The James Webb Space Telescope

[Glitch]

PART I of II

Your rage is leading you to create straw men. I never said anything like the federal government is "all powerful."

It is clear that you have not actually read the case. I have, as well as several articles on the decision. Here's a link to the text of the decision:

UNITED STATES v. BUTLER et al.

www.law.cornell.edu

It covers a lot of ground, but in discussing the General Welfare clause and the ages old debate between the Madisonian and Hamiltonian interpretations, it sides with Hamilton:

"Paragraph 41

"Since the foundation of the nation, sharp differences of opinion have persisted as to the true interpretation of the phrase. Madison asserted it amounted to no more than a reference to the other powers enumerated in the subsequent clauses of the same section; that, as the United States is a government of limited and enumerated powers, the grant of power to tax and spend for the general national welfare must be confined to the enumerated legislative fields committed to the Congress. In this view the phrase is mere tautology, for taxation and appropriation are or may be necessary incidents of the exercise of any of the enumerated legislative powers. Hamilton, on the other hand, maintained the clause confers a power separate and distinct from those later enumerated is not restricted in meaning by the grant of them, and Congress consequently has a substantive power to tax and to appropriate, limited only by the requirement that it shall be exercised to provide for the general welfare of the United States. Each contention has had the support of those whose views are entitled to weight. This court has noticed the question, but has never found it necessary to decide which is the true construction. Mr. Justice Story, in his Commentaries, espouses the Hamiltonian position.12 We shall not review the writings of public men and commentators or discuss the legislative practice. Study of all these leads us to conclude that the reading advocated by Mr. Justice Story is the correct one. While, therefore, the power to tax is not unlimited, its confines are set in the clause which confers it, and not in those of section 8 which bestow and define the legislative powers of the Congress. It results that the power of Congress to authorize expenditure of public moneys for public purposes is not limited by the direct grants of legislative power found in the Constitution."

It is clear. The court held that the General Welfare is something that Congress can levy taxes and appropriate spending to provide for.

No, they did not. You are citing the government's position, which they lost. You never read the case, you merely copy/pasted the government's argument.

This is the actual decision the Supreme Court made with regard to the General Welfare clause:

If the novel view of the General Welfare Clause now advanced in support of the tax were accepted, that clause would not only enable Congress to supplant the States in the regulation of agriculture and of all other industries as well, but would furnish the means whereby all of the other provisions of the Constitution, sedulously framed to define and limit the power of the United States and preserve the powers of the States, could be broken down, the independence of the individual States obliterated, and the United States converted into a central government exercising uncontrolled police power throughout the Union superseding all local control over local concerns. P. 297 U. S. 75.

There is no General Welfare power, and there never was. That is just more wishful thinking by dishonest anti-American leftist freaks.

 

[Deuce]

{more whining}

Doesn't matter. The telescope exists. Do you have a time machine? No? Well then both NASA and this telescope exist and there's nothing you can do about it. Whine in a different thread about government overreach. This thread is about a telescope.

Port Primary Mirror Wing deployed! Tomorrow is the starboard side which will leave Webb fully deployed and ready for mirror adjustment and systems checks. L2 injection burn in a couple weeks.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Actually, I do. I started following the project back in 2000. If anything it is an argument for to why NASA should be abolished. In the private sector this project could have been completed within 5 years, instead of the 20+ years it took NASA.

Hmmmm.

Then why wasnt it?

 

[LostInSeattle]

No, they did not. You are citing the government's position, which they lost. You never read the case, you merely copy/pasted the government's argument.

This is the actual decision the Supreme Court made with regard to the General Welfare clause:


There is no General Welfare power, and there never was. That is just more wishful thinking by dishonest anti-American leftist freaks.

Glitch, I both read and quoted from the decision, not the pleadings. The link I provided has the entire decision. Paragraphs 1-77 are the decision. The pleadings are not included.

The court ruled that the Federal government may tax and appropriate (spend) for the General Welfare, but that it may not do so in a manner that intrudes on a state purview. In this case, agricultural regulation was considered a state matter, and the Feds using a tax to accomplish a regulation that the considered to an un-constitutional usurpation of state perogative is the "novel view" referred to here. If you had read and understood the decision, you would know that.

Look up any article on the case, particularly law review or other legal sites if you need confirmation.

