disagreement on where the line should be drawn, i.e. birth, viability, first heart beat, or conception.

The Roe majority was only able to establish the standard it did by first declaring that a fetus in the first two trimesters of development as an unperson, a pre-human with no rights, and forbade states for setting an earlier threshold within their jurisdiction. The Supreme Court lacks the authority to impose a person standard on the states. Without that authority, the Roe standard is both meaningless and thus unconstitutional.
 
Yes, that is how Rights work. Each individual has their own right to decide if they would like to exercise it or not.
The court took away a fundamental individual human right from half the population and put it in the hands of governments to decide. Governments mind you are overwhelmingly controlled by Men who never have to worry about their laws applying to themselves.
No, that's not how rights work. Each individual can only exercise their right to decide -- or any other right -- so long as they do not harm another while exercising that right.

Which, as I say and you folks on the left simply cannot process, is why the abortion debate has little to do with privacy. Even under Roe a woman lost her right to privacy (i.e. to abortion) during the third trimester. The debate is really about when a right to life begins.
 
Who is arguing this? Besides you. You shifted the argument to you have better grounding.

Lol..act like I was born yesterday.

5 cells isn't a human regardless of what trash you need to throw out here.
You are arguing this, and you did it again in the last sentence of this post.

Who do you think you're fooling?
 
I'm not an anarchist - we do require criminal laws to deter harm from others. I think that to be a reasonable restriction on freedom, don't you?
As needed yes.

And of course you are good with the states adjudicating the laws regarding murder. Because...that's not in the Constitution either.
 
As needed yes.

And of course you are good with the states adjudicating the laws regarding murder. Because...that's not in the Constitution either.

You can wiggle around the fact all you want, but a fetus is part of the woman's body. Only she should have the power to decide it's fate. It's nobody's business but her own.

The State has no business in her womb. None. Power to the people. Let freedom reign.
 
You can wiggle around the fact all you want, but a fetus is part of the woman's body. Only she should have the power to decide it's fate. It's nobody's business but her own.

The State has no business in her womb. None. Power to the people. Let freedom reign.
You're welcome to that opinion, but it's a very fringe view. Only a small minority of Americans agree that, for example, a fetus in the eighth or ninth month of development possesses no right to life.
 
You can wiggle around the fact all you want, but a fetus is part of the woman's body. Only she should have the power to decide it's fate. It's nobody's business but her own.

The State has no business in her womb. None. Power to the people. Let freedom reign.
:ROFLMAO:

You are obsessed with defending your support of the butchering of the unborn...while knowing the comments were about laws governing murder as a state mandate.
 
You're welcome to that opinion, but it's a very fringe view. Only a small minority of Americans agree that, for example, a fetus in the eighth or ninth month of development possesses no right to life.

I can accept the viability argument, with life & health exceptions.

But as a practical consideration...what woman carries a baby around for 8 months and then decides to have an abortion?? Does it really happen?
 
:ROFLMAO:

You are obsessed with defending your support of the butchering of the unborn...while knowing the comments were about laws governing murder as a state mandate.

I've got nothing against reserved powers going to the States. I'm just against them ALL going to the States.
 
I'm just referring to the text of the 10th Amendment, Eman.... you can be as patronizing as you like, but there are no deeper meanings there to be learned, no zen to be had, no teaching to be done. There's just the plain, simple and basic text, and it exists there to be read by liberal and conservative alike, with bias nor subjective judgment:

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Just a simple question I want answered... even if you agree with the Court that an individual right to abortion doesn't exist - the 9th Amendment notwithstanding - why do you feel the reserved power to decide the matter properly belongs with the State rather than with the people?
Leaving aside that many legal scholars think the X has limited if any legal significance, what do you think "reserved to the States respectively, or to the people" means? Are you talking like a state referendum or proposition election?

Don't the people exercise political power through their elected representatives? Doesn't that mean state legislatures?
 
I've got nothing against reserved powers going to the States. I'm just against them ALL going to the States.
They dont ALL...just the ones not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.
 
I can accept the viability argument, with life & health exceptions.

But as a practical consideration...what woman carries a baby around for 8 months and then decides to have an abortion?? Does it really happen?

Hmm, I feel compelled to say you can wiggle around the fact all you want, but a fetus is part of the woman's body. Only she should have the power to decide its fate. It's nobody's business but her own.

So by what right can you tell her what she can do with her body during the third trimester of pregnancy?
 
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