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The dishonesty of Intellectual Property Theft.

Renae

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There is another thread going on but it got side tracked... by me partially, discussing the theft of IP via download sites like Piratebay.

The basic argument is on whether or not Intellectual Property, like a song, a movie or software is an Idea, that should be free, or property which has legal protections.

Those in favor of free stuff, claim no one can own an Idea, and really the companies aren't all that hurt by the theft, so what does it matter if they make a copy of Iron Man2 the day it hits the theaters?

On the other side are folks like myself that contend IP is property and has legal protections, the copying of such IP for personal use is in fact theft.

I realized while sitting there, the problem lies in the dishonest position of the Idea folks. IP is not "an Idea", it's a product, a product created with the intent of earning the creators a profit.

And that's where the problem arises, these IDEA folks seem to think Movies, games, books, songs just happen... someone thinks of something and it happens. IT's not an "Idea", work was involved in the creation, planning, production and distribution of the end product, whatever that IP happens to take.

To say that the producers of said IP are not entitled to legal protection for their product is intellectually dishonest, and shows a severe lack of understanding into what goes into the creation of, and purpose of IP.

If you are downloading songs, musics, movies, books or software you did not purchase from sites like Piratebay, you ARE stealing, and no amount of twisted logic will change the fact you are obtaining a product you did not pay for. It's NOT just "an idea and ideas need to be free man!!" Pay up, or go without.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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I realized while sitting there, the problem lies in the dishonest position of the Idea folks. IP is not "an Idea", it's a product, a product created with the intent of earning the creators a profit.

And that's where the problem arises, these IDEA folks seem to think Movies, games, books, songs just happen... someone thinks of something and it happens. IT's not an "Idea", work was involved in the creation, planning, production and distribution of the end product, whatever that IP happens to take.
Products of IP are complete subjective in value, yet the creators try to establish a firm, near universal market price.
Sorry it doesn't work like that.

You can only hold the waters of the free market back for so long, eventually they find a new path of least resistance.
 

Renae

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Harry Guerrilla

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Did you even READ your link, my wife and I did, we can't see where you think this applies to reality. It doesn't.
Information has an infinite seller (torrents and other download places).
There are also an infinite number of buyers (every user who wants to get a copy).

A classic example of perfect competition.
 

spud_meister

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Information is approaching perfect competition.
Perfect competition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All the barriers being thrown up are an attempt to retain or set up monopolistic powers.
They will all be utter failures.

IP is on life support, thanks for playing.
perfect competition states that the cost of a product should be no more than the cost of producing that product, or so the wiki article led me to understand, by downloading a book, or a movie, or a song illegally, you're completely avoiding the cost of production, you don't pay for the publishing or the binding, you don't pay for the DVD's it was written onto, you don't pay the electricity bill for the power it took to master the quality of the recording, and the companies are ultimately losing money off of it.
 

Renae

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Products of IP are complete subjective in value, yet the creators try to establish a firm, near universal market price.
Sorry it doesn't work like that.

You can only hold the waters of the free market back for so long, eventually they find a new path of least resistance.

You have no clue how economics works do you?

You can only hold the waters of the free market back for so long, eventually they find a new path of least resistance.
WTF is this even supposed to mean? No dude, the FREE MARKET goes towards PROFITABLE endeavors! Free Market requires laws, rules and regulations that protect the rights of producers and consumers of products, like IP for example. No one will invest 200 Million into say, the next Superman movie if they could not only the cost of the movie, but provide a profit for their company, those companies that distribute the movie... shareholders.

They don't do create to break even, they create to make a profit, and as much of a profit as they can legally.
 

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It's not theft. Somebody bought that mo3, DVD, or whatever and shared it.
Maybe the industry needs to get their heads out of their asses and stop trying to hold on to an outdated business model.
It's not theft but fair use.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Wiki said:
* Infinite Buyers/Infinite Sellers – Infinite consumers with the willingness and ability to buy the product at a certain price, Infinite producers with the willingness and ability to supply the product at a certain price.
The product base can be infinitely replicated at near 0 cost for the "sellers."
People can download at near infinite amount of times.

Wiki said:
* Zero Entry/Exit Barriers – It is relatively easy to enter or exit as a business in a perfectly competitive market.
There are very few entry/exit barriers.

Set up a website and/or own a torrent download program.

Wiki said:
* Perfect Information - Prices and quality of products are assumed to be known to all consumers and producers.
Price about the product is universal across the board for all market participants.

Wiki said:
* Zero Transaction Costs - Buyers and sellers incur no costs in making an exchange [Perfect mobility].
The transaction costs are near 0.

Wiki said:
* Profit Maximization - Firms aim to sell where marginal costs meet marginal revenue, where they generate the most profit.
Profit for the "Sellers" is fame or infamy, which ever way you want to take it.

Wiki said:
* Homogeneous Products – The characteristics of any given market good or service do not vary across suppliers.
The product is exactly the same whether it is at pirate bay or at any other torrent site.

Wiki said:
* Constant Returns to Scale - Constant returns to scale insure that there are sufficient fims in the industry.
Most torrent sides generate revenue from ads, not the sale of their "products."
 

Renae

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Information has an infinite seller (torrents and other download places).
There are also an infinite number of buyers (every user who wants to get a copy).

A classic example of perfect competition.
Oh, if ONLY that were what "perfect competition" meant...
From YOUR source sir:
Some believe that one of the prime examples of a perfectly competitive market anywhere in the world is street food in developing countries. This is so since relatively few barriers to entry/exit exist for street vendors. Furthermore, there are often numerous buyers and sellers of a given street food, in addition to consumers/sellers possessing perfect information of the product in question. It is often the case that street vendors may serve a homogenous product, in which little to no variations in the product's nature exist.
Do you see the flaw here in your trying to claim IP is approaching this mythical "perfect competition" status. There are HUGE barriers, time, money, resources to entering the cycle. IF ANYONE could make movies, Operating systems, write a novel, produce music... then YOU MIGHT have some semblance of a point. Furthermore a "Perfect Competition" situation arises with Homogeneous Products, as your link explains.

Now while I won't argue some music and movies are pretty lame... they ARE different.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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perfect competition states that the cost of a product should be no more than the cost of producing that product, or so the wiki article led me to understand, by downloading a book, or a movie, or a song illegally, you're completely avoiding the cost of production, you don't pay for the publishing or the binding, you don't pay for the DVD's it was written onto, you don't pay the electricity bill for the power it took to master the quality of the recording, and the companies are ultimately losing money off of it.
That's why I said it was approaching perfect competition, originally.

Not all copies of books that are bought are bound, the same for movies, etc.
No company has lost profit from what I've seen.
They have had continued years of consecutively increasing profits.
 

Renae

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It's not theft. Somebody bought that mo3, DVD, or whatever and shared it.
Maybe the industry needs to get their heads out of their asses and stop trying to hold on to an outdated business model.
It's not theft but fair use.
Fair Use? FAIR USE?

So the people that work their ASSES off, so that you can enjoy a good IP, are assholes for wanting you to pay for it?

BTW Fair Use would be inviting friends over to watch YOUR copy, not putting it on the web for all.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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You have no clue how economics works do you?
I do much more than you, that I'm sure of.

WTF is this even supposed to mean? No dude, the FREE MARKET goes towards PROFITABLE endeavors! Free Market requires laws, rules and regulations that protect the rights of producers and consumers of products, like IP for example. No one will invest 200 Million into say, the next Superman movie if they could not only the cost of the movie, but provide a profit for their company, those companies that distribute the movie... shareholders.

They don't do create to break even, they create to make a profit, and as much of a profit as they can legally.
Profit is, sometimes, something other than dollars. ;)
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Oh, if ONLY that were what "perfect competition" meant...
From YOUR source sir:


Do you see the flaw here in your trying to claim IP is approaching this mythical "perfect competition" status. There are HUGE barriers, time, money, resources to entering the cycle. IF ANYONE could make movies, Operating systems, write a novel, produce music... then YOU MIGHT have some semblance of a point. Furthermore a "Perfect Competition" situation arises with Homogeneous Products, as your link explains.

Now while I won't argue some music and movies are pretty lame... they ARE different.
Yes anyone can do those things.
They have done it, many times over.
 

spud_meister

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That's why I said it was approaching perfect competition, originally.

Not all copies of books that are bought are bound, the same for movies, etc.
No company has lost profit from what I've seen.
They have had continued years of consecutively increasing profits.
because people still buy the physical copies, and they use the excuse of illegal downloading to up prices, and it effects more than the major companies, book shops, CD shops, they would be losing business due to people simply being able to download a CD, or a book, rather than having to buy it.
 
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Renae

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I do much more than you, that I'm sure of.



Profit is, sometimes, something other than dollars. ;)
See my wife suggested you are just spouting **** to spin me up, however I think you really ARE this... person you present to us, and believe this stuff you are typing.

If the producer of the IP gives away their material for other then dollars, you are quite right, but if they Copywrite the material and sell it on the market, you have no right to said material until you have given the producer $$ in exchange for it.
 

Redress

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The thing that those who want to steal things for free don't want you to know include things like:

1: Making a song is not cheap.
2: Making a movie is not cheap.
3: writing a book takes a long time, and time is of value, so again, not cheap.
4: people have a reasonable expectation to get a return from people who use a product they spend considerably(or even minor) resources on.
5: people who steal IP's are taking away potential returns on investment earned.

Edit to add: this really is not a complicated issue. It is thievery, and all the justifications and attempts to obscure that won't change this fact.
 
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Harry Guerrilla

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because people still buy the physical copies, and they use the excuse of illegal downloading to up prices, and it effects more than the major companies, book shops, CD shops, they would be losing business due to people simply being able to download a CD, rather than having to buy it.
There is a middle ground that I'm willing to take.
Seeing as the industry doesn't want to compromise, they have left me with little choice but to outright deny them consideration.

Extremism must be met with extremism.
 

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The impasse that both sides are talking past either on is that one is that it is the redistribution that is where the threats of perfect competition occurs. For movies in particular they need to accept the reality that their days of competing in the redistribution arena are limited, and their tactics are outdated and it is being artificially propped up, it is going the way of the dodo. it is inevitable they need to stop fighting it and accept this.

A movie needs to be able to attain its revenue in the area where there is not perfect competition, and that is in the initial screening in the theater.. very few people have home theatres that can compete with the big screen experience for a movie, and there is still a market for that, especially for a 3D and or an imax production (which you notice the big movie companies are moving to more and more). Heck this whole distribution for home use concept is only 30 years old itself, and they are already addicted to it and cannot give it up, that was a novel side stream source of revenue for them while it lasted, but alas their bonus revenue is now becoming obsolete.
 
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It's not stealing. It's legally, in the privacy of your own home, going online and obtaining something given to you for free.

If you go into a store and steal a CD, that's stealing.

They need to cone up with a better business model. They don't want to get with the times.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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See my wife suggested you are just spouting **** to spin me up, however I think you really ARE this... person you present to us, and believe this stuff you are typing.

If the producer of the IP gives away their material for other then dollars, you are quite right, but if they Copywrite the material and sell it on the market, you have no right to said material until you have given the producer $$ in exchange for it.
Creative works have a HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE VALUE.
When you go to a store and see all new releases priced the same or go one iTunes with all songs the same price.
Something stinks and it's the industry monopoly.

You do not deserve money, by simply creating something, that falls into the guidelines of intellectual property.
 

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It's not stealing. It's legally, in the privacy of your own home, going online and obtaining something given to you for free.

If you go into a store and steal a CD, that's stealing.

They need to cone up with a better business model. They don't want to get with the times.
how is it different than stealing a CD?

and how does dong it in your home have any impact?
 

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The impasse that both sides are talking past either on is that one is that it is the redistribution that is wher the perfect competition occurs. For movies in particular they need to accept the reality that their days of competing in the redistribution arena are limited, and their tactics are outdated and it is being artificially propped up, it is going the way of the dodo. it is inevitable they need to stop fighting it and accept this.

A movie needs to be able to attain its revenue in the area where there is not perfect competition, and that is in the initial screening in the theater.. very few people have home theatres that can compete with the big screen experience for a movie, and there is still a market for that, especially for a DVD and or an imax production (which you notice the big movie companies are moving to more and more). Heck this whole distribution for home use concept is only 30 years old itself, and they are already addicted to it and cannot give it up, that was a novel side stream source of revenue for them while it lasted, but alas their bonus revenue is now becoming obsolete.
So you support theft. Got it.

See what you folks don't seem to see coming is that we are getting close to the STEAM model for IP. Do you know what STEAM is?

It's a Content Delivery System, a STREAM system like Netflix provides...

They'll quit selling Movies that you can copy, all your products will be on the web to work, and you won't be able to access IP you haven't legally obtained. Songs will go this way too, all IP. The days of FREE IP is numbered. Remember "Napster"?
 

Harry Guerrilla

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The thing that those who want to steal things for free don't want you to know include things like:

1: Making a song is not cheap.
2: Making a movie is not cheap.
3: writing a book takes a long time, and time is of value, so again, not cheap.
4: people have a reasonable expectation to get a return from people who use a product they spend considerably(or even minor) resources on.
5: people who steal IP's are taking away potential returns on investment earned.

Edit to add: this really is not a complicated issue. It is thievery, and all the justifications and attempts to obscure that won't change this fact.
They don't earn my dollars until I get to sample the product and then if I like it, I'll buy it.
That's fair but the industry doesn't want me to be able to do that.
 
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