 

[phoenix2020]

I was curious where the telescope is headed. Turns out it's Sun-Earth Lagrange point 2 (L2), about 1.5 million km out. I then learned that Lagrange points

"are positions in space where objects sent there tend to stay put. At Lagrange points, the gravitational pull of two large masses precisely equals the centripetal force required for a small object to move with them. These points in space can be used by spacecraft to reduce fuel consumption needed to remain in position."

That's pretty cool. I wonder how they plan to service it tho, if it gets damage or somehow malfunctions. Are we going to develop a (very) long-range shuttle next?

Just as a minor nitpick, JWST is not actually residing at Earth L2; it's in an orbit around L2; I believe about 250,000 mile radius around L2, similar to the distance between the Earth and the moon.

 

[phoenix2020]

For anyone interested in what the first year of research will look like (fingers crossed...) -

The James Webb Space Telescope’s First Year of Extraordinary Science Has Been Revealed

From more than 1,000 proposals, the scientists that hoped to perform the observatory’s historic first studies now know their fate

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[dairyair]

You are mistaken. NASA was unconstitutionally created by a Democrat-controlled Congress in 1958. Like the Department of Education, NASA is an unconstitutional federal agency that Congress had no authority to create.

The real shame here is that you are willing, even eager, to violate the law for your "pure science."

Absolutely. Anything for pure science. Especially if it makes you sooooo happy.

 

[dairyair]

No, they have not. Cite the Supreme Court case. You can't because none exist. So stop making up deliberate lies.


Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the Constitution grants Congress the power of taxation. It is not a power for Congress to do whatever they please for the General Welfare. The Supreme Court has decided this matter already in US v. Butler, 297 U.S. 1 (1936). Unlike you, I have the Supreme Court on my side. All you have are deliberate lies, as usual.

The USSC supreme court is on your side. And NASA was created in 1957 I think was a date you posted?

 

[LostInSeattle]

Just as a minor nitpick, JWST is not actually residing at Earth L2; it's in an orbit around L2; I believe about 250,000 mile radius around L2, similar to the distance between the Earth and the moon.

Oh interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Glitch]

Glitch, I both read and quoted from the decision, not the pleadings.

Still intentionally lying I see. Why am I not surprised? It is what leftist filth do best.

 

[jpn]

Awesome awesomeness.

 

[phoenix2020]

Awesome awesomeness.

YAY!

 

[Deuce]

Bring on the science!!

(in like five months)

It's a fascinating piece of technology, probably one of the most precise devices ever built by humans. Can't wait to see what it shows us.

 

[EnigmaO01]

You are intentionally lying, just like a stereotypical leftist, as demonstrated by your completel lack of a Supreme Court cite to support your ridiculous assertion that the federal government is all powerful.


I cited the Supreme Court case that put your joke of a "General Welfare" clause to make Congress all-powerful to rest once and for all. There is no such clause. The General Welfare is the purpose of the power of taxation, it is not a power unto itself. No matter how you try to twist the facts.

Congress has no authority to create NASA, it never did. But that is what we have come to expect from Democrat filth, a complete disregard for the Supreme Law of the Land.

Go away before I get my fly swatter out. Nobody cares what you think.

 

[EnigmaO01]

It is essentially unserviceable. We do not have a vehicle capable of bringing astronauts out for maintenance, and robotic technology just isn't going to be up to the task of doing it. It's way too precise of a device. If something mission-critical breaks, the JWST is a paperweight.

It was designed with refueling capabilities, though, so if it functions well for it's entire 5-10 year service life, it could theoretically be gassed up again.

Are you sure robotics technology wouldn't be up to snuff? Seems to me it's progressing by leaps and bounds. Ten years is plenty of time tp progress. Robotics have been doing some fairly precise things for years in the manufacturing realm. E.g., circuit boards haven't been soldered for years by human hands. That's some intricate stuff being so tiny.

BTW did you know there were a lot of things that had to be invented for the first time as they went to produce the James Webb telescope and associated hardware?

 

[EnigmaO01]

YAY!

No, they did not. You are citing the government's position, which they lost. You never read the case, you merely copy/pasted the government's argument.

This is the actual decision the Supreme Court made with regard to the General Welfare clause:


There is no General Welfare power, and there never was. That is just more wishful thinking by dishonest anti-American leftist freaks.

Groan! Start your own thread on the constitutionality of NASA! Quit hijacking this thread!

 

[EnigmaO01]

Bring on the science!!

(in like five months)

It's a fascinating piece of technology, probably one of the most precise devices ever built by humans. Can't wait to see what it shows us.

