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The Holocaust Was The Jews Fault


Very well. We will discuss it there.
 
Gardener said:
By best estimates, approximately 600,000 Arabs were displaced, most of whom did not own land and many of which left of their own accord.
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I've seen the number of people displaced estimated from 520,000 to over 1,000,000. From the accounts that I've read, those people either fled, which doesn't sound very voluntary to me, or they were forced off their land. However if you would like to get me a link I'd be happy to read it.


Honestly, I was unaware of such an event. Again, if you could post a link I would like to see such information. It doesn't surprise me. Eye for an eye, combined with reports that aren't entirely accurate... It doesn't surprise me.
 

I never suggested that the Palestinians should have exclusive ownership. When did I say that? Sharing is caring, all that jazz.
 

I believe that deep down, we all have the same basic premise of "right" vs "wrong." I believe that that can be corrupted, but I believe that corruption can be clarified. When a man who hates you does wrong to you, if you return in kind, you will galvanize that hatred. But if you offer him the other cheek, if you treat him as you would have him treat you, show him that you are unafraid, and that you will not be turned away, you will change him. As long as someone can see in crystal clarity what is right, I will say that they will most of the time, if not always, make the right decision.

I believe that the problem of Islamic terrorism is a problem of Islamic hatred. I believe that while we can certainly attempt and probably succeed in beating this problem into submission for what might be five to twenty years, this we cannot beat this problem out of existence.
 

I don't think that would have been the result, and if it were there would be all sorts of consequences for that. I a man refuses to relocate to a ghetto and is shot in front of the German populace, such an event would effect the German populace. The Nazis would have to clean up, use ammunition that they didn't want to use, hence the development of concentration camps and the use of zyclon b. The main benefit of course is the effect on the German populace. If the sentiment of the ethnic Germans could be mustered in the right direction, that would be all the Jews would need.

You are right that this is a sensitive topic, and by your saying they did nothing you are implying that they welcomed their own demise.
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I certianly didn't intend to imply such a thing.


Certainly a fair criticism.
 

I can understand that you are thinking in terms of people can only take so much until they lash out. Your consequences however I feel are wrong. First of all cleaning up a Jew off the street after they were killed many times was done off the slave labor of the Jews themselves. Second, Hitler was in no short supply of ammo. In a military dictatorship, ammo, and other weapons of war are constantly being made. When Hitler started rounding up the Jews he was also preparing to conquer the world, I can't help but think one bullet through the head of a Jewish resister would put their ammo numbers in the red.

Finally, there is no telling what would have been done to the German population, one can only take the facts that were present and speculate from there. There were Germans who were aware of what the Nazis were doing and silently and covertly resisted. But let's not forget that Hitler controlled communication mediums. Think about the US during the Great Depression people listened to FDR with great fever because he was seen as a savior of their plight. Hitler was seen the same way in Germany at the time because of the state of Germany. So with Hitler giving people great hope and controlling what information they were given, makes for a combination that does not lend to the idea of the German populace rising up against Hitler.
 

A task that could be refused.


You're right. Merely a minor inconvenience if that.


No doubt such a feat would be difficult and painful not without risk, but then again, niether is war or violence.
 
 

A task that could be refused.
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Really? So, blacks were responsible for their enslavement in the South ...

I'm sure you would be big hit with the KKK and Neo-Nazis; if you only made them aware of this Ghandi-like revelation, they would be happy to know their arguments are sanctioned by such a peace loving man.
 

This is the main web page that I use when considering the Arab-Israeli conflict.

http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm

I thought it was fairly unbiased. It's got the dirt on both parties as well as the more redeeming traits/actions/etc.


No it doesn't very liberal to me either, but then again my sympathy for people does not rely on their political affiliations.

