• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The "death panels" are already here (1 Viewer)

Throughout all this health reform debate, the one thing I come back to is the situation found in the movie, "John Q". Grant, the movie wasn't based on any real-life event, but it did illustrate very well the need for reforming health care particularly in catastrophic situations, i.e., transplant patients and the under-insured.

Unless you keep up with your health care plan each year, most people really don't know what's in their insurance policy - or what's not. For example, most health insurance policies don't cover catastrophic illnesses like cancer or a brain tumor. And while most do cover emergency room care, many don't cover extended hospital stays. So, if you find yourself in a situation similar to what this man did in this story from the New York Times, you could be SOL in receiving the proper treatment for your medical diagnosis.

This is why I support health care reform legistlation, particularly the aspect where "all health insurance policies would provide equal benefits" (for the most part) under the law. Because right now, we just don't have a uniform system of benefits and coverage. Right now, your health care benefits and coverage are whatever is negotiated between the insurance lobby groups, the unions (if you're a member), your employer and the insurance company. And the terms can be changed - or in some cases dropped - at any moment.

No kidding. It is still beyond my comprehension why Americans support a system that is designed to rip them off. My only explanation is that it must be a case of the Stockholm Syndrome.
 
Then you should support the Wyden plan.

As it stands, McDonalds is being subsidized by the taxpayer in that many of their employees are probable Medicaid recipients.

I'm not familiar with the Wyden plan, but I am opposed to welfare in general.
 
It is good when employers don't give health insurance. It allows the employee to choose what he wants to spend his money on. If the employee isn't making enough money to buy the insurance he wants, he should get a better job.

Companies do not put a drain on society by not offering benefits. The individual should buy insurance if he wants it.

By the way, the minimum wage doesn't make the poor better off. It hurts unskilled workers. The market determines what an employee is worth, it that value falls below the minimum wage, the employee is fired. If it worked, why not set it at $100/hour?

If you want to go to a unionized store, that is fine with me. Just don't force me or anyone else to. It doesn't matter to me if the store is unionized. If the union ends up raising the cost of stuff at the store, I'd rather go to a cheaper one. Forcing all stores to be unionized and pay benefits would also hurt the workers you claim to support. The cost of their food will rise. The only thing they should do is try to get a job that pays more money.

Rich people don't collect more social security or medicare when they retire, why should they pay more in taxes for the same thing. I assume it is because the rich are "lucky" right? And the poor are "less fortunate" right? Regardless, medicare and social security should be optional.

This has been a fun rant, but it has been difficult because we have 2 totally different premises.

So you are opposed to the current Federal Income tax incentive for employers providing Health Insurance to employees?

What is your opinion of the current safety net for uninsurfed, involving municipal hospitals and charity clinics and hospitals?

I disease a matter of public concern, for which a safety net is desirable?

Are there reasons why th epuclic should not be concerend with providing a safety net for he uninusred who develop diesase?




..
 
So you are opposed to the current Federal Income tax incentive for employers providing Health Insurance to employees?

What is your opinion of the current safety net for uninsurfed, involving municipal hospitals and charity clinics and hospitals?

I disease a matter of public concern, for which a safety net is desirable?

Are there reasons why th epuclic should not be concerend with providing a safety net for he uninusred who develop diesase?


..


1. Absolutely

2. The Federal government has no constitutional right to do anything about it. I would be alright with a small safety net at the state level. For the most part, those who cannot pay should get private charity.
 
I'm not familiar with the Wyden plan, but I am opposed to welfare in general.
Maybe you should become familiar with the Wyden plan.

So you are on the self pay plan for health care coverage?
 
Maybe you should become familiar with the Wyden plan.

So you are on the self pay plan for health care coverage?

I'm 15. I think I have insurance through my dad's company though.
 
1. Absolutely

2. The Federal government has no constitutional right to do anything about it. I would be alright with a small safety net at the state level. For the most part, those who cannot pay should get private charity.

What private charities would you go to if you needed a kidney transplant and your parents had no insurance?
What do we do about all the people who can afford insurance, but choose to spend the money elsewhere, like on luxuries, toys, or an extravagant lifestyle?
Suppose your parents chose to not have health insurance, where would you go for treatment, or payment for treatment?
I know many people who have their priorities all wrong and spend their money foolishly instead of being responsible and buying insurance...how do we make them do the right thing?
 
A very cogent look at what the right wingers refuse to discuss. Instead, they seem to want to deflect with nonsensical lies and outright yelling.

The "death panels" are already here | Salon News

OH, GEE!