The precise minuscule spacing between the hexagonal gold plated mirrors blows my mind @ 1/1000th of the diameter of a human hair IIRR.

 

[phoenix2020]

The precise minuscule spacing between the hexagonal gold plated mirrors blows my mind @ 1/1000th of the diameter of a human hair IIRR.

Read up on the sound-based cooling system - to my engineering mind, the single most amazing part of the telescope.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Have a very good understanding of how dysfunctional NASA is, as the JWST demonstrates. NASA has been responsible for the entire project from the very beginning, and it still took them more than two decades to complete.

Compare NASA today to what they were in the 1960s. In just nine years NASA managed to put a man on the moon and return him safely back to Earth. Now it takes them more than two decades to put an unmanned satellite into orbit. Utterly pathetic. NASA needs to be abolished. It is unconstitutional anyway.

Lol still have not filled that lawsuit?

 

[phoenix2020]

Are you sure robotics technology wouldn't be up to snuff? Seems to me it's progressing by leaps and bounds. Ten years is plenty of time tp progress. Robotics have been doing some fairly precise things for years in the manufacturing realm. E.g., circuit boards haven't been soldered for years by human hands. That's some intricate stuff being so tiny.

BTW did you know there were a lot of things that had to be invented for the first time as they went to produce the James Webb telescope and associated hardware?

The devil's in the details, although we needn't dig deep.

The issue is fixturing. The fixtures and platform required to service a telescope like this would be enormous - larger than the telescope itself. The issue isn't so much "robots technology needs to catch up" but rather the size/cost to achieve a capability. Could we service James Webb near L2 with an Apollo-era program that ties up ~4% of the US annual GDP for a decade? Yes. Will we? No.

 

[Deuce]

Are you sure robotics technology wouldn't be up to snuff? Seems to me it's progressing by leaps and bounds. Ten years is plenty of time tp progress. Robotics have been doing some fairly precise things for years in the manufacturing realm. E.g., circuit boards haven't been soldered for years by human hands. That's some intricate stuff being so tiny.

Robotics are great for precision in a predetermined, repeat process like manufacturing, yes. However, they're a lot less adept at dealing with unique, individual issues. Especially issues that are unexpected, or perhaps even not entirely identified. So let's say JWST just stops transmitting data one day. There's a hundred different reasons that could happen. A wire broke loose, a micrometeorite hit the antenna, battery failure, circuit breaker popped and will not reset like its supposed to, a computer controlling the antenna failing, a software error because oops we didn't plan for Y2K22. Building a single machine that is capable of both diagnosing and resolving multiple different scenarios while still being small and light enough to actually propel into space... and be reliable enough to not be itself broken when it gets there? That's quite the piece of machinery and it shows the gulf that still exists between AI and the human brain when it comes to adapting to a new problem.

Also, I'm not sure there's a lot of experience at all for remote space-maintenance. Usually we either have astronauts out there with a space-wrench. It took ages to figure out how to build this thing, having to design a new machine specifically to fix this one could take just as long!

BTW did you know there were a lot of things that had to be invented for the first time as they went to produce the James Webb telescope and associated hardware?

Yeah, it's pretty cool!

 

[mike2810]

No, they did not. You are citing the government's position, which they lost. You never read the case, you merely copy/pasted the government's argument.

This is the actual decision the Supreme Court made with regard to the General Welfare clause:


There is no General Welfare power, and there never was. That is just more wishful thinking by dishonest anti-American leftist freaks.

Are you saying Congress has no authority to pass and the President sign the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958? https://history.nasa.gov/spaceact.html

​

 

[Glitch]

Are you saying Congress has no authority to pass and the President sign the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958? https://history.nasa.gov/spaceact.html

Not only were Congress and the President never granted the constitutional authority, they intentionally violated the US Constitution by creating NASA. NASA should never have existed, and the Democrats who created it are criminals.

 

[mike2810]

Not only were Congress and the President never granted the constitutional authority, they intentionally violated the US Constitution by creating NASA. NASA should never have existed, and the Democrats who created it are criminals.

That is your opinion.

Care to share a link to anything legal that backs that up? I provided the legislation that created NASA.
I suspect you will not be able to find anything.

 

[RAMOSS]

There is no substitute for violating the law either. Congress was never authorized to create NASA, but since when has a little thing like the US Constitution ever stopped Democrat filth from violating the law?

They weren't prohibited from creating NASA either.