The Irresponsibility of Focusing on 'Bad Teachers' [W:544]

[Boo Radley]

Just an attempt at humor based on characters out of To Kill A Mockingbird.

OK. NO problem.

 

[Phys251]

Still waiting on Albert or Mach to explain how to properly discern what effect teachers have vs. what effect outside forces have.
Still waiting on them to address the teacher turnover crisis.
Still waiting on them to explain how they think they somehow know better than some of us who have actually taught.
Still waiting on them--and I'm gonna be waiting on this one for a LONG time--to lay down their arms and start discussing constructive solutions on how to support teachers.

Being a teacher is not all that different from being an athlete. Athletes are sometimes consistent from one season to the next, but they can have their "off years." I can confidently say, for example, that my methods of instruction were far more effective in my fifth year than in my first. It wasn't because I had a lot of support--I didn't--but trial and error showed me the way. However, I could have grown a lot faster with better support, and I wouldn't have risked being the one to take the blame were I better supported. And that's one of the many overlooked aspects of this discussion--lack of teacher support. Contrary to some outspoken voices on the Right, most teachers WANT to get better. They WANT to learn new techniques to manage their classroom. They WANT to discover new yet effective ways to teach. And for whatever reason, they are not given those resources they need to improve. And then they take the blame for it. *facepalm*

Why are so many people focused almost solely on the teachers? Why won't they discuss administrators? Or parents? Even some conservatives are starting to come on board with the fact that bad parents are causing a lot of the problems. I think that society is building around the consensus that EVERYONE in the process should be held accountable--teachers of course, but also parents, administrators, and students. I'm 100% behind that. Don't single out one group. EVERYONE needs to pull their weight, not just the teachers. And yes, that means society has an obligation to support the whole process. Without education, we're done.

 

[Comfort Food]

I never got a grade from a lunch aide, certified or not...

Stop being intentionally obtuse. This is ridiculous. You are more intelligent than your posts are conveying. If you don't want to have a rational conversation with me you do not have to respond. Continuing asinine posts like this will be a quick way to end the back and forth.

I understand gym teachers give grades which complicates things. But, the system should change.

Gym teachers are certified, I do not believe they should have to be. I understand that students receive a grade in gym which will complicate the matter of not having a certified teacher, but there are some things that could change.

 

[Comfort Food]

Odeal is a loaded word. Do they have to follow a process? Sure. And the place I work for, which has no union, also has to follow a process. You can call it an odeal, but that doesn't make it one. However, having a process is not equal to not being able to fire them. LaylaZ is correct and you are not.

For political reasons there has to be a means to fire bad teachers on paper. The problem is that the process is often so drawn out, cumbersome, time consuming and expensive that the act of actually doing it is nearly impossible. This varies from state to state obviously, but in practically all states it is much easier to lose your law, medical or hair cutting license than it is to lose your job teaching because you suck at your job. The chances of losing your job solely because you do not perform is virtually nil in most states/districts.

 

[Comfort Food]

Still waiting on Albert or Mach to explain how to properly discern what effect teachers have vs. what effect outside forces have.
Still waiting on them to address the teacher turnover crisis.
Still waiting on them to explain how they think they somehow know better than some of us who have actually taught.
Still waiting on them--and I'm gonna be waiting on this one for a LONG time--to lay down their arms and start discussing constructive solutions on how to support teachers.

1. It doesn't matter. You can evaluate a teacher's ability without looking at results for individual students. It happens in all other fields of education/training outside K-12 daily and works quite well.
2. Pay teachers properly for their work. In most places there is no shortage of teachers. Things like paying a classroom teacher the same as a gym teacher (which is part time work) is ridiculous. Being able to properly pay people for their effort would definitely help slow turnover.
3. Knowing how to teach does not mean you understand socially or how to run an organization. That's like saying we should let mechanics run the automotive industry. Both are equally stupid ideas. Mechanics may know better how to do the daily work, but they may suck at running the shop. I won't tell the mechanic how best to fix my car if I do not know engines, but I can sure give my opinion on how the shop should operate if I have experience/knowledge in running a business.. something most teachers would fall short at.
4. If it isn't the teacher's job to ensure student advocacy by your terms it is not their job to advocate for teachers.

