The horrible war on Ukraine is exposing some other problems with the west on war (1 Viewer)

[Craig234]

As we so rightly are seeing the horror of Putin acting like a monster, lying his way to mass murder of innocent people for his own pursuit of power, it's exposing history of western actions as much worse than people have treated them - wars like Vietnam and Iraq based on lies also - and how we care more about some victims of wrong wars more than others.

We watch in disgust and fury as we see China quietly maneuvering to support Putin for their own political agenda and benefit - which exposes countries like the US and UK doing the same thing for Saudi Arabia while they murder an American resident who was a critic of them (just like Putin has), they execute people for 'wrong beliefs', and most importantly wage a wrong war on Yemen for reasons as bad or worse than Putin's war on Ukraine.

Saudi Arabia's internal politics include a king who valued ruthlessness in someone wanting to rule, and the current crown prince wasn't in line to rule, he wasn't an 'eldest son', but he saw waging a ruthless war on Yemen as a way to impress the King with his ruthlessness - and it worked and the King made him the effective and next ruler. The US's and UK's very different responses because they get benefits from Saudi Arabia are shown as terrible.

 

[Craig234]

Really, as we watch most Russians just accepting Putin's propaganda on the war on Ukraine, still supporting him, not concerned about the war, while a small minority are heroes going to jail on principle against it, is it not obvious to compare Americans who have heard the phrase 'Yemen war', but just don't give a crap, and keep supporting politicians who enable the war, while a small number of Americans protest such policies, albeit with less sacrifice?

We see Russians indifferent and think how can they be so horrible, we see Americans indifferent on Yemen and think what? It's a hell of a lesson for us. Of course, have you seen any mention of that in US media? Putin controls his media so they don't talk about the war; our media is free, but they talk very little about the Yemen war... another lesson for us.

 

[StillBallin75]

That American foreign policy has betrayed our own stated principles since the inception of the country shouldn't be news to anyone who pays attention (or has a sound reading of history).

 

[Craig234]

That American foreign policy has betrayed our own stated principles since the inception of the country shouldn't be news to anyone who pays attention (or has a sound reading of history).

My point is how much the Ukraine war exposes the issue. It makes if much clearer than it has been.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

We see Russians indifferent and think how can they be so horrible, we see Americans indifferent on Yemen and think what? It's a hell of a lesson for us. Of course, have you seen any mention of that in US media? Putin controls his media so they don't talk about the war; our media is free, but they talk very little about the Yemen war... another lesson for us.

Certainly. I started a thread that touched on US propaganda for foreign wars a while ago.

The military entertainment complex

I'm sure many people have heard of the military industrial complex, but many have not heard of it's cousin, the military entertainment complex. Most people don't realize the military has any connections with the film industry. However, the DOD actually has an entire office dedicated solely to...

debatepolitics.com

The US really ****ed shit up in Yemen and more directly in Iraq.

The US bombed Al Jazeera’s office in Kabul during the 2001 US invasion of Afghanistan, and attacked the media outlet multiple times during the 2003 Iraq invasion, including the killing of Ayoub, despite the fact that Al Jazeera supplied the Pentagon with their headquarter’s coordinates in Baghdad in February 2003. (Source)

Now, I do think Russia's behavior in this conflict is distinctly worse than the US in Yemen and Iraq, though I'm sure that's small comfort to the dead in both those places.

Hopefully this conflict can turn into a broader anti-interventionist movement domestically and people can become more aware of American exceptionalism propaganda.

 

[Craig234]

Certainly. I started a thread that touched on US propaganda for foreign wars a while ago.

The military entertainment complex

I'm sure many people have heard of the military industrial complex, but many have not heard of it's cousin, the military entertainment complex. Most people don't realize the military has any connections with the film industry. However, the DOD actually has an entire office dedicated solely to...

debatepolitics.com

The US really ****ed shit up in Yemen and more directly in Iraq.


Now, I do think Russia's behavior in this conflict is distinctly worse than the US in Yemen and Iraq, though I'm sure that's small comfort to the dead in both those places.

Hopefully this conflict can turn into a broader anti-interventionist movement domestically and people can become more aware of American exceptionalism propaganda.

This has long been the case. LBJ and John Wayne were political enemies, but LBJ had the military provide assistance for Wayne's movie on Vietnam because it fit his agenda. Meanwhile, IIRC the Pentagon demanded changes to other Vietnam films they wouldn't make so they didn't get help. This can be a big issue for movie studios who care a lot about the finances. At least it's not China where they'd be jailed.

