The Irresponsibility of Focusing on 'Bad Teachers' [W:544]

[nota bene]

That you'd even suggest that this requires a study, is absurd. That's what enrages people, including me. You know, the people creating jobs, running businesses, etc. They learned quickly what a good employee is, what a bad employee is, and the importance of good employees. They learn to not hesitate on removing bad employees...they often have a bleeding heart the first few times...then the bad employees burn them until they learn. They have to learn this, to get anything done, to raise the bar, to compete.

The idea that bad employees are not regularly identified and pruned is foreign to every other industry, to millions of suceeding, innovative institutions. Madness man.


Oh gods here we go again. Look here folks, THE SMALLEST INFLUENCE. Hahaha, where is donsutherland...you see this Don? The least.. He's so close to writing "no effect", he's as close as he can get without crossing the line. Too funny. You know what they mean, I know what they mean.

Teachers, want no responsibility, for teaching.

This makes me insane. When I early retire I am seriously considering dedicating my short life to purging unions. I know it will be like hitting a brick wall, I mean, thousands of people with pensions on the line, they'd sooner kill then give it up. But boy it would be fulfilling.



Hahah. Yes you goofball. Somehow magically, the entirety of the U.S. can't seem to figure out the massive, important institution of public education. Oh they figured out nearly every other industry, have created countless new industries, have innovated more than any other nation in history...but educating kids? No, we're just TOO ****ING DUMB to have figured it out...har har.

Playdrive, it has been figured out ages ago. The bureacuracy, including public teachers unions at the lead, prevents reform. That's all it is. Once the blockade is removed, it will reform. It cannot reform playdrive. That's why it hasn't. The idea that we can't figure it out has no plausible evidence to support it. Read their websites, have you? Read the union websites. Anti-privatization, anti-reform, anti-pension reform, anti-tenure reform, anti-measuring performance. It's not all about bad teachers, it's about the inability to reform the government mess of public education, kept in the stone age by union power. That's all. Remove that power and bureaucracy, and things will improve...even with the current set of teachers.

Wow. Just wow.

You said it. Thanks.

 

[nota bene]

I don't think there are very many "bad teachers." Human beings are mostly hardwired to do the best they can do. I doubt teachers are any exception. I think our inner-city school failure (complete, total failure) is due to the system not willing (or able) to adjust to address the different learning styles and cultures that inner-city school students bring to the table. Preservation of, basically, the status quo.

Until our school systems are willing to "turn everything upside down," we will continue trying to use conventional teaching methods to teach kids who, seemingly, don't want to learn. The problem is with the students themselves, their culture, their enviroonment, in my opinion. And until we find a way to reach them, we will continue babysitting children through their dropout date and lamenting their failure.

I agree. President Obama said during the Presidential debates that the solution begins at home. It's a very complicated problem that needs a multi-pronged solution, but it begins with parents modeling the value of education and insisting on performance. Bonus for the system if parents do this is that more attention can be paid to those students who don't have positive parental role models and who need extra inspiration.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Why not? Is my first reaction to that SHOCKING statement. If no system exists to document effective/ineffective teachers then the existance of them can be neither proved nor disproved. If there is no system to identify bad teachers then, one must assume, that there is no means to get rid of them, or to reward the success of the better and best teachers either. If no incentive, except personal drive, honor and pride exist, then many may not give their "all", as it has no financial merit to do so. Hmm....

Note: this same "it does not happen much" argument is often offered, for saying that voter fraud is "small potatoes" too. Reaiity is that if you don't KNOW, for sure, who actually voted as John Q. Voter, then you really can't say either way. But, the fact that there is ANY doubt, at all, opens the door for voter fraud, and someone is bound to walk through a wide open door, eventually. ;-)

There is no reliable evidence that 'bad teachers' are a significant problem under the current documentation of effective/ineffective teachers, as I defined in the OP. Because of that, it's irresponsible to claim that they are significant problem as some do. That's my point and you haven't countered that.,

While you are certainly correct that teachers lack the ability to influence gov't directly, they are under no gag order either, and may post opinions (hopefully as constructive criticism) anonymously in the "editorial sections" of local media and on the internet. They are certainly capable of drawing attention to public issues, and many news organizations LOVE having "the inside scoop".

Teachers usually feel more free to critique government when they have tenure - which interestingly enough people want to get rid of. Depending on the number of teachers criticizing policy and risks people are willing to take, other teachers w/o tenure also feel free to critique policies publicly. And make no mistake, it's a risk to criticize your employer, especially when it's the government. Fortunately, I know quite a few educators who are willing to take that risk.

This "OTHER FACTORS" effect is also "relative" (and in a small sample among peers, virtually self cancelling) since the likely "student talent" mix within any single school is fairly even. The differences between the results, of different teachers (if measured against each other, based on student performance) within that single school and single district would still show SOME "separation" effect among peers, while not likely having a vast difference in the socio-economic mix of the student population.

I agree that "other factors" are relative. However, that doesn't change their ability to decrease the influence a teacher may have on students. If every single student was the same and lived in the same type of environment under the same policies, those policies and environments may still heavily impact a teacher's ability to be effective.

Disagree TOTALLY. In light of your "bad car salesman" example, very much so. Salesmen are paid on a base plus comission basis, the lower the commission, the less likely the manager is to waste office space keeping them, and the less likely they are going to remain salesmen at all, much less at that dealership.

The car salesmen example doesn't rely on how they make their money. The analogy relies on where salesmen are on the scale of influences in the auto industry. They are low on the scale just like teachers are low on the scale of the education system.

It seems your primary "bad teacher" argument boils down to teacher performance DATA, or rather the total lack thereof. Students certainly know who their teacher is, school administration/personnel (HR?) certainly know which students are assigned to which teacher's classes, standardized tests (even GPAs) can determine trends based on that KNOWN relationship. We are in the information age, my friend - COMPUTE statistcs and use them to rate (grade?) teachers. See point #1.

I have no doubt that there are plenty of effective ways to rate teachers although I don't think that teacher effectiveness can be exclusively measured with statistics.

I agree that there are bigger fish to fry, as far public education system problems go, but this "bad teacher" issue seems to be a "no brainer" to me. See point #2. ;-)

I'm glad we agree on that. It's frustrating to see people focus on an issue that is minor compared to many of the major problems facing education. As far as I'm concerned, if the government works with teachers to develop a good evaluation system, then ineffective teachers will be easier to spot, but it's such a small problem from my perspective that it's silly to me how much play it gets in the public.

 

[Ockham]

Yes, but in order to this that you have to do two things. 1. Identify good and bad teachers. 2. Reward teachers based on their work. However, when you start that discussion of identifying good and bad teachers you have a huge backlash (see this thread for example) from public unions and those who support their interest group. I personally would love to see good teachers rewarded for their work. Merit pay in the sense of paying teachers based on progress of test scores is flawed in many ways, but there is no reason teachers can't be paid based on their evaluations. Depending on the grade level teachers are typically evaluated by their supervisors and/or their principals many times throughout the year. If those principals/supervisors were given a budget for salaries they should make the determination for pay the same as any other enterprise. This will never happen in America while the public unions have the control they have though.

If it's a choice between the unions or kids... that's easy, I choose the kids. Granted it's harder to come up with a standard of good teaching, but I really look at the charter schools as the test bed for that. Teachers there like to teach, they want to teach and if they're not good they do get fired - no unions. Those teachers who engage kids, who want to be there should be paid lots. In the public school system, I think it really will come down to a choice. I just hope we (collectively) make the right choice.

 

[nota bene]

Bad teachers do not get canned and good teachers do not get rewarded.

Hasty generalizations aren't going to be rewarded either.

 

[Boo Radley]

I don't think there are very many "bad teachers." Human beings are mostly hardwired to do the best they can do. I doubt teachers are any exception. I think our inner-city school failure (complete, total failure) is due to the system not willing (or able) to adjust to address the different learning styles and cultures that inner-city school students bring to the table. Preservation of, basically, the status quo.