For my own curiosity, could you endulge me with articles/statistics about:

"Considering the Palestinians collaborated with the Nazis, use classic Nazi propaganda techniques in order to rope people into their hatred of Jews"
"Over half of Palestinians support terrorism"
"murder their daughters and sisters for 'honor'"

Thanks, if at all possible.
 

You're a little late for that. The character deffamation, personal attacks, and generally all-around stupid comments were made at the beginning of the thread.

Sorry chief. Better luck next time.
 
Very true, the Jews could have refused to pick up the dead on the street. But of course this leads to other Jews being shot until they find some who will clean them up. Was anything accomplished in that? I can't see where.

I can appreciate the fact that you would have liked to have history tell a story of resistance by the Jewish people against the Nazis. However, non-violent resistance would not have worked against the Nazis in my opinion. The Nazis had a goal of exterminating the Jews, and those that resisted would only solidify them in their resolve. The more Jews that would have died for resisting would have led others to just comply. Martyrdom does not work when you are killed after saying "No" once.

Also, it is not just a feat that would have been difficult to get the German people to see what was going on. The Nazis had information control which was the single most important issue. Then add in the German people saw Hitler as their savior you have next to an IMPOSSIBLE task, not just difficult. I don't see how anyone could argue with that. Also, suppose the German population found out. It would not have helped. Resistance from the German population would have been dealt with the same way. Remember Hitler had much resistance from countries that were being conquered but still was able to kill over 6 million Jews and 5 million others.

In the end I believe the Jews did the only thing they could do, and that is survive. Hindsight is of course 20/20 and we could sit here all day and critique what they could have done and should have done like a Monday Morning Quarterback. It is not everyday people are rounded up for mass slavery and extermination. In the end they did what they could, and I don't see how anyone could say any different then that.
 
Gandhi>Bush said:
No it doesn't very liberal to me either, but then again my sympathy for people does not rely on their political affiliations.
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When people's ideology involves such hatred that they support genocide, my own sympathy goes to the targets of their hatred rather than the haters. I have no sympathy for Nazis, and have great sympathy for their victims and not visa versa. Perhaps at some point you will develop the abiliy to sympathize with the victims of genocidal ideologies rather than faulting them them, and rather than sympathizing with the perpetrators of these ideologies, learn to discern why they are inimical to the other values you purport to uphold. There are huge contradictions in your stances and I think you are capable of working through them.


The first three have some information on the Nazi influence, which was actually quite widespread throughout the Arab world.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_during_ww2.php
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/nazis.html

THis site has countless videos showing the way Palestinian media propagandizes hatred
http://www.pmw.org.il/

One particular propaganda technique aimed at the outside world.
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/turnspeak.html

A discussion on the rhetorec and language of propaganda
http://www.zionismontheweb.org/linguistics_of_antizionism.html

an article on honor killing
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm

An article showing that 70% of Palestinians support the murder of innocents.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2072851.stm
 
Ghandi,

There's a couple of reasons that I think you're fighting this losing battle with everybody here lol.

Your argument is sound for some poeple. Its not for others.

First, not everyone believes in non-violent resistance as we can evidently see here. I would venture to say that a majority of people "don't" see non-violent resistance as a practical means to oppose a deadly adversary. So not to refute your assertion for some, I can't realistically view this as a movement that could've or would've gained popular support during the Holocaust. I'd also venture to say that "many" victims of the Holocaust "did" protest using non-violent means and died for that protest (not stating fact but making an assumption).

Second, resistance in general to the circumstances of the Holocaust is presumptuous at best without direct experience as others here have also said. I'll add to this that the desire to resist, which is evident in much of the literature of the time, does not mean that it could translate to action. I believe People's strength of character and strength of will in general fall into a granular sliding scale. The "average" person has an average strength of will to act under extraordinary circumstances and its the man or woman that can summon this strength at the time where it is necessary that makes such movements possible.

Third, weighing resistance vs compliance, where resistance meant death and compliance meant life (perhaps), its not a thourough investigation to weigh this decision based on a single principle alone. Your principle being more or less "live free or die." Its fair to say that many of the victims viewed this decision this way and died for that view, but its also fair to say many didn't. Many viewed their life, the life of their family and the hope of ultimate intervention by the rest of europe as worth compliance at the time. Its fair to say that fear alone led some to compliance. Its fair to say that mis-understanding the true circumstances at hand led some to compliance.

You have a view of the "basic" tenets of human nature that are universal and certainly these tenets that you cherish are a "part" of the very fabric of our nature, but, just as Platos Forms, like Justice, they are un-definable in terms without applying context to which these concepts can be applied. Human beings may very well be "Good" by nature but how they interpret acting on that good is another matter and its necessarily affected by more than one principle, especially when considering a collective resistance under extreme circumstances.

Your assertion about the Holocaust presumes that all the victims, many of the victims or "enough" of the victims could've summoned the strength to resist, organized, and had an impact, based on a single principle which even when given time and more moderate circumstances, is, at best, unrealistic.
 
Thanks for your reply GW but I'm afraid I just don't understand what you say. It all seems like utter nonsense to me.
1) For example is God Protestant or Catholic ?
2) Or does he merely perhaps have a preference for one over the other ?
3) When you go to heaven as you of course will as a Christian, will you find God to be sectarian ?
4) If he's not then, what difference does it make whether you support one brand of tribalistic ritual or another ?
5) Was Mary a virgin when she gave birth to the baby Jesus ?
6) What happened to the billions souls that lived before Jesus that had no chance to be saved ?
7) Why did God wait for a half a million years after hominids appeared before he sent his son here ?
8) Is God Jesus ?
9) What is the holy spirit ?
10) If religious people are imbued with the holy spirit once they accept Christ into their lives, why do so many behave like complete a55holes, yourself excluded of course.
11) At what point in our evolution from 'apelike creature' to man did we aquire souls that needed saving ?
12) At what point in our evolution from 'apelike creature' to man did religion appear ?
13) Do only homo sapiens have souls ?
14) What about other hominids now extinct. Did they have souls ?
15) What about anmimals ?
16) Can animals go to hell for behaving according to their instincts, particularly their vicious side.
17) Does God only make any allowances for a person's pre disposition to behaving badly as a consequence of their genes or their environment or can only the baby Jesus save our souls ?
18) We know are here as vehicles for our genes. We do what is needed to survive & to serve our genes. Sometimes that involves breaking the one or two of the ten commandments.
19) When people say they love Jesus or God is it just their instinctive evolved capacity for love withing their brain falling in love with a mental construct... a fantasy figure ?
20) Is religion & God not surely 100% in the mind of the believer & no where else ?
21) Why does God supposedly love us & show that love for us when we die by letting us into heaven if we are Christian or good or whatever it takes, yet completely ignore people's plight in awful situations in Auchvitz etc. In other words why does he wait untill we don't exist before he shows how much he loves & cares for us ?
22) Will it be boring in heaven after twenty billion trillion years there ?
 
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Well, I personally think that our Catholic beliefs are more correct than what a lot of Protestant Churches hold to be true.

We believe that anybody can get to Heaven, so long as they've led a good life. So to answer your question: No, God does not have a bias towards any one denomination, at least not in Catholic teachings. It used to be that we believed salvation only came through the Church but that has been revised.

I don't know if Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus or not. But I do believe that Jesus was not the result of natural intercourse.
 
You haven't really answered the questions have you ?
But then for the fantasy to survive some questions simply have to avoided. Like a child asking how can Father Xmas get to so many houses on one night. That's the start of the process in any healthy child finding out the truth about Father Xmas. I feel that religious people are fundamentally dishonest in comparison to the innocent curiousity that we see in a healthy child, becuase they choose to ignore questions that might undermine their faith.
Of course that's why we see immams & Rabbi priests turning children into zombies swaying to & fro isn't to stop them thinking. I guess hypnotic chanting in the Catholic church serves that role. Along with the line... 'You'll go to hell if you doubt'.
Incidently the virgin birth or non intercourse conception was cooked up by the catholic church a 100 years ago wasn't it ?
Here's some more for you to not answer....