Sounds similar to this guy named Gary Reinbach, British citizen under public health care, who was DENIED a liver transplant under government bureaucrats.
UK Man, 22, Dies Denied Liver Transplant: "I don't want to die". | NowPublic News Coverage

And how can people in Britain pulling there own teeth out using a pair of pliers and vodka as tools because they can't get a dentist appointment.

AND HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT WE, THE U.S., HAVE THE HIGHEST CANCER SURVIVAL RATE UNDER A POPULATION 300MILLION?

Go move to a country with public health care system or go to the government controlled medicaid.

Nationalizing doesn't fix our health care system!
 
What private charities would you go to if you needed a kidney transplant and your parents had no insurance?
What do we do about all the people who can afford insurance, but choose to spend the money elsewhere, like on luxuries, toys, or an extravagant lifestyle?
Suppose your parents chose to not have health insurance, where would you go for treatment, or payment for treatment?
I know many people who have their priorities all wrong and spend their money foolishly instead of being responsible and buying insurance...how do we make them do the right thing?

People should be allowed to make stupid decisions. People shouldn't be stolen from to subsidize those who make stupid decisions. Why would anyone buy health insurance if they knew they would be covered in the event of a catastrophic accident?
 
I'm 15. I think I have insurance through my dad's company though.

So you are the recipient of the welfare of the corporate nanny state subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer... while advocating a death sentence for people who embody the spirit of this once fine country: self -employed farmers, fisherman and small business people.

Well done.
 
People should be allowed to make stupid decisions. People shouldn't be stolen from to subsidize those who make stupid decisions. Why would anyone buy health insurance if they knew they would be covered in the event of a catastrophic accident?
I haven't had a ticket of any kind since 1988, and the only auto insurance claims I have made are for windshields damaged by rocks kicked up by the tires of other cars.
But my auto insurance hasn't decreased one bit, in fact, it has gone up a little.

No employable adult should be allowed to walk free if he has the means to purchase health insurance, but chooses not to. They are expecting others to take care of them, without their permission. They should be fined double what the annual cost of their insurance would be if they would just purchase it, then half of that fine should be used to buy their insurance.

But, real life says that there will always be SOME who are uninsured but are not to blame for their condition. Welfare should be for those very few among us who need it and deserve it.
This is why taxpayer subsidized funds should be made available...for those whose situation is beyond their control....
 
So you are the recipient of the welfare of the corporate nanny state subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer... while advocating a death sentence for people who embody the spirit of this once fine country: self -employed farmers, fisherman and small business people.

Well done.

It isn't subsidized really, it isn't taxed though.

I'm not advocating a death sentence for anyone. I am advocating free-market capitalism. I am advocating liberty.

By the way, my dad is a "small business person". He's doing fine.
 
I haven't had a ticket of any kind since 1988, and the only auto insurance claims I have made are for windshields damaged by rocks kicked up by the tires of other cars.
But my auto insurance hasn't decreased one bit, in fact, it has gone up a little.

No employable adult should be allowed to walk free if he has the means to purchase health insurance, but chooses not to. They are expecting others to take care of them, without their permission. They should be fined double what the annual cost of their insurance would be if they would just purchase it, then half of that fine should be used to buy their insurance.

But, real life says that there will always be SOME who are uninsured but are not to blame for their condition. Welfare should be for those very few among us who need it and deserve it.
This is why taxpayer subsidized funds should be made available...for those whose situation is beyond their control....

You think people should be FORCED to buy health insurance? I don't think I'm the one who wants to protect the insurance companies.
 
I'm not advocating a death sentence for anyone. I am advocating free-market capitalism. I am advocating liberty.

Rockefeller advocated that too but then again he owned everything.
 
It isn't subsidized really, it isn't taxed though.
not taxed= subsidized
I'm not advocating a death sentence for anyone. I am advocating free-market capitalism. I am advocating liberty.
There is almost nothing free market/liberating about the U.S. health care system. Your entire line of thinking is fanciful.
By the way, my dad is a "small business person". He's doing fine.
Good for him.... if he isn't too old, no P.E.C.s, living in a state that allows insurance denial, the system can work for him..for the time being.
 
not taxed= subsidized

Not really. Subsidies are when the government gives someone money.

There is almost nothing free market/liberating about the U.S. health care system. Your entire line of thinking is fanciful.

The current US health care system is not an example of capitalism. It is a rotting corpse of capitalism that has been dead for years and is slowly being consumed by the parasite of government control.
 
You think people should be FORCED to buy health insurance? I don't think I'm the one who wants to protect the insurance companies.

We are forced to buy car insurance, and fined if we get caught driving without it.....so it isn't much of a stretch to make us buy health insurance...
In either case, not being insured makes others pay for our mistakes.
 
We are forced to buy car insurance, and fined if we get caught driving without it.....so it isn't much of a stretch to make us buy health insurance...
In either case, not being insured makes others pay for our mistakes.