Until our school systems are willing to "turn everything upside down," we will continue trying to use conventional teaching methods to teach kids who, seemingly, don't want to learn. The problem is with the students themselves, their culture, their enviroonment, in my opinion. And until we find a way to reach them, we will continue babysitting children through their dropout date and lamenting their failure.

I don't think it is learnign style. I think it is more the problems are too large to overcome by merely focusing on the teacher. Teachers are important, and I've seen some miricle workers. But they must combat serious social and economic problems that transend the school house.

I also see people working everyday to try and find something that works, so they do turn things upside down. But again, they have to contend with children who have alrger issues, parents who only want their child to get the grade regardles sof the education, and legislators who are constantly pushing things like NCLB on them. Too often, educators are not in the room.

 

[Boo Radley]

I agree. School systems for poor students, inner-city or otherwise, are often unequipped to handle the unique challenges that they bring with them. I think that this and curricula centered around standardized testing are the two main problems of the education system. You can't teach students if you don't acknowledge what they need to learn.

This I buy. But the problem is not coming from educators.

 

[Boo Radley]

you said yourself you experienced bad teachers
you did not think that was a 'significant problem'?
you were deprived of that portion of a good education
those weak teachers were detrimental to your educational progress
they displaced what could have otherwise been excellent teachers
you need a study to tell you this?

Weak and strong is a judgment call. You will find the best of teachers will have someone call them bad, and the worse teachers will have someone think they were the greatest. Especially among poor students, the ability to connect, if the teacher lacks all skill at teaching, will mean a lot to that student. When we talk good and bad, we should ahve some idea what we mean by that. Maggie was quite correct when she said that she thought most humans want to do well. Most, not all, most teachers do try. So, what makes one good and the other bad.

 

[justabubba]

Weak and strong is a judgment call. You will find the best of teachers will have someone call them bad, and the worse teachers will have someone think they were the greatest. Especially among poor students, the ability to connect, if the teacher lacks all skill at teaching, will mean a lot to that student. When we talk good and bad, we should ahve some idea what we mean by that. Maggie was quite correct when she said that she thought most humans want to do well. Most, not all, most teachers do try. So, what makes one good and the other bad.

as the supreme court said when asked to define pornography
'i will know it when i see it'
while i agree most humans intend to do well, there are huge numbers, a distinct minority, who don't give a rip. they are easy to spot. they do not expend extra effort. when it is a matter of imposing on them or another party, they will ALWAYS select the other party to lose out. they often abuse their authority. frequently do not comply with well established rules and expectations, such as timeliness. they are known by their inclinations to take shortcuts whenever the opportunity arises
and unfortunately, they are found among our teaching population. there continued presence hurts our children's opportunities to receive a good education

and when the bulk (not one or two) of one's co-workers believes you are a crappy employee, you are definitely a lousy employee, just as when the bulk (not one or two) of one's co-workers believes you are a great employee, it will also be true that you are really an exceptional employee

 

[Layla_Z]

Bad teachers do not get canned and good teachers do not get rewarded.

Neither of those statements are true. There you go with the generalizations again.

 

[Layla_Z]

as the supreme court said when asked to define pornography
'i will know it when i see it'
while i agree most humans intend to do well, there are huge numbers, a distinct minority, who don't give a rip. they are easy to spot. they do not expend extra effort. when it is a matter of imposing on them or another party, they will ALWAYS select the other party to lose out. they often abuse their authority. frequently do not comply with well established rules and expectations, such as timeliness. they are known by their inclinations to take shortcuts whenever the opportunity arises
and unfortunately, they are found among our teaching population. there continued presence hurts our children's opportunities to receive a good education

and when the bulk (not one or two) of one's co-workers believes you are a crappy employee, you are definitely a lousy employee, just as when the bulk (not one or two) of one's co-workers believes you are a great employee, it will also be true that you are really an exceptional employee

