The Elephant in the Room

[Bodi]

Regarding equal rights between men and women becoming parents... the Elephant in the Room is that those that argue a man is bound by a woman's choice neatly ignore that a woman can and should have an abortion if she can not care for the child on her own. All of a sudden this choice that she has becomes a certainty that she will have the child regardless or that if she does he is bound by her decision.

The whole reason for pro-choice is to make the best choice... not just the best choice for the woman. Although she is not bound by him anymore and forced to pay for a child he should not be bound to her and forced to pay for a child.

What if he died post-conception but pre-birth... the mother would have to make a choice. That is no different than if the man wants to walk away... she has to make a choice. This is expressly what most dishonest debaters regarding this issue avoid. She can force society should he die or be jobless... nobody bats an eye at her choice... brave proud mother! Right? Nobody cries about the burden on the taxpayers... because she exercised her choice.... but if there is a man there then all of a sudden he has to pay for her choice and if he does not the y'all are mad as hell... insulting him and such... but she is doing the same exact thing... brining a baby into a world that she can not support on her own.

Just an interesting way to look at it...

 

[Individual]

Just dispose of your sperm responsibly. Problem solved.
If not, there may be consequences to bear, should a child be born.
Once you discard something you no longer have control of it, but you can still be held responsible should it harm someone.

 

[Lursa]

Regarding equal rights between men and women becoming parents... the Elephant in the Room is that those that argue a man is bound by a woman's choice neatly ignore that a woman can and should have an abortion if she can not care for the child on her own. All of a sudden this choice that she has becomes a certainty that she will have the child regardless or that if she does he is bound by her decision.

IMO, she probably should. But there's no law...and will be no law...forcing her to. So judge away. There's no point in discussing it.

And some women dont believe in abortion and have a 1st Amendment (freedom of religion) right that wont be overruled either.

So why bother even bringing it up except to complain about women some more, since your opt-out scam didnt fly...again?

The whole reason for pro-choice is to make the best choice... not just the best choice for the woman. Although she is not bound by him anymore and forced to pay for a child he should not be bound to her and forced to pay for a child.

It's to make the best choice for the woman and her current family and any one else she has responsibilities and obligations to. And now you are just re-running your complaints from your Opt-out scam.

What if he died post-conception but pre-birth... the mother would have to make a choice. That is no different than if the man wants to walk away... she has to make a choice. This is expressly what most dishonest debaters regarding this issue avoid. She can force society should he die or be jobless... nobody bats an eye at her choice... brave proud mother! Right? Nobody cries about the burden on the taxpayers... because she exercised her choice.... but if there is a man there then all of a sudden he has to pay for her choice and if he does not the y'all are mad as hell... insulting him and such... but she is doing the same exact thing... brining a baby into a world that she can not support on her own.

That's such bullshit. Plenty of people disagree with having kids you cant afford or care for, we see it all the time in economic threads like about minimum wage and...it also applies to couples *equally.*...but again...you are pissing into the wind, that isnt going to change. If you need to beat that dead horse, fine but it's not even debatable. You just want to use it to judge women. Fine...I judge them and I've posted so many times...but I dont go on about it...there's no point.

Just an interesting way to look at it...

No it's not and it's not even original. You are bitter and feel powerless and resent women for having a decision that men cannot control. But men can control themselves and if they dont want to be 'controlled' by a woman they dont have to risk having sex with her. They have ALL the control.

You just seem to be one of the men that believe men should still be entitled to sex without reproductive consequences. Well, in modern times, with DNA testing, etc, that's not likely anymore. But women never could and still cant have sex without risking consequences., LOL so there's your "equality". Women cannot and now men cannot either.

 

[Lursa]

Just dispose of your sperm responsibly. Problem solved.
If not, there may be consequences to bear, should a child be born.
Once you discard something you no longer have control of it, but you can still be held responsible should it harm someone.

It's funny, he wont respond to ether of us but provides a platform for us to refute him anyway He should blog crap like that, he really cant get past it and posts it over and over.

 

[Individual]

IMO, she probably should. But there's no law...and will be no law...forcing her to. So judge away. There's no point in discussing it.

And some women dont believe in abortion and have a 1st Amendment (freedom of religion) right that wont be overruled either.

So why bother even bringing it up except to complain about women some more, since your opt-out scam didnt fly...again?



It's to make the best choice for the woman and her current family and any one else she has responsibilities and obligations to. And now you are just re-running your complaints from your Opt-out scam.



That's such bullshit. Plenty of people disagree with having kids you cant afford or care for, we see it all the time in economic threads like about minimum wage and...it also applies to couples *equally.*...but again...you are pissing into the wind, that isnt going to change. If you need to beat that dead horse, fine but it's not even debatable. You just want to use it to judge women. Fine...I judge them and I've posted so many times...but I dont go on about it...there's no point.



No it's not and it's not even original. You are bitter and feel powerless and resent women for having a decision that men cannot control. But men can control themselves and if they dont want to be 'controlled' by a woman they dont have to risk having sex with her. They have ALL the control.