 

[Craig234]

Now, I do think Russia's behavior in this conflict is distinctly worse than the US in Yemen and Iraq, though I'm sure that's small comfort to the dead in both those places.

I didn't compare the US on Yemen to Russia on Ukraine. I think Saudi Arabia's behavior on Yemen is pretty comparable to Putin on Ukraine; and the US/UK behavior on Yemen supporting Saudi Arabia is pretty comparable to China's support of Putin.

Hopefully this conflict can turn into a broader anti-interventionist movement domestically and people can become more aware of American exceptionalism propaganda.

That would be a good thing but it's quite unlikely I suspect. How much are you hearing any such points in our media? The commentary I linked is from a good independent British group, not 'big media'.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

I didn't compare the US on Yemen to Russia on Ukraine.

I know. I felt the need to add that qualifier because I've seen far too many on the left use the crimes of the US in some sort of attempt to deflect from Russia's actions. So for anyone reading I wanted to make it clear I was not doing that.

That would be a good thing but it's quite unlikely I suspect. How much are you hearing any such points in our media? The commentary I linked is from a good independent British group, not 'big media'.

I'm not sure how old you are. I'm 23. It is pretty established that that millennials and GenZ are more progressive than previous generations. A lot of my peers don't get their news from our media. 15-30 year olds generally aren't watching CNN or anything. For better or worse, they are seeing progressive talking points from TikTok's, twitter, and memes. I'll find some examples.

 

[Craig234]

I know. I felt the need to add that qualifier because I've seen far too many on the left use the crimes of the US in some sort of attempt to deflect from Russia's actions. So for anyone reading I wanted to make it clear I was not doing that.

Fair.

I'm not sure how old you are. I'm 23. It is pretty established that that millennials and GenZ are more progressive than previous generations. A lot of my peers don't get their news from our media. 15-30 year olds generally aren't watching CNN or anything. For better or worse, they are seeing progressive talking points from TikTok's, twitter, and memes. I'll find some examples.

But the 'propaganda on American exceptionalism' you mention, where are those young people being exposed to that? Since you mentioned that propaganda, I think that's largely a media thing, which is what I mentioned.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

But the 'propaganda on American exceptionalism' you mention, where are those young people being exposed to that? Since you mentioned that propaganda, I think that's largely a media thing, which is what I mentioned.

Movies, their parents, conservative TikTok's, "Ben Shaprio own SJW" compilations. All the same social pressures that are in regular culture still exist on twitter/TikTok/reddit etc. Or at least a mirror of them does. However, you are far more likely to be exposed to leftist arguments against American exceptionalism on twitter than if you only watch CNN. As someone who grew up fairly online, you are also much more likely to have online friends in other countries which often pokes a lot of holes by itself in American Exceptionalism.

 

[Craig234]

Movies, their parents, conservative TikTok's, "Ben Shaprio own SJW" compilations. All the same social pressures that are in regular culture still exist on twitter/TikTok/reddit etc. Or at least a mirror of them does. However, you are far more likely to be exposed to leftist arguments against American exceptionalism on twitter than if you only watch CNN. As someone who grew up fairly online, you are also much more likely to have online friends in other countries which often pokes a lot of holes by itself in American Exceptionalism.

It's unfortunate the phrase 'American exceptionalism' has been corrupted to be a false cover for abuse of power, perhaps racial superiority at times, etc. I think there is a valid meaning to the phrase that is hurt by its corruption - the US is exceptional in very important ways, such as our championing democratic government over tyranny, though right now I think we can learn from Ukraine in some ways.

 

[Craig234]

Bush: We have to stop the threat of biological weapons from Iraq by invading them and destroying the weapons! Here, we have evidence! Listen to Colin Powell talk about anonymous Iraqi sources that turn out to be one Iraqi man saying things to get asylum in Germay the US never talked to, who the Germans warned us was unreliable.

Putin: We have to stop the threat of biological weapons from Ukraine in their labs by invading them and de-militarizing the weapons! Here, we have evidence! Listen to American journalist Tucker Carlson misrepresent comments by the administration admitting the labs.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

It's unfortunate the phrase 'American exceptionalism' has been corrupted

It hasn't been corrupted. It was a phrase that was created with meaning it holds today.

American exceptionalism is the idea that the United States is inherently different from other nations.[2] Its proponents argue that the values, political system, and historical development of the U.S. are unique in human history, often with the implication that the country is both destined and entitled to play a distinct and positive role on the world stage. (Source)

It means what it has always meant. That isn't to say that any sentiment that America is exceptional is 'American Exceptionalism'. There are certainly things that are exceptional about America, such as our national parks.

the US is exceptional in very important ways, such as our championing democratic government over tyranny

I mean...so...the narrative that the US is some sort of champion for democracy (or more so than other nations are) is American Exceptionalism. When we have supported democracies I think that is a good thing, but it is false that the US does so in an exceptionally positive way compared to other countries.

