The Case for the Nuclear Option

[Ahlevah]

Gee, or maybe rather than starting a global thermonuclear war we actually use our brains, especially since we supposedly know all about this oncoming invasion.

So why aren't you using yours and giving us a solution? Your opponent has a tremendous conventional advantage because your country is filled with pacifistic morons who never met a weapon they liked. What would you do to prevent an invasion, or would you even bother trying? I promise it's not a trick question. I still have you in the "do nothing" category.

Well gee, for starters I wouldn’t get American cities incinerated because the idea of nuking Russia gives some folks a boner

Yeah, we know. You already said that.

No, the fairy tale is thinking supporting brutal tyrants is a good thing “because communism”. I hate to break it to you but the despots we sponsored were not some “necessary step on the road to democracy”; they were just brutal despots.

Well, it seemed to be a good idea in countries like Greece, Chile, and South Korea. I know it pains you, but all of these countries are democracies today, no thanks to communists, Marxists, or practitioners of liberation theology.

Well gee, they need some way to escape the civil wars and death squads created as a result of American foreign policy, and America is relatively safer than home(unless, of course, you happen to make the mistake of speaking out against those despots).

I'm just wondering why you have an American flag under your avatar if you hate it so much. I mean, you really come off like you're ashamed to be an American. So just do yourself a favor and ditch the flag.

Funnily enough, political ideologies have actual meanings. I get that to people like you anyone to the left of Pinochet is a “commie”, but that doesn’t actually change the facts, funnily enough.

We are the company we keep, and if we're keeping company with the Soviet Union in the middle of the Cold War while monopolizing American companies and blaming the United States (like some people we know) for all of the problems of Chileans then forgive one for concluding, at the least, that Allende was bad news. I mean, it's not like we haven't seen this movie before, and it never has a happy ending. Do you happen to know of a movie with a Marxist leader that has a happy ending?

 

[Tigerace117]

So why aren't you using yours and giving us a solution? Your opponent has a tremendous conventional advantage because your country is filled with pacifistic morons who never met a weapon they liked. What would you do to prevent an invasion, or would you even bother trying? I promise it's not a trick question. I still have you in the "do nothing" category.



Yeah, we know. You already said that.



Well, it seemed to be a good idea in countries like Greece, Chile, and South Korea. I know it pains you, but all of these countries are democracies today, no thanks to communists, Marxists, or practitioners of liberation theology.



I'm just wondering why you have an American flag under your avatar if you hate it so much. I mean, you really come off like you're ashamed to be an American. So just do yourself a favor and ditch the flag.



We are the company we keep, and if we're keeping company with the Soviet Union in the middle of the Cold War while monopolizing American companies and blaming the United States (like some people we know) for all of the problems of Chileans then forgive one for concluding, at the least, that Allende was bad news. I mean, it's not like we haven't seen this movie before, and it never has a happy ending. Do you happen to know of a movie with a Marxist leader that has a happy ending?

Claiming that opposing a NATO first strike makes one a “pacifistic moron” is so incredibly stupid it’s almost comical.

Lol no, it very much wasn’t, and anyone who still thinks supporting Pinochet or Greece’s vicious thugs was a good thing is totally clueless. Those countries are democracies today despite their brutal dictators, not because of them. But let me guess—-you cheered when that psycho blew Oscar Romero away.

Gee, funnily enough one of the nice things about America is that I can point out when we did really evil things—like support vicious tyrants in the name of “anti communism”—and condemn them, no matter how much that triggers you.

OMG, a Latin American leader who dared criticize the US? He must be a commie! And we wonder why anti Americanism is so strong down there

 

[Ahlevah]

Claiming that opposing a NATO first strike makes one a “pacifistic moron” is so incredibly stupid it’s almost comical.

Who did that? Where? Are you feeling guilty or something? I was referring to the hypothetical pacifist morons who would allow the country to face an overwhelming
conventional disadvantage.

Lol no, it very much wasn’t, and anyone who still thinks supporting Pinochet or Greece’s vicious thugs was a good thing is totally clueless. Those countries are democracies today despite their brutal dictators, not because of them. But let me guess—-you cheered when that psycho blew Oscar Romero away.

Yeah, but the pattern I notice is the brutal dictators wo give up power generally aren't socialists, Marxist-Leninists, communists, or whatever you want to call them.

Gee, funnily enough one of the nice things about America is that I can point out when we did really evil things—like support vicious tyrants in the name of “anti communism”—and condemn them, no matter how much that triggers you.