It's really not that easy to judge teachers. It depends so much on the one doing the evaluating. Some principals will see a classroom of students sitting quietly at their desks doing work and think the teacher is doing a great job. He'll see another classroom of students sitting on their desks or moving around and talking and think the teacher is doing a terrible job. The problem is that the first group is doing yet another word search and the second group is engaged in intelligent discussion about the topic they are studying. I'm not saying it is impossible to evaluate teachers but it takes more effort that some principals are willing to give.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

you said yourself you experienced bad teachers
you did not think that was a 'significant problem'?
you were deprived of that portion of a good education
those weak teachers were detrimental to your educational progress
they displaced what could have otherwise been excellent teachers
you need a study to tell you this?

No, I need a study to tell me that ineffective teachers are a significant problem as defined in the OP. You and others don't seem to be reading my comments using the definition of 'significant' that I provided in the OP. Try that and then reply.

As far as my own individual experience, those people didn't really deprive me of much because my education was phenomenal in spite of them because of all the other factors surrounding my education which a lot of poor kids don't have.

 

[justabubba]

It's really not that easy to judge teachers. It depends so much on the one doing the evaluating. Some principals will see a classroom of students sitting quietly at their desks doing work and think the teacher is doing a great job. He'll see another classroom of students sitting on their desks or moving around and talking and think the teacher is doing a terrible job. The problem is that the first group is doing yet another word search and the second group is engaged in intelligent discussion about the topic they are studying. I'm not saying it is impossible to evaluate teachers but it takes more effort that some principals are willing to give.

i so agree with you that principals are very often poor evaluators of teaching talent
while i would never object to their input, more than their own observations need to be factored into assessment of a given teacher's performance

 

[Albert Di Salvo]

There are usually several contributing causes for any problem. I think this is true for public education in America.

Having said that it is necessary to be honest enough to acknowledge that bad teachers and the way the teaching occupation is organized does constitute a contributing cause of the decline in American public instruction.

I don't think reform is possible because there are too many vested economic interests in maintenance of the status quo in public education. A revolution will be necessary to change a dying public school system.

 

[Comfort Food]

It's really not that easy to judge teachers. It depends so much on the one doing the evaluating. Some principals will see a classroom of students sitting quietly at their desks doing work and think the teacher is doing a great job. He'll see another classroom of students sitting on their desks or moving around and talking and think the teacher is doing a terrible job. The problem is that the first group is doing yet another word search and the second group is engaged in intelligent discussion about the topic they are studying. I'm not saying it is impossible to evaluate teachers but it takes more effort that some principals are willing to give.

Welcome to the real world.

 

[Comfort Food]

i so agree with you that principals are very often poor evaluators of teaching talent
while i would never object to their input, more than their own observations need to be factored into assessment of a given teacher's performance

If you honestly believe that there is nobody at the local level who is qualified or capable of managing teacher salaries then I'd say you have identified the biggest threat to public education. Do you honestly think that a teacher's union representing everyone in an all or nothing approach and some elected civilian officials know how to best pay a teacher in a classroom?

You know who sucks at evaluating my performance? The person who determines how much money I make. That is why my supervisor makes the case for me. There is always someone at the local level who can evaluate teacher performance. There are multiple people over a teacher where one of their primary job responsibilities is doing just that. If individuals suck at their job they should be let go as well, it should not be an excuse to bring down the entire educational system in America with crappy policies of never letting bad employees go and never rewarding good teachers.

 

[Mach]

Maggie was quite correct when she said that she thought most humans want to do well. Most, not all, most teachers do try. So, what makes one good and the other bad.

Are you suggesting that because someone tries, that:
1. they could not try even harder if they were under a good management structure? (And get use to it to the point it's not really trying harder...habits and all that)
2. That they should not be fired because you think most humans "try", or that they verbally tell you, they "tried"?

 

[Comfort Food]

Neither of those statements are true. There you go with the generalizations again.