You just seem to be one of the men that believe men should still be entitled to sex without reproductive consequences. Well, in modern times, with DNA testing, etc, that's not likely anymore. But women never could and still cant have sex without risking consequences., LOL so there's your "equality". Women cannot and now men cannot either.

Should have titled this thread "The Dead Horse in the Room". Or maybe it was an Elephant to begin with and now unrecognizable having been beaten so severely.

 

[tosca1]

Regarding equal rights between men and women becoming parents... the Elephant in the Room is that those that argue a man is bound by a woman's choice neatly ignore that a woman can and should have an abortion if she can not care for the child on her own. All of a sudden this choice that she has becomes a certainty that she will have the child regardless or that if she does he is bound by her decision.

The whole reason for pro-choice is to make the best choice...

....................and the whole reason for pro-life is to speak for the unborn who's never had the choice, but he's the one who'll suffer the consequence.

If with all the available various kinds of gadgets (unbelieveable amount of education and propaganda to use birth controls, not to mention SAFE SEX) that prevent pregnancy, the woman had still found herself with an unwanted pregnancy -
obviously she's made a poor choice.

The best choice is prevention.
It's always been that.

 

[MamboDervish]

obviously she's made a poor choice.

NO! That isn't obvious at all. The only thing that's obvious is that you are not fit to judge a woman's choice - any woman's, any time.

There are many, many reasons to abort a pregnancy, and unless and until the allegedly pro-life are willing to speak for the already born, then you aren't pro-life at all - you are just anti-choice - and the argument that you "speak for the unborn" is just bullshit.

 

[Individual]

....................and the whole reason for pro-life is to speak for the unborn who's never had the choice, but he's the one who'll suffer the consequence.

If with all the available various kinds of gadgets (unbelieveable amount of education and propaganda to use birth controls, not to mention SAFE SEX) that prevent pregnancy, the woman had still found herself with an unwanted pregnancy -
obviously she's made a poor choice.

The best choice is prevention.
It's always been that.

But it's Her choice to make.

 

[tosca1]

NO! That isn't obvious at all. The only thing that's obvious is that you are not fit to judge a woman's choice - any woman's, any time.

There are many, many reasons to abort a pregnancy, and unless and until the allegedly pro-life are willing to speak for the already born, then you aren't pro-life at all - you are just anti-choice - and the argument that you "speak for the unborn" is just bullshit.

Lol - of course I can judge a woman's choice. Anyone can.
Lol - look, you guys are also judging what a woman's choice should be!
Aren't you judging that a pregnant unwed mother would've been better off aborting her child?


But, we can't judge the circumstances that may arise after the woman has gotten pregnant - like, if complications develop that may require abortion to save her life. Who can foresee that?


We're talking about the fact too, that we're no longer in the 50's - we're now in the 21st century.
Our technology has come up with many options to prevent pregnancy.
Therefore................. get in the game, and use the technology!

Imagine - if people would only use condom (that's just one of the options)................................we'll also prevent the spread of STD.

 

[tosca1]

But it's Her choice to make.

Not anymore.
Pro-life has prevailed.

 

[Citizen]

Just dispose of your sperm responsibly. Problem solved.
If not, there may be consequences to bear, should a child be born.
Once you discard something you no longer have control of it, but you can still be held responsible should it harm someone.

Sometimes you have a choice to correct a mistake

 

[jpevans]

Not anymore.
Pro-life has prevailed.

Forced Birth is a means of controlling women. While women are only half of the equation of pregnancy, so if a poor choice was made, both parties made it. Yet the women has the right to decide, can I see this through to the conclusion. It's easy for the man to say what she should do, but it clearly should be her choice, as it's her body taking the risk. Religious doctrine should carry no weight in the making of law. Not in America.

 

[MamboDervish]

Lol - of course I can judge a woman's choice. Anyone can.

No - you're not in any position to judge any else's choices. You have no knowledge of her circumstances. ZERO!

Lol - look, you guys are also judging what a woman's choice should be!

Absolutely not.

Aren't you judging that a pregnant unwed mother would've been better off aborting her child?

Obviously bullshit.

But, we can't judge the circumstances that may arise after the woman has gotten pregnant - like, if complications develop that may require abortion to save her life. Who can foresee that?

Now you're just supporting my arguments.

We're talking about the fact too, that we're no longer in the 50's - we're now in the 21st century.
Our technology has come up with many options to prevent pregnancy.
Therefore................. get in the game, and use the technology!

You have no clue how the women even got pregnant! You don't know what technology was available to them. You don't know what education they have. You don't don't know what cultural forces compel them to have sex with their partners. You don't know what religion they were brought up in. You don't know if they've been forced to have sex.

The simple fact is, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY ****ING CLUE ABOUT THEM AT ALL!
So all of your judgement is based upon what you don't know! Ergo my point about you not being fit to judge them. Not a single one of them. You don't approve of the choice they make, so you ASSUME you know them to justify your ignorant judgement of them. That is the truth!

Imagine - if people would only use condom (that's just one of the options)................................we'll also prevent the spread of STD.

An entirely different subject.

 

[Individual]

Not anymore.
Pro-life has prevailed.