Don't flatter yourself. You guys are a dime a dozen. But you really do seem to hate America.

OMG, a Latin American leader who dared criticize the US? He must be a commie! And we wonder why anti Americanism is so strong down there

Okay, so you won't give us your plan to save Europe from overwhelming invasion. Time's up. Surrender it is then. And I really think the problem is not with us, but with Latin America. The entire continent is a perennial basket case, except for Chile, Uruguay (another example of a country where things got ugly but today is a democratic state with a decent economy), and I can't remember what else. Colombia maybe? Not a whole lot of pickings at this point.

 

[Tigerace117]

Who did that? Where? Are you feeling guilty or something? I was referring to the hypothetical pacifist morons who would allow the country to face an overwhelming
conventional disadvantage.



Yeah, but the pattern I notice is the brutal dictators wo give up power generally aren't socialists, Marxist-Leninists, communists, or whatever you want to call them.



Don't flatter yourself. You guys are a dime a dozen. But you really do seem to hate America.



Okay, so you won't give us your plan to save Europe from overwhelming invasion. Time's up. Surrender it is then. And I really think the problem is not with us, but with Latin America. The entire continent is a perennial basket case, except for Chile, Uruguay (another example of a country where things got ugly but today is a democratic state with a decent economy), and I can't remember what else. Colombia maybe? Not a whole lot of pickings at this point.

You literally just did. Do you miss the entire point of the thread?

None of which changes the fact that they are vicious thugs who slaughtered untold numbers of innocents in the name of “anti communism”.

Once again, the nice thing about America is that I’m allowed to call out the evil shit we do, like sponsoring brutal tyrants in the name of “anti communism”.

Amazing how bad things can get when a foreign superpower routinely interferes in your domestic politics and props up the most vicious thugs in your country.

 

[Fledermaus]

You literally just did. Do you miss the entire point of the thread?

None of which changes the fact that they are vicious thugs who slaughtered untold numbers of innocents in the name of “anti communism”.

Once again, the nice thing about America is that I’m allowed to call out the evil shit we do, like sponsoring brutal tyrants in the name of “anti communism”.

Amazing how bad things can get when a foreign superpower routinely interferes in your domestic politics and props up the most vicious thugs in your country.

Tell us of the kind and peaceful Communist nations......

Cuba - Outright dictatorship
China - Millions slaughtered for the good of the party and in the name of the red book
Russia - Purges, Holodomor, Invasions, Iron Curtain
East Germany - Slaughtering your countrymen for daring leave the workers paradise.
North Korea - Dictatorship + Crazy = Its a family tradition
North Vietnam - Rampant slaughter and re-education
Cambodia - The Killing fields.

Yeah, it could have been worse.

 

[Fledermaus]

“ Although at least six U.S. citizens had been "disappeared" by the Argentine military by 1976 <Snip>

But....but....but....communism!

Dirty War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

• Siad Barre 50,000 to 100,000
• Mengistu Haile Mariam 225,000 to 2,000,000
• North Korea 710,000 to 3,500,000
• Vladimir Lenin 1,101,000 to 10,442,168
• Joseph Stalin 8,688,614 to 42,673,000[515]
• Hungarian People's Republic 7,000 to 13,748
• Czechoslovak Socialist Republic 24,000 to 181,000
• Socialist Republic of Romania 100,000 to 920,000 [516]
• People's Republic of Bulgaria 31,000 to 220,000
• Communist Yugoslavia 60,000 to 802,000
• Communist Afghanistan 500,000 to 2,000,000 [63][64]
• Mao Zedong 14,627,560 to 80,170,000
  • Deng Xiaoping Between the years: 1976 and 1986 (Death toll included with Mao)
• Communist Mozambique 83,000 to 250,000
• Cuba 29,919 to 141,000
• Enver Hoxha 5,000 to 11,180
• Vietnam 145,225 to 1,082,000
• Pol Pot 1,386,734 to 3,400,000
• People's Republic of Angola 100,000 to 200,000
• Heng Samrin 68,000 to 383,000
• Mongolian People's Republic 35,000 to 200,000
• Sandinista National Liberation Front 5000
• Polish People's Republic 10,000 to 54,000
• Communist Greece 14,000 to 25,000
• Bela Kun 5,032
• Communist Laos 46,000 to 77,000
• Zanzibar 3,000 to 13,000
• South Yemen 1,000
• East Germany 327 to 70,000

 

[Fledermaus]

“ To Western governments, the killings and purges were seen as victory over communism at the height of the Cold War. <Snip>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965–1966#Massacres

But.....but.....but......communism!