 

[UtahBill]

i would submit that if there are students who are advancing within the school, it cannot be deemed to have failed
now, there are students and their parents who have failed themselves, by not exploiting the educational opportunities made available for them


much as we citizens are not guaranteed happiness but we are assured the right to pursue happiness; those students - with their parents' encouragement - are given the opportunity to pursue an education. not to receive one

nuanced? possibly. but certainly a distinction which needs to be made

exactly.....some students are disadvantaged, 2 of my siblings are not very bright, but others are just lazy.....
if even a minority of the students in class do well, the teacher is doing his/her job, which is presenting and explaining the material.
It isn't teacher's fault if the students don't want to learn....

 

[UtahBill]

Failure can be measured objectively when there are vast numbers of jobs available for which Americans are too poorly educated to qualify.

Personal responsibility was a cultural characteristic of an older and demographically different version of America. It's gone now. It has been replaced by a culture that knows no shame, and which accepts no personal responsibility. That's why public school teachers are being subjected to sustained viterpuration.

and it is teacher's responsibility to bring shame back to our culture? teachers get harassed, even sued, by parents for trivial things, and shame isn't trivial....
Parents who make babies with no intention of doing right by them are the primary cause. When I hear someone say "18 and out", I want to smack them. There is some shame for you....

 

[Mach]

Other professions have procedures as well. I've worked in a lot of them (truck driver, retail, nurse, waiter, cook, salesman, security guard, paramedic). All of them had procedures. Some places fired a lot, some others didn't. You need some more support to convince me it's an ordeal.
However, the fact is undisputable. You can fire teachers, even those with tenure.

You failed to show why there is such a disaprity between teachers fired vs the average of the rest of the market.
You're also being absurd when you claim "you can fire teachers with tenure". The question is, how many teachers are fired statistically compared to other employees in industry (averages or a group of industries, no cherry picking!). It's possible to put a man on the moon Boo, the fact that it almost never happens, tells us something.

Let me know when you want to retract your position.

 

[Phys251]

1. It doesn't matter.

You can evaluate a teacher's ability without looking at results for individual students. It happens in all other fields of education/training outside K-12 daily and works quite well.

Please explain how. If you're able to, you'll have solved one of the biggest educational problems of the century.

2. Pay teachers properly for their work. In most places there is no shortage of teachers. Things like paying a classroom teacher the same as a gym teacher (which is part time work) is ridiculous. Being able to properly pay people for their effort would definitely help slow turnover.

I strongly agree with the last sentence. Jack up teacher salaries to $100,000 and we'll talk.

3. Knowing how to teach does not mean you understand socially or how to run an organization. That's like saying we should let mechanics run the automotive industry. Both are equally stupid ideas. Mechanics may know better how to do the daily work, but they may suck at running the shop. I won't tell the mechanic how best to fix my car if I do not know engines, but I can sure give my opinion on how the shop should operate if I have experience/knowledge in running a business.. something most teachers would fall short at.

Wrong. Again. There are so many variables that go into teaching that are easily overlooked by a casual glance, particularly if that glance is through the eyes of the corporate media. We have tried to explain that other side of the story to you, but for whatever reason, you've continued to stick your head in the sand. Not sure why.

4. If it isn't the teacher's job to ensure student advocacy by your terms it is not their job to advocate for teachers.

Good lord...where are you getting this crap from? Is this the latest Fox "News" talking point? Oh wait, I forgot, the mainstream media has a conservative bias on the subject of education (yes, I went there). So it could be from a number of sources.

What you REFUSE to understand is that your attitude is like that of a young karate student trying to tell his black belt instructor how to run the class. It isn't the student's place to do that. It is the student's place to learn and understand, and THEN, when he has the knowledge to do so, perhaps change how things are run. Otherwise, he'd have no clue what he was doing, and changes could lead to disaster. Such it is with your ideas that are conceived by very poor judgment.