 

[Craig234]

It hasn't been corrupted. It was a phrase that was created with meaning it holds today.

It's been corrupted from another better meaning it can have. I'm not arguing it was corrupted in the sense that it used to widely have that better meaning.

It means what it has always meant. That isn't to say that any sentiment that America is exceptional is 'American Exceptionalism'. There are certainly things that are exceptional about America, such as our national parks.

Ya, I think the 'better' definition has a lot of truth to it. When it means, 'isn't the idea of valuing human life and individual freedoms better than totalitarianism', the US has been exceptional; when it comes to the US *being* that totalitarian force over others, ya.

I mean...so...the narrative that the US is some sort of champion for democracy (or more so than other nations are) is American Exceptionalism. When we have supported democracies I think that is a good thing, but it is false that the US does so in an exceptionally positive way compared to other countries.

The US *has* been exceptional compare to some other countries.

Look at China and Russia today, for example. The US is the most important global advocate for freedom over their tyranny, despite our big problems, there's no comparison.

But on the other hand, Ukraine is showing a better respect for those principles now than the US, as they are passionately supporting them in their country while the US has become a plutocracy filled with corruption and people who support propaganda lies. Of course until Zelensky Ukraine has pretty much always had terrible corrupt governing.

 

[Luce]

Today I learned we can't oppose Russian aggression because other places have wars, too.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

As we so rightly are seeing the horror of Putin acting like a monster, lying his way to mass murder of innocent people for his own pursuit of power, it's exposing history of western actions as much worse than people have treated them - wars like Vietnam and Iraq based on lies also - and how we care more about some victims of wrong wars more than others.

We watch in disgust and fury as we see China quietly maneuvering to support Putin for their own political agenda and benefit - which exposes countries like the US and UK doing the same thing for Saudi Arabia while they murder an American resident who was a critic of them (just like Putin has), they execute people for 'wrong beliefs', and most importantly wage a wrong war on Yemen for reasons as bad or worse than Putin's war on Ukraine.

Saudi Arabia's internal politics include a king who valued ruthlessness in someone wanting to rule, and the current crown prince wasn't in line to rule, he wasn't an 'eldest son', but he saw waging a ruthless war on Yemen as a way to impress the King with his ruthlessness - and it worked and the King made him the effective and next ruler. The US's and UK's very different responses because they get benefits from Saudi Arabia are shown as terrible.

The primary responsibility of the American President is the welfare of America and American citizens.

At times that requires tolerating the bad actions of foreign leadership. Other times, when doing so won’t present a potential harm to America/Americans, our leadership acts to help.

Always being the helpful good guy is a laudable aspiration however, it is not a realistic goal.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

My point is how much the Ukraine war exposes the issue. It makes if much clearer than it has been.

Only to those that haven’t been paying attention.

 

[Tigerace117]

As we so rightly are seeing the horror of Putin acting like a monster, lying his way to mass murder of innocent people for his own pursuit of power, it's exposing history of western actions as much worse than people have treated them - wars like Vietnam and Iraq based on lies also - and how we care more about some victims of wrong wars more than others.

We watch in disgust and fury as we see China quietly maneuvering to support Putin for their own political agenda and benefit - which exposes countries like the US and UK doing the same thing for Saudi Arabia while they murder an American resident who was a critic of them (just like Putin has), they execute people for 'wrong beliefs', and most importantly wage a wrong war on Yemen for reasons as bad or worse than Putin's war on Ukraine.

Saudi Arabia's internal politics include a king who valued ruthlessness in someone wanting to rule, and the current crown prince wasn't in line to rule, he wasn't an 'eldest son', but he saw waging a ruthless war on Yemen as a way to impress the King with his ruthlessness - and it worked and the King made him the effective and next ruler. The US's and UK's very different responses because they get benefits from Saudi Arabia are shown as terrible.

Of course it does. Just look at how people reacted to Ukrainian refugees versus Syrian ones.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Look at China and Russia today, for example.

Virtually every country looks exceptional compared to them.

The US is the most important global advocate for freedom over their tyranny, despite our big problems, there's no comparison.

We only really support democracy/freedom when it benefits us. We have been just as quick to support dictators and authoritarian regimes when it suites us. Just look at Saudi Arabia.

For better or worse, they are seeing progressive talking points from TikTok's, twitter, and memes. I'll find some examples.

From a few progressive meme pages and groups I am in.