See below.

• Siad Barre 50,000 to 100,000
• Mengistu Haile Mariam 225,000 to 2,000,000
• North Korea 710,000 to 3,500,000
• Vladimir Lenin 1,101,000 to 10,442,168
• Joseph Stalin 8,688,614 to 42,673,000[515]
• Hungarian People's Republic 7,000 to 13,748
• Czechoslovak Socialist Republic 24,000 to 181,000
• Socialist Republic of Romania 100,000 to 920,000 [516]
• People's Republic of Bulgaria 31,000 to 220,000
• Communist Yugoslavia 60,000 to 802,000
• Communist Afghanistan 500,000 to 2,000,000 [63][64]
• Mao Zedong 14,627,560 to 80,170,000
  • Deng Xiaoping Between the years: 1976 and 1986 (Death toll included with Mao)
• Communist Mozambique 83,000 to 250,000
• Cuba 29,919 to 141,000
• Enver Hoxha 5,000 to 11,180
• Vietnam 145,225 to 1,082,000
• Pol Pot 1,386,734 to 3,400,000
• People's Republic of Angola 100,000 to 200,000
• Heng Samrin 68,000 to 383,000
• Mongolian People's Republic 35,000 to 200,000
• Sandinista National Liberation Front 5000
• Polish People's Republic 10,000 to 54,000
• Communist Greece 14,000 to 25,000
• Bela Kun 5,032
• Communist Laos 46,000 to 77,000
• Zanzibar 3,000 to 13,000
• South Yemen 1,000
• East Germany 327 to 70,000

 

[Fledermaus]

“ Soon after taking office, Stroessner placed the entire country under a state of siege and suspended civil liberties. The state-of-siege provisions allowed the government to arrest and detain anyone indefinitely without trial, as well as forbid public meetings and demonstrations. It was renewed every 90 days until 1987, except for a brief period in 1959. Although it technically only applied to Asunción after 1970, the courts ruled that anyone charged with security offenses could be brought to the capital and charged under the state-of-siege provisions—even if the offense took place outside the capital.[3][4] Apart from one 24-hour period on election days, Stroessner ruled under what amounted to martial law for nearly all of his tenure. A devoted anti-communist who brought Paraguay into the World Anti-Communist League, he justified his repression as a necessary measure to protect the country.

Paraguay enjoyed close military and economic ties with the United States and supported the US invasion of the Dominican Republic.[5] The Stroessner regime even offered to send troops to Vietnam alongside the Americans.[6] The United States played a "critical supporting role" in the domestic affairs of Stoessner's Paraguay.[7] Between 1962 and 1975 the US provided $146 million to Paraguay's military government and Paraguayan officers were trained at the US Army School of the Americas.[8] Although the military and security forces under Stroessner received less material support from the United States than other South American countries, strong inter-military connections existed through military advisors and military training. Between 1962 and 1966, nearly 400 Paraguayan military personnel were trained by the United States in the Panama Canal Zone and on US soil.[9] Strong Paraguayan-U.S. relations continued until the Carter Administration emphasized a foreign policy that recognized human rights abuses, although both military and economic aid were allotted to the Paraguayan government in Carter's budgets.[10] The Reagan Administration restored more cordial relations due to Stroessner's staunch anti-communism, but by the mid 1980s relations cooled, largely because of the international outcry over the regime's excesses, along with its involvement in narcotics trafficking and money-laundering.[11][12][13] In 1986, The Reagan administration added his regime to its list of Latin American dictatorships.[14]

Paraguay was a leading participant in Operation Condor, a campaign of state terror and security operations officially implemented in 1975 which were jointly conducted by the military dictatorships of six South American countries (Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay and Brazil) with the support of the United States.[22][23][24][25] Human rights violations characteristic of those in other South American countries such as kidnappings, torture, forced disappearances and extrajudicial killings were routine and systematic during the Stroessner regime. Following executions, many of the bodies of those killed by the regime were dumped in the Chaco or the Río Paraguay. The discovery of the "Archives of Terror" in 1992 in the Lambaré suburb of Asunción confirmed allegations of widespread human rights violations.[26]