Both statements are true. What percentage bad tenured teachers get let go for performance issues in America? How many good teachers receive an increase in their living situation for being a good employee? In New York City between 2006 and 2011 only 32 of 132,000 teachers were fired (.02%). In Chicago, .1% of teachers were dismissed for performance related issues. Compare that to the real world and you will see glaring differences. More doctors/lawyers lose their licenses to practice their craft than tenured teachers get let go for performance issues. In many cases the only way to get rid of a tenured teacher is if they sexually abuse a child and at that it can sometimes be a long, difficult and expensive task to make it happen. When percentages are less than 1% it is safe to conclude that there is zero accountability.

 

[Comfort Food]

I'm not saying it is impossible to evaluate teachers but it takes more effort that some principals are willing to give.

And not for nothing, but if the evaluations actually meant anything perhaps they would be willing to give them more effort. As it stands they are just mostly formalities that mean nothing.

 

[Boo Radley]

Are you suggesting that because someone tries, that:
1. they could not try even harder if they were under a good management structure? (And get use to it to the point it's not really trying harder...habits and all that)
2. That they should not be fired because you think most humans "try", or that they verbally tell you, they "tried"?

1. I don't know. What would be agood mangament structure. NCLB was criminally stupid. What would you call good?

2. No, those who are incompetent should be fired, and most are. But the number is really so much smaller than you believe. And you also don't realize that there are places where there is no one to take their place, no will take their place.

I believe in be held responsible for you work, and to have oversight and review, meaningful review. I just don't see many proposing anything that would do that. Like I said, NCLB was criminally stupid. Children are not shoes. They ahve minds and can refuse. And they have parents who can make things even more difficult. And you have leaders throwing in stupid (NCLB). I want to see us actually trying to do something useful, intelligent, and practical. Please feel free to present any idea that fits that critieria.

 

[Boo Radley]

as the supreme court said when asked to define pornography
'i will know it when i see it'
while i agree most humans intend to do well, there are huge numbers, a distinct minority, who don't give a rip. they are easy to spot. they do not expend extra effort. when it is a matter of imposing on them or another party, they will ALWAYS select the other party to lose out. they often abuse their authority. frequently do not comply with well established rules and expectations, such as timeliness. they are known by their inclinations to take shortcuts whenever the opportunity arises
and unfortunately, they are found among our teaching population. there continued presence hurts our children's opportunities to receive a good education

and when the bulk (not one or two) of one's co-workers believes you are a crappy employee, you are definitely a lousy employee, just as when the bulk (not one or two) of one's co-workers believes you are a great employee, it will also be true that you are really an exceptional employee

I don't disagree with you, but I do question whether everyone has that good an eye.

 

[John Tucker]

Most of the US education system from K-12 through a number of the college majors are just HORRIBLE. Once you get pass the 4th and 5th grade and learn all of the basic skills of reading, writing and basic math, you have the remaining grade levels and even throughout college, where it's just pure regurgitation of mostly useless nonsense that has no applicable practicality.

I'm not saying all US education systems and college majors are like this, but too many are. As a result, these horrible systems produce the bad teachers in the K-12 system. We need a better system that BETTER prepares students for life, REAL LIFE, in middle school and high school. Instead, middle school and high school have turned into systems to get someone a high SAT score so they can get into the local state college, which isn't a BAD thing but the issue is that nobody is learning a damn thing.

 

[justabubba]

Most of the US education system from K-12 through a number of the college majors are just HORRIBLE. Once you get pass the 4th and 5th grade and learn all of the basic skills of reading, writing and basic math, you have the remaining grade levels and even throughout college, where it's just pure regurgitation of mostly useless nonsense that has no applicable practicality.

I'm not saying all US education systems and college majors are like this, but too many are. As a result, these horrible systems produce the bad teachers in the K-12 system. We need a better system that BETTER prepares students for life, REAL LIFE, in middle school and high school. Instead, middle school and high school have turned into systems to get someone a high SAT score so they can get into the local state college, which isn't a BAD thing but the issue is that nobody is learning a damn thing.

have to strongly disagree with you here
it is those who are able to achieve high SAT/ACT scores to get into college which represent the positive aspect of today's public schools
that they scored well indicates that they must have learned a substantial amount
these are the kids who will go on to achieve success and live out the American dream

it is those who went thru the system and emerged without good scores, and/or without the inclination to take the tests necessary to gain college admittance that we should be concerned about
they are the ones who are going to be competing for all those 'good-paying' jobs that require only a high school education. [/s] those jobs are drying up

and the ones most affected by our current school system are that 30% who drop out. those who don't even have a high school education to offer to a prospective employer. they will be competing against the illegal aliens for those low-skill jobs that are even worse paying than those above. these are the kids who will go on to fill our welfare rolls, have kids out of wedlock, occupy our courts and live in our prisons ... those things which cost society a ton of money long-term, often because we failed to provide them with an appropriate education

 

[John Tucker]

have to strongly disagree with you here
it is those who are able to achieve high SAT/ACT scores to get into college which represent the positive aspect of today's public schools
that they scored well indicates that they must have learned a substantial amount
these are the kids who will go on to achieve success and live out the American dream

it is those who went thru the system and emerged without good scores, and/or without the inclination to take the tests necessary to gain college admittance that we should be concerned about
they are the ones who are going to be competing for all those 'good-paying' jobs that require only a high school education. [/s] those jobs are drying up

and the ones most affected by our current school system are that 30% who drop out. those who don't even have a high school education to offer to a prospective employer. they will be competing against the illegal aliens for those low-skill jobs that are even worse paying than those above. these are the kids who will go on to fill our welfare rolls, have kids out of wedlock, occupy our courts and live in our prisons ... those things which cost society a ton of money long-term, often because we failed to provide them with an appropriate education

Well, I'm not saying that teaching to the test and obtaining high SAT scores aren't important, what I'm talking about is the system of education period. It isn't just high school, even college, you have outdated education, irrelevant theories and a focus only on regurgitation and NOT quality research, development, critical thinking and creativity. You don't learn how to start a business in school, high school OR college. You don't learn how to invest in school, high school OR college. What you DO learn is how to pass "the test," whatever "test" that is whether it's the SAT or (insert college exam here).

Take it from a guy with two bachelor's degrees, a master's degree and with prospects of starting a PhD soon, I have seen all of the ins and outs of the education system.

 

[justabubba]

Well, I'm not saying that teaching to the test and obtaining high SAT scores aren't important, what I'm talking about is the system of education period. It isn't just high school, even college, you have outdated education, irrelevant theories and a focus only on regurgitation and NOT quality research, development, critical thinking and creativity. You don't learn how to start a business in school, high school OR college. You don't learn how to invest in school, high school OR college. What you DO learn is how to pass "the test," whatever "test" that is whether it's the SAT or (insert college exam here).

Take it from a guy with two bachelor's degrees, a master's degree and with prospects of starting a PhD soon, I have seen all of the ins and outs of the education system.

our schools do appear to be well serving those who aspire to attend college
the colleges and universities are near filled to capacity, with extended wait lists at the better one
but for the other students, who are not on the college prep track, i have to agree
we should borrow from the germans and provide a true vocational curriculum, so that when the kids emerge from school, business and industry has an employment-ready high school graduate to hire
not unlike the way HS ROTC is presently the feeder system for the military
but those 30% who drop out, they present the biggest problem, both now and later
if we can re-design the system so that they are able to emerge with both a diploma and life skills we will have saved society the cost of a huge future burden, by the savings in welfare, policing, judiciary and jail expenses not otherwise incurred
and i cannot agree strongly enough that we should teach our kids to become self employed as well as being trained as another's employee. the contracting of one's services out, project to project, is the direction that this economy is moving towards every day, and we provide no direction how this can be accomplished so that they know how to do this successfully once they matriculate