The only reason others pay for their mistakes is because the government you're such a fan of forces others to pay for them.
 
The only reason others pay for their mistakes is because the government you're such a fan of forces others to pay for them.

The balance of payments is a little more complex.

Municipalities derive taxes from businesses, often in downtown shopping sections.

Beggars. charity soliciors, find these dstricts lucrative and fill up the streets. The beggars get a little over-assertive, and customers complain to the stores about the beggars in front, and start going to the suburbs to shop. The Store owners call the police and the city council, and the poor people with no helath inusrance are beaten by the police and driven from the business districrts.

The beaten up poor people need health care, so the municiplites get sued every so often by beaten up poor people. The municipality opens up a Municipal Hospital to take care of the beaten up poor people, and give them medications so the poor people will not go into the business districts to beg, and deter shoppers.

The perscription drug plan helped keep poor and elderly from the business districts for begging, and otherwise distracting paying customers. So if Charity is the Answer, then the police forces need to be cut back from beating up beggars in municipal business districts. Charity should then be a more effective option, if there were true capatilistic competition for the dollars of shppers, to either help the poor, or to buy a new blouse or shirt they don't need.

Health care for the poor is partly about keeping the poor out of sight, so we don't have to think about it. Just like 6000 children died yesterday in poor sections of countries from unsafe drinking water, but none of them make the news, and there is not enough money to do anything but a random autopsy and less frequent testing of the drinking water. The US Congress appropriated funding for safe drinking water and held hearings where Condaleesa Rice hemmed and hawed about why she had not spend the money appropriated for Afrian safe drinking water.

Why is it that capitalism does not give solicitation for charity an equal chance? I am fortunate to have had the experience of being poor and of being beaten by the police. Most people don't know the disappointing feeling when the police, who yo thought would protect you, start swinging batons at your head and kicking you when you go down to cover your head.



..
 
Last edited:
The only reason others pay for their mistakes is because the government you're such a fan of forces others to pay for them.

you don't like the message so you attack the messenger?
why are you going childish? oh yeah, you are still a child. Guess I will just have to excuse your behaviour until you are older and wiser. For now, I blame your parents and/or society....:roll:

Just because I describe the system that is in place doesn't mean that I approve of it....I believe in personal responsibility, which does not make me a fan of government as it is.
 
You think people should be FORCED to buy health insurance? I don't think I'm the one who wants to protect the insurance companies.

You think they shoudn't? If so, please explain why...
 
You think they shoudn't? If so, please explain why...

Force to buy health insurance might be effectuated by a payroll tax for health care. There could be some choices, with a default selection if no choice is made. Then any indivual, on payroll health insurance, would be covered to some specified extent.

It is not clear how the payroll tax health insurance would work for sporadic or very limitied part-time employees.

If unemployment insurance is provided, then a payroll health insurance deduction could be taken by the government, unless the unemployed individual could show that he was paying for insurance on his own.

How would this work for long-term unemployed, or chronically under-employed individuals is not clear to me, except as a public option of some kind.

What is being proposed is a helath care tax for small businesses, unless they can prove they are providing health insurance.

..
 
Last edited:
Force to buy health insutance might be effectuated by a payroll tax for health care. Ther could be some choices, with a default selection if no choice is made. The any indivual on payroll health insurance would be covered to some specified extent.

It is not clear how the payroll tax helath insurance would work for spradice or very limitied part-time employees.

If unemploymen insurance is provided, the a payroll health insuranc deduction could be taken, unless the unemployed individual could show that he was paying for insurance on hisown.

How would this work for long-term unemployed, or chronically under-employed individuals is not clear to me, except as a public option of some kind.



..

what is spradice?

I agree that a public option is pretty much unavoidable for those who don't work, but we should be looking at WHY they don't work..
I am for helping the truly needy, the rest can go on workfare...
If you don't have a job but are physically able to work, and have proven that no one will hire you, then you show up at certain designated spots at city/county/state offices and they find something for you to do....
The ACLU probably won't like it, tho...
 
I was unable to find the post with Ron Paul's plan, that I thought was posted earlier in the thread.

"Paul has introduced a bill that would provide tax credits and medical savings as a means of expanding health insurance coverage."


Obama's health care plan will be 'incredibly expensive,' Ron Paul tells East Grand Rapids conservative luncheon - MLive.com

Ron Paul's 2007 positions on Health Care

Ron Paul on Health Care



How about cometiton for medicare, HR 1118?

Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)


Health care is limited and scarce, and desired more quickly than is availabvle. Waiting for appointments is one form of rationing. High charges for Emergency room care reduces the immediate services sought at hospital emergency rooms.



..
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom