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Gandhi>Bush said:Hundreds of thousands displaced and kicked out of their homes, and you say there was no wrong?
As soon as you stop acting like you are the absolute good and you enemy the absolute evil, we will be much closer to achieving peace for our children.
DivineComedy said:If obvious BIGOTS would stop trying to “right the wrong of 1947,” as if there was a wrong, and the idolaters (see the Hamas Charter) stopped having mentally ill conversations with rocks and trees, then BIGOTS and hypocrites (see the Hamas Charter) would realize that a people were legally allowed to move to the region for the express purpose of a national home for the Jewish people, and therefore, they had a right of self-determination in 1947, then the BIGOTS and hypocrites would be in compliance with the law:
Gandhi>Bush said:Umm... No...
The Jews being in Germany isn't the reason the holocaust happened. The Holocaust happened because of the Nazis.
America did nothing to stop Rwanda. Was that our fault? I certainly don't think so.
Gandhi>Bush said:It was my understanding that the first real resistance wasn't until the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. My position was that said resistance was too little, too late.
jamesrage said:I think it is too easy to play connect the dots long after events have happened because we were not there with full knowledge of how every thing is going to happen and how any alternative would change events.
Mr. Gandhi... Either you are right and everyone else here is wrong, or...Gandhi>Bush said:It was my understanding that the first real resistance wasn't until the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. My position was that said resistance was too little, too late.
DivineComedy said:The wrong was not committed by Israel, so reparations for 1947 are not theirs to pay, so take this international LAW and shove it up your ASS:
“Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;”
Only then can we have some peace.
Nobody should expect a BIGOT to stop a holocaust, especially when it doesn‘t see the absolute evil:
“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).” http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
*****
Hypocrites are like vampires.
Gandhi>Bush said:I did not ask such a question. I made a statement and was attacked. I have asked to be proven wrong.
Gandhi>Bush said:You can keep copying and pasting all you want, but the fact remains these people were wronged and unless you're suggesting that the UN step in and declare they made a mistake and then undo it just like that, Israel has to be the one to right it. It is they who are living in the home of the ones who were forced out, not the UN.
GySgt said:How can you say this? The great voice for humanity declaring that it is not our fault that Rwanda continued. We have an obligation to this world. It is our role. It is the price we have to pay for being the overwhelmingly more powerful. It is the same role a mutli-millionaire has to give some back to the people. What is our fault is that we looked the other way as it was occurring and we know from history that if we do not act...nobody will.
It completly amazes me how you persist on this crusade to be the self-appointed voice of conscience and humanity, but will not take the steps necessary to preserve such things in the name of "humanity."
realist said:Your statement is implying that the Jews were organized to choose another course of action other than obedience. They didn't have this central leadership to make such a choice.
Picaro said:The Allies effectively disarmed the German Army, and Germany itself had gun control long before WW I. This allowed right wing organizations to easily intimidate the Weimar legal establishment. Read up on Ernst Rohm. He diverted a huge stockpile of weapons from confiscation, and then distributed them to favored right wing 'militias', of which the Nazis were a particular favorite. Throughout the Weimar Republic, the right wing street thugs were better armed and more numerous than the Weimar Army.
Saying 'the resistance was too little, too late' is disengenious to say the least. It wasn't possible on a large scale in the first place. Germany only had a small number of Jews, and they were scattered all over, not just concentrated in one place. They couldn't all just leave, either, as is frequently pointed out, but ignored. You seem to think Jews were free to resist or leave; you're wrong.
GySgt said:This was over FIFTY years ago. This isn't something that happened yesterday or even a couple decades ago. We are talking about half a century. You sound just as bad as the Palestinians who, instead of rolling up their sleeves and progressing their society, are quite satisfied blaming the world and throwing temper tantrums. You've said it before...you cannot erase the past. What can be done is to "get along." However, the people that are refusing to get along are the very people you are rallying for.
Amazingly enough, I've just described the Middle East as a whole also. I wonder what is the common thread from one society to the next in that region?
Gandhi>Bush said:It amazes me that I, a "liberal", can be branded an apologist or a "blame-America-first" follower, when you're the one making comments like that.
Rwanda happened becuase of Hutu extremists with machetes, not because of the United States. Could we have stopped it? Maybe, probably. The truth is: I don't know much about African history, much less Rwandan history. From what I do know, it's a mess far beyond that of Sunnis and Shiites. There are an unlimited number of historica/internal/external forces effecting this single continent, all of them I am ignorant to.
Gandhi>Bush said:Could you get along? "Well they stole my grandfather's house and kicked him and my family out of his coutry, but its time to move on." I really don't see that in your character, nor do I see it in my own. These people want justice. They want back what they feel was stolen. I believe that if I were in the same situation, I would want the same.
To "move on" would be to appease, would it not?
Gandhi>Bush said:You can keep copying and pasting all you want, but the fact remains these people were wronged and unless you're suggesting that the UN step in and declare they made a mistake and then undo it just like that, Israel has to be the one to right it. It is they who are living in the home of the ones who were forced out, not the UN.
Picaro said:The whole Ghandi thing is admirable, but it needs to be looked at in context. He was practicing 'nonviolence' against English law, against English bureaucrats, an entirely different set of circumstances than exists in most parts of the world.
Ghandi also ended up getting his ass shot to death and a lot of his influence on the course of Indian laws and government died with him. Great character to build a movie around, though, no question. It's just that 'nonviolence' only works when there are a lot of TV news cameras around, and the videos actually get shown to a lot of people. you won't find much of this in Arab media, Red Chinese media, etc., so it's pretty much worthless for anything but American consumption.
Tashah said:
Take a look at the picture Mr. Gandhi. It is Tel'Aviv, the city that I call home. I can assure you... everything that you see to the horizon was built by Israelis. You don't seem to understand Mr. Gandhi. The 'Palestine' of 1946 that you wish to return to... does not exist anymore. Nothing of old 'Palestine' remains within the borders of Israel.
Israel was created 1n 1947 by the United Nations for the express purpose of Jewish settlement. The war initiated by the Arabs in 1948 was the catalyst of Palestinian flight. If you want to blame anyone Mr. Gandhi, then point your indicting finger at the 1947 Arab aggression.
Your other thread - War on Terror - Nonviolence vs Islamic Terrorism - is a better place to continue our discuussion on Israel/Palestine. This thread is about your musings on the Holocaust... unless you wish to withdraw your erroneous assumptions and misunderstandings. Tell me.
Gandhi>Bush said:You can keep copying and pasting all you want, but the fact remains these people were wronged and unless you're suggesting that the UN step in and declare they made a mistake and then undo it just like that, Israel has to be the one to right it. It is they who are living in the home of the ones who were forced out, not the UN.
Gandhi>Bush said:You can keep copying and pasting all you want, but the fact remains these people were wronged and unless you're suggesting that the UN step in and declare they made a mistake and then undo it just like that, Israel has to be the one to right it. It is they who are living in the home of the ones who were forced out, not the UN.
Gandhi>Bush said:It's too ambiguous to make a decision.
Gandhi>Bush said:I like to think I would have done something. Even if it is as simple as not moving to the ghettos, as not walking in the gutter at the request of a hatemonger. Even if it as simple as giving my life so that I may hold on to my obedience, I like to think I would have done something, but I like to think that I would not have been the lap dog that they would call me to be.
I would like to think I would have organized. I like to think I would have resisted in some fashion. Even if it was a violent fashion, but there wasn't. There wasn't any resistance at all. Not until the Warsaw Ghetto uprising was there any resistance.
GySgt said:I'm intelligent. I can get along and recognize that life is as it is and I must look to my future. I would recognize that I have children who need not grow up in bigotry and rage. I would recognize that my children's future does not have to involve a path to "divine" righteousness. I also don't subscribe to a brutal religion of which brutal men are interpreting it' scripture.
Appeasement in this sense would not garnish the death of others for the sake of my own skin. Israel is not out to destroy Palestinians, so what exactly are they appeasing? They were not ripped from their homes. They were forced to live with others, they refused, and they attacked. They lost and were ejected. Move on.
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