The dishonesty of Intellectual Property Theft.

[Redress]

It's not stealing. It's legally, in the privacy of your own home, going online and obtaining something given to you for free.

If you go into a store and steal a CD, that's stealing.

They need to cone up with a better business model. They don't want to get with the times.

Whether they need a better business model, in your example you are doing almost the exact same thing as stealing the CD, minus only the value of the CD itself. It is still stealing earned return on an initial investment.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

how is it different than stealing a CD?

and how does dong it in your home have any impact?

The CD requires significant resources from the creator to make.
Less so than the original CD.

A torrent does not take from the original owner.
It is a voluntary transaction.

 

[Redress]

They don't earn my dollars until I get to sample the product and then if I like it, I'll buy it.
That's fair but the industry doesn't want me to be able to do that.

Want to know if a movie is good? Watch the trailers, read the reviews. Those are available for free. You can then, with 95 % certainty, know if something is good.

Want to know if a song is good? I forget the website that allows me to listen to song once, then if I like it, but it.

Stealing something, then deciding if you like it, well, that is still stealing.

 

[marduc]

So you support theft. Got it.

how the **** do you pick this up from my post? no don't tell me I don't want to watch the gymnastics.

 

[Redress]

The CD requires significant resources from the creator to make.
Less so than the original CD.

A torrent does not take from the original owner.
It is a voluntary transaction.

A torrent that reduces sales of a product is stealing from the owner. This really is not complicated.

 

[Redress]

how the **** do you pick this up from my post? no don't tell me I don't want to watch the gymnastics.

Probably the same way I did. You suggest that movie studios should just give up on one of their larger revenue sources since people are just going to steal it. The solution is to find ways to stop the robbery, not punish the creators.

 

[Johnny]

Whether they need a better business model, in your example you are doing almost the exact same thing as stealing the CD, minus only the value of the CD itself. It is still stealing earned return on an initial investment.

Not exactly. It belongs to whomever bought the legal copy and shared it.

FTR, I do buy music and movies.

This "illegal" downloading could be solved by the market. Either they will lower prices, go completely digital, etc etc.

The fact is they're trying to hold on to old technology and use the government as their muscle.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Want to know if a movie is good? Watch the trailers, read the reviews. Those are available for free. You can then, with 95 % certainty, know if something is good.

Reviews are heavily subjective.
There is no way for me to know if it is really good or not.

Trailers are not accurate representations of the whole movie.
It is insufficient.

Want to know if a song is good? I forget the website that allows me to listen to song once, then if I like it, but it.

Stealing something, then deciding if you like it, well, that is still stealing.

What happens when I buy it but am unsatisfied with the product, tough luck and I'm out the money?
Why is it ok for me to lose money but not them?

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

A torrent that reduces sales of a product is stealing from the owner. This really is not complicated.

There is no proof that their cash flow and income has been reduced by torrents.

 

[Redress]

Not exactly. It belongs to whomever bought the legal copy and shared it.

FTR, I do buy music and movies.

This "illegal" downloading could be solved by the market. Either they will lower prices, go completely digital, etc etc.

The fact is they're trying to hold on to old technology and use the government as their muscle.

Close enough. Some one invested in it, either the creator(say a writer who put the time into it, or the musicians who bought the instruments, the studio time and put their time it it, or some one who gave them value, with the expectation of a return on that investment.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Close enough. Some one invested in it, either the creator(say a writer who put the time into it, or the musicians who bought the instruments, the studio time and put their time it it, or some one who gave them value, with the expectation of a return on that investment.

I have an expectation of value and return from my investment in stocks.
Should I get a profit even if it loses value?

 

[spud_meister]

What happens when I buy it but am unsatisfied with the product, tough luck and I'm out the money?
Why is it ok for me to lose money but not them?

if it's not defective, thats tough luck, i thought you libertarians were all for personal responsibility :2razz:

 

[Redress]

Reviews are heavily subjective.
There is no way for me to know if it is really good or not.

Trailers are not accurate representations of the whole movie.
It is insufficient.

And that is not sufficient reason to justify theft.

What happens when I buy it but am unsatisfied with the product, tough luck and I'm out the money?
Why is it ok for me to lose money but not them?

They are taking a chance on whether sales will recoup cost. They are taking a risk, but you are not willing to, but still want what they provide?

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

if it's not defective, thats tough luck, i thought you libertarians were all for personal responsibility :2razz:

I am believe me.
I take my money seriously and believe firmly in sampling.

Don't buy it, before you try it.

 

[Redress]

I have an expectation of value and return from my investment in stocks.
Should I get a profit even if it loses value?

See post 38. Every one who produces something for sale takes a chance on it. Every investment has risks. None of that justifies stealing.

 

[Johnny]

I see both sides of the argument. But I also see the industry attacking the little man here. If they really wanted to do something about it than go after the websites. Not the users.

The government steals from all of us all of the time. But they get away with it. So for them to demonize downloading is laughable.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

And that is not sufficient reason to justify theft.

What if my opinion of it is bad? I do lose the time viewing it.

They are taking a chance on whether sales will recoup cost. They are taking a risk, but you are not willing to, but still want what they provide?

Nope, I'm the customer.
They are the seller with something that carries a highly subjective value.
If I don't like it, I should only lose the time spent watching it.

 

[Redress]

What if my opinion of it is bad? I do lose the time viewing it.

Nope, I'm the customer.
They are the seller with something that carries a highly subjective value.
If I don't like it, I should only lose the time spent watching it.

You take a chance every time you buy a product. Does that mean you can steal it and "sample" it whenever you want?

 

[marduc]

Probably the same way I did. You suggest that movie studios should just give up on one of their larger revenue sources since people are just going to steal it. The solution is to find ways to stop the robbery, not punish the creators.

its called being realistic.. the cat and mouse game will continue, and the ways to combat that are what I suggested, move to IMAX, and 3d, perhpas include advertisement in the distributions, allow somewhere like steam to sell it at a nominal price, realize there is no way to prevent people from making copies (this **** has been going in since the days of dubbing cassettes and mix tapes) and realize that technology and human nature has conspired to make it a lost cause to expect to have any significant revenue on redistribution looking forward.

no mention of theft or alluding that I support theft at all, I support realistic approaches and acceptances of reality, and reality is they are trying to maintain a grasp on a greased pig.

exaggeration and baseless extrapolation of my position on both of your parts.

 

[Redress]

its called being realistic.. the cat and mouse game will continue, and the ways to combat that are what I suggested, move to IMAX, and 3d, perhpas include advertisement in the distributions, allow somewhere like steam to sell it at a nominal price, realize there is no way to prevent people from making copies (this **** has been going in since the days of dubbing cassettes and mix tapes) and realize that technology and human nature has conspired to make it a lost cause to expect to have any significant revenue on redistribution looking forward.

no mention of theft or alluding that I support theft at all, I support realistic approaches and acceptances of reality, and reality is they are trying to maintain a grasp on a greased pig.

exaggeration and baseless extrapolation of my position on both of your parts.

I do not believe in giving in to criminals. That is simply a facet of my belief system This is not the same as the old cassette tapes of records, it is something on a whole other level, one person can provide something to thousands. Records never even lasted that many plays.

There is no exaggeration of your position, you justify robbery because it is hard to stop, and put the onus on the creator.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

You take a chance every time you buy a product. Does that mean you can steal it and "sample" it whenever you want?

No but I get to inspect it and have a high probability of returning it for it's full cash value.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

its called being realistic.. the cat and mouse game will continue, and the ways to combat that are what I suggested, move to IMAX, and 3d, perhpas include advertisement in the distributions, allow somewhere like steam to sell it at a nominal price, realize there is no way to prevent people from making copies (this **** has been going in since the days of dubbing cassettes and mix tapes) and realize that technology and human nature has conspired to make it a lost cause to expect to have any significant revenue on redistribution looking forward.

no mention of theft or alluding that I support theft at all, I support realistic approaches and acceptances of reality, and reality is they are trying to maintain a grasp on a greased pig.

exaggeration and baseless extrapolation of my position on both of your parts.

I am perfectly willing to compromise, it's the other side that wants complete monopoly control.

 

[Redress]

No but I get to inspect it and have a high probability of returning it for it's full cash value.

And you can inspect a movie too, with a high probability that it will return full value. We call those trailers, and reviews(Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic will give you hundreds of reviews of every single movie). You have more access now than you ever used to to information to make an informed decision on what movie to watch.

 

[marduc]

I do not believe in giving in to criminals. That is simply a facet of my belief system This is not the same as the old cassette tapes of records, it is something on a whole other level, one person can provide something to thousands. Records never even lasted that many plays.

There is no exaggeration of your position, you justify robbery because it is hard to stop, and put the onus on the creator.

I suppose I support drug use too since I want them legalized huh?

<biting my tongue because i am insulted>

 

[Redress]

I am perfectly willing to compromise, it's the other side that wants complete monopoly control.

You only want to steal a little bit? That's a nice compromise...