Which only makes exercising the choice difficult.

 

[BirdinHand]

Now @Bodi wants to force poor people to have abortions.

 

[Bodi]

Now @Bodi wants to force poor people to have abortions.

Not forced but incentivized. Poor uneducated people in the realm of drugs and gangs or poor life circumstances should not be having children. Any person that cares about children should feel that way. Anybody against this actually hates children, to be honest.

 

[Exquisitor]

Regarding equal rights between men and women becoming parents... the Elephant in the Room is that those that argue a man is bound by a woman's choice neatly ignore that a woman can and should have an abortion if she can not care for the child on her own. All of a sudden this choice that she has becomes a certainty that she will have the child regardless or that if she does he is bound by her decision.

The whole reason for pro-choice is to make the best choice... not just the best choice for the woman. Although she is not bound by him anymore and forced to pay for a child he should not be bound to her and forced to pay for a child.

What if he died post-conception but pre-birth... the mother would have to make a choice. That is no different than if the man wants to walk away... she has to make a choice. This is expressly what most dishonest debaters regarding this issue avoid. She can force society should he die or be jobless... nobody bats an eye at her choice... brave proud mother! Right? Nobody cries about the burden on the taxpayers... because she exercised her choice.... but if there is a man there then all of a sudden he has to pay for her choice and if he does not the y'all are mad as hell... insulting him and such... but she is doing the same exact thing... brining a baby into a world that she can not support on her own.

Just an interesting way to look at it...

In my proposal, the man has no say whether he goes to jail or not.

You can't determine between someone who didn't use birth control, and someone who's birth control proved defective, talking about the target for our law, the high school teen, you in your next birth.

As an embryo, the proposition of getting chopped up before fifteen weeks and after are two different things.

Doctors should be immune to prosecution for abortions, save malpractice.

A small penalty, small for jeopardy, small that a teen could pay with a few months of weekends, sends the right message, to go from Wade, to throwing the book is not proper.

So, fifteen days after fifteen weeks for both mother and father.

Exceptions uniform or by State, can double by State, term, and delinquency.

 

[BirdinHand]

Not forced but incentivized. Poor uneducated people in the realm of drugs and gangs or poor life circumstances should not be having children. Any person that cares about children should feel that way. Anybody against this actually hates children, to be honest.

Why do you feel entitled to dictate how other people live their lives? Or as though anyone should particularly care about your opinions on the matter?

Especially women.

You seem bent on dictating women’s decisions and choices - why?

 

[Bodi]

But it's Her choice to make.

Not anymore.
Pro-life has prevailed.

How do you like that logic Individual and Lursa and BIH, etc.?

That is what you guys keep doing to me and others... just repeat what is currently allowed. Well, Tosca is right... in many areas Pro-Life is the law. Women are SOL. It is horrible and obviously ridiculous and instead of trying to compromise like I am... to find some common ground and equality... Tosca and others say, so the **** what... she made her choice when she chose to have sex. And you probably don't think much of Tosca and that logic... guess what.... same thing I think about yours.

 

[Bodi]

Why do you feel entitled to dictate how other people live their lives? Or as though anyone should particularly care about your opinions on the matter?

Dictate is your stupid word and just you lying some more... that said, tons of people don't think poor people should have kids that they can not afford or care for properly. Why do you encourage people to have kids that they know they can not care for properly? Why do you hate children? Honest question...

 

[BirdinHand]

How do you like that logic Individual and Lursa and BIH, etc.?

That is what you guys keep doing to me and others... just repeat what is currently allowed. Well, Tosca is right... in many areas Pro-Life is the law. Women are SOL. It is horrible and obviously ridiculous and instead of trying to compromise like I am... to find some common ground and equality... Tosca and others say, so the **** what... she made her choice when she chose to have sex. And you probably don't think much of Tosca and that logic... guess what.... same thing I think about yours.

Forced birth isn’t the law here in NJ.

And my state is set up as a sanctuary for anyone who wants to come here from another state.

So - your logic fails. As usual.

 

[BirdinHand]

Dictate is your stupid word and just you lying some more... that said, tons of people don't think poor people should have kids that they can not afford or care for properly. Why do you encourage people to have kids that they know they can not care for properly? Why do you hate children? Honest question...

What I hate are men that think they have any authority over a woman’s body.

Or over what another person’s family should/shouldn’t look like.

The male ego apparently has no bounds.

 

[Bodi]

Forced birth isn’t the law here in NJ.

And my state is set up as a sanctuary for anyone who wants to come here from another state.

So - your logic fails. As usual.

Straw Man and a sign of lying and or weak thinking/understanding skills.

 

[Bodi]

What I hate are men that think they have any authority over a woman’s body.

Or over what another person’s family should/shouldn’t look like.

The male ego apparently has no bounds.

I am 100% pro-choice. But why do you encourage children being born into poverty, gangs, drug life... etc? Answer that.

 

[BirdinHand]

I am 100% pro-choice. But why do you encourage children being born into poverty, gangs, drug life... etc? Answer that.

Where have I done that?

Are you unable to discern between not dictating choices and encouraging choices?

It’s really an elementary concept.