22) Of course you might reply to 21).. he shows his love for us by sending his only son to die for us. In which case what did he do for the half million years prior to the baby Jesus, to show his love for the intelligent hominids on earth. Or doesn't he start caring for creatures until their frontal lobes have evolved to reach a certain mass ?

23) Will it be boring in heaven after twenty billion trillion years there ?

24) Do saints go to a higher place in Heaven ?

25) What perks are there in that higher place if so ?

26) Does heaven need administrating ?

26) Who administates heaven ?

27) Is the soul a product of the brain ?

28) If so are those in hell simply there becuase they were unfortunate enough to have a brain wired towards doing bad things ?

29) Why are they being punished becuase of the way they were made ?

30) There are almost certainly millions of planets with intelligent life on. Do those creatures have souls ?

31) Will you get a chance to meet them in the afterlife ?

32) Do paedophile Catholic Priests & Catholic Nazi sympathisers go to heaven ?
 
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Mr. Gandhi tends to classify history as a trite inconvenience. He seems to be totally unaware of the existence and fate of the 'White Rose' in Germany. He is also stone mute on the events and aftermath of July 20, 1944. The outcome of both historicities soundly discredit his 'resistence' arguments.

Beware the onslaught of leftist prophets who preach the one size fits all solution.
 

WHAT DO YOU MEAN I HAVEN'T ANSWERED YOUR QUESTIONS?

Sigh. Robin, are you seriously inquiring about Judaism and the Catholic Church or are you just as usual trying to be a smart ass?





How do you know he didn't care about the dinosaurs? I think evidence shows that they ruled for millions of years. Think about it, Robin. Species develop the ability to survive. So perhaps God had something to do with it.

23) Will it be boring in heaven after twenty billion trillion years there ?
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I don't know, Robin. Maybe Heaven has many different dimensions and realities. But think about it, would you be bored with your loved ones?


24) Do saints go to a higher place in Heaven ?
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No, at least not in the sense you're thinking of.

25) What perks are there in that higher place if so ?
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I don't know, Robin, am I Moses or something?



Of course pedophiles go to Hell.

Would you quite associating pedophiles with Catholics? Those are all good questions you've asked. The issue of whether people are born a certain way is one I don't think of us are qualified to answer. I don't know, maybe some are, maybe some aren't. But I don't think that proves that God doesn't exist. We all have a cross to bear but in the end, it makes us stronger.
 

Yep, true enough. Its important to align your ideals with the realities that oppose them in order to formulate a credible course of action. One size doesn't fit all Tashah and the sooner we come to understand that in this world the sooner we can find better solutions to the problems we're confronted with.
 


He's trying to be a smart-ass. Get used to it. Oh yeah...and no matter what the subject, count on the CIA and Pinochet to get thrown in your face.
 
GySgt said:
He's trying to be a smart-ass. Get used to it. Oh yeah...and no matter what the subject, count on the CIA and Pinochet to get thrown in your face.
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You forgot the conspiracies of big Corporations pulling the stings Gunny! lol
 


Would these be the same prophets that think appeasing a determined enemy away will work, because it worked for American Civil Rights?
 
Crispy said:
You forgot the conspiracies of big Corporations pulling the stings Gunny! lol
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How can I forget the money part? Robin and I are sworn enemies. We go back. You see, he doesn't like that he can't bash America without my standing firm in front of him. I can and have typed on the mistakes made by America, but I don't allow that to overshadow the overwhelming light America has cast in many dark places and times. It would be different if he spoke objectively as he claims, but his posts are clearly defined as otherwise.

......and Robin's reply?.....
 
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