 

[UtahBill]

Stop being intentionally obtuse. This is ridiculous. You are more intelligent than your posts are conveying. If you don't want to have a rational conversation with me you do not have to respond. Continuing asinine posts like this will be a quick way to end the back and forth.


Gym teachers are certified, I do not believe they should have to be. I understand that students receive a grade in gym which will complicate the matter of not having a certified teacher, but there are some things that could change.

If you can't recognize your own incorrect grammatical structure, why are you here criticizing teachers?

 

[Boo Radley]

You failed to show why there is such a disaprity between teachers fired vs the average of the rest of the market.
You're also being absurd when you claim "you can fire teachers with tenure". The question is, how many teachers are fired statistically compared to other employees in industry (averages or a group of industries, no cherry picking!). It's possible to put a man on the moon Boo, the fact that it almost never happens, tells us something.

Let me know when you want to retract your position.

I suspect there is no equality between one market and another. However, you have shown the dispariety exists either. And frankly you must first prove that (with like professions).

And actually, if you don't compare apples to apples, you're the one doing the slective picking.

 

[UtahBill]

It is said that those who can't do, teach. Well, those who can't do, OR teach, just sit back and criticize the efforts of others.
You guys get your degrees and teaching certificates, THEN enter the profession and you can start paying your dues, and I don't mean union dues.....Nobody is going to change the system from the outside....

 

[Mach]

I suspect there is no equality between one market and another. However, you have shown the dispariety exists either. And frankly you must first prove that (with like professions). And actually, if you don't compare apples to apples, you're the one doing the slective picking.

How slippery. Doesn't that feel dirty when you duck and dodge straightforward questions?

I do not have to show a disparity exists, if you already agree that there is one. I wasn't aware that you denied it directly. What you have been denying is the absurd claim that no one made, that "A teacher cannot be fired".

Now Boo, do you believe such a disparity does NOT exist? Surely as a well informed teacher, you must be familiar with this subject.

 

[Albert Di Salvo]

Still waiting on Albert or Mach to explain how to properly discern what effect teachers have vs. what effect outside forces have.
Still waiting on them to address the teacher turnover crisis.
Still waiting on them to explain how they think they somehow know better than some of us who have actually taught.
Still waiting on them--and I'm gonna be waiting on this one for a LONG time--to lay down their arms and start discussing constructive solutions on how to support teachers.

Being a teacher is not all that different from being an athlete. Athletes are sometimes consistent from one season to the next, but they can have their "off years." I can confidently say, for example, that my methods of instruction were far more effective in my fifth year than in my first. It wasn't because I had a lot of support--I didn't--but trial and error showed me the way. However, I could have grown a lot faster with better support, and I wouldn't have risked being the one to take the blame were I better supported. And that's one of the many overlooked aspects of this discussion--lack of teacher support. Contrary to some outspoken voices on the Right, most teachers WANT to get better. They WANT to learn new techniques to manage their classroom. They WANT to discover new yet effective ways to teach. And for whatever reason, they are not given those resources they need to improve. And then they take the blame for it. *facepalm*

Why are so many people focused almost solely on the teachers? Why won't they discuss administrators? Or parents? Even some conservatives are starting to come on board with the fact that bad parents are causing a lot of the problems. I think that society is building around the consensus that EVERYONE in the process should be held accountable--teachers of course, but also parents, administrators, and students. I'm 100% behind that. Don't single out one group. EVERYONE needs to pull their weight, not just the teachers. And yes, that means society has an obligation to support the whole process. Without education, we're done.

Shakes head. There is something ineffably sad when folks don't realize that the era they loved has passed into history.

The forces of the status quo in education are like the Romanovs riding the Russian imperium into the ground.

 

[Albert Di Salvo]

It is said that those who can't do, teach. Well, those who can't do, OR teach, just sit back and criticize the efforts of others.
You guys get your degrees and teaching certificates, THEN enter the profession and you can start paying your dues, and I don't mean union dues.....Nobody is going to change the system from the outside....

My god. Actually, HL Mencken said that "those who can do, do...those who can't do, teach."

 

[Albert Di Salvo]

and it is teacher's responsibility to bring shame back to our culture? teachers get harassed, even sued, by parents for trivial things, and shame isn't trivial....
Parents who make babies with no intention of doing right by them are the primary cause. When I hear someone say "18 and out", I want to smack them. There is some shame for you....

Teachers have only one responsibility. To succeed. Failure subjects teachers to withering criticism.

Would one hire an incompetent attorney or a failed surgeon? Obviously not. One pays them to achieve success.

 

[Mach]

It is said that those who can't do, teach. Well, those who can't do, OR teach, just sit back and criticize the efforts of others.
You guys get your degrees and teaching certificates, THEN enter the profession and you can start paying your dues, and I don't mean union dues.....Nobody is going to change the system from the outside....

The fact that you are suggesting that good reform in the institution of the public education system in the U.S., cannot be solved by the system and all the hundreds of thousands of educators and education administrators in that system, with all the money we collectively are forced to hand them, and that it requires productive individuals from other industries to go do their work for them, is a superb example of how we can tell the system is broken.

Admitting there is an issue is the first step, you took that step, good for you Utah. I'm much more interested in seeing agreement on key issues here, not actually "fixing" anything. I have not fooled myself into believing I am changing the world on DP Now where is that thread about boob size....

 

[UtahBill]

Teachers have only one responsibility. To succeed. Failure subjects teachers to withering criticism.

Would one hire an incompetent attorney or a failed surgeon? Obviously not. One pays them to achieve success.

I nominate this post for the dumbest post of the year....

 

[Boo Radley]

Teachers have only one responsibility. To succeed. Failure subjects teachers to withering criticism.

Would one hire an incompetent attorney or a failed surgeon? Obviously not. One pays them to achieve success.

Actually, those people do get hired.

However, I haven't seen a coherent definition of failure yet.

 

[Boo Radley]

How slippery. Doesn't that feel dirty when you duck and dodge straightforward questions?

I do not have to show a disparity exists, if you already agree that there is one. I wasn't aware that you denied it directly. What you have been denying is the absurd claim that no one made, that "A teacher cannot be fired".

Now Boo, do you believe such a disparity does NOT exist? Surely as a well informed teacher, you must be familiar with this subject.

I have not agreed there is one.

ANd yes, if you go back, he said flatly that tenured teachers can't be fired. Then he amended it to it being an ordeal. I said that word was subjective, but asked that he accept that they can be fired. I also noted union or not, a lot of places have a process. Nowhere did I say I accept your premise, but did ask that when you present evidence, that present it with like professions. This would be the way not to skew the numbers.

 

[Phys251]

Shakes head. There is something ineffably sad when folks don't realize that the era they loved has passed into history.

The forces of the status quo in education are like the Romanovs riding the Russian imperium into the ground.

That's all you've got? Are you surrendering already?

 

[Albert Di Salvo]

I nominate this post for the dumbest post of the year....

In my experience writing is an art. One starts with a conclusion like the post above states. Then one goes on to articulate one's logical steps in reaching the conclusion. That's the way one persuades people.

 

[Albert Di Salvo]

Actually, those people do get hired.

However, I haven't seen a coherent definition of failure yet.

Do you think American students are succeeding compared to the students of the Sinosphere? Compared to European students? Compared to Canadian students?

I have many foreign contacts. They all agree with me on the state of American public education. All Canadians laugh at American public education.

Don't believe me? Ask the non-American members of this forum about what they think of American public schools. The only people who defend the American public schools are those with vested interests to defend in maintenance of the status quo. And let me apologize for using such hurtful language. But sometimes a figurative poke in the eye is just what the doctor ordered.

 

[Albert Di Salvo]

That's all you've got? Are you surrendering already?

I come not to praise Caesar, but to bury him.

 

[Albert Di Salvo]

It's Happy Hour in Santa Cruz so I must take my leave. But as Douglas MacArthur said, "I shall return."