Pastor Coronel was the chief of the Department of Investigations, or secret police. He would interview people in a pileta, a bath of human vomit and excrement, or ram electric cattle prods up their rectums.[27][28][12] In 1975, the Secretary of the Paraguayan Communist Party, Miguel Ángel Soler [es], was dismembered alive with a chainsaw while Stroessner listened on the phone.[27][29][30][31] The screams of tortured dissidents were often recorded and played over the phone to family members, and sometimes the bloody garments of those killed were sent to their homes.[15]

Under Stroessner, egregious human rights violations were committed against the Aché Indian population of Paraguay's eastern districts, largely as the result of U.S. and European corporations wanting access to the country's forests, mines and grazing lands.[32][8] The Aché Indians resided on land that was coveted and had resisted relocation attempts by the Paraguayan army. The government retaliated with massacres and forced many Aché into slavery. In 1974 the UN accused Paraguay of slavery and genocide. Only a few hundred Aché remained alive by the late 1970s.[8] The Stroessner regime financed this genocide with U.S. aid.[8]”

But...but......but.....communism!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo_Stroessner#Dictatorship_(1954–1989)

Spamming

 

[Ahlevah]

But...but......but.....communism!

Yeah, they’re still here. I really don’t think you give a shit about people. They’re dying of starvation in our own hemisphere and you’re AWOL. I mean, you’re not even on the same planet as the rest of us. How many people have to be imprisoned, executed, or starved to death before you say anything other than the vitriol you level at your own government? As I said, I don’t condone all of the things done in the name of the American people, but I’m glad we’re here because the good we’ve done vastly outweighs the bad, try as you might to prove otherwise. However, I have to chime in on the Biden Administration’s support of the evil “socialist” Maduro regime in Venezuela that looted the national oil company, completely destroying the country in the process, and is now directly involved in sending poison to America.

Marxists Are Killing Each Other to Control America’s Cocaine Market

“Socialism, this is the path to save the planet, I don’t have the least doubt. Capitalism is the road to hell," Venezuela's Hugo Chavez told the 2009 Copenh

thewashingtonstandard.com

 

[Fledermaus]

Gee, and in your world the “solution” is to impose another brutal tyrant in place of Maduro whose only difference would be killing people in the name of anti communism instead of Hugo Chavez

“ For the most part, Zaire enjoyed warm relations with the United States. The United States was the third largest donor of aid to Zaire (after Belgium and France), and Mobutu befriended several US presidents, including Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, and George H. W. Bush. Relations did cool significantly in 1974–1975 over Mobutu's increasingly radical rhetoric (which included his scathing denunciations of American foreign policy),[77] and plummeted to an all-time low in the summer of 1975, when Mobutu accused the Central Intelligence Agency of plotting his overthrow and arrested eleven senior Zairian generals and several civilians, and condemned (in absentia) a former head of the Central Bank (Albert Ndele).[77] However, many people viewed these charges with skepticism; in fact, one of Mobutu's staunchest critics, Nzongola-Ntalaja, speculated that Mobutu invented the plot as an excuse to purge the military of talented officers who might otherwise pose a threat to his rule.[78] In spite of these hindrances, the chilly relationship quickly thawed when both countries found each other supporting the same side during the Angolan Civil War.

Because of Mobutu's poor human rights record, the Carter Administration put some distance between itself and the Kinshasa government;[79] even so, Zaire received nearly half the foreign aid Carter allocated to sub-Saharan Africa.[80] During the first Shaba invasion, the United States played a relatively inconsequential role; its belated intervention consisted of little more than the delivery of non-lethal supplies. But during the second Shaba invasion, the US played a much more active and decisive role by providing transportation and logistical support to the French and Belgian paratroopers that were deployed to aid Mobutu against the rebels. Carter echoed Mobutu's (unsubstantiated) charges of Soviet and Cuban aid to the rebels, until it was apparent that no hard evidence existed to verify his claims.[81] In 1980, the US House of Representatives voted to terminate military aid to Zaire, but the US Senate reinstated the funds, in response to pressure from Carter and American business interests in Zaire.[82]

Mobutu enjoyed a very warm relationship with the Reagan Administration, through financial donations. During Reagan's presidency, Mobutu visited the White House three times, and criticism of Zaire's human rights record by the US was effectively muted. During a state visit by Mobutu in 1983, Reagan praised the Zairian strongman as "a voice of good sense and goodwill".[83]”

But....but...but....communism!

Mobutu Sese Seko - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The fact of the matter is that one of the main principles the US was founded on was the ability to call out the government for doing really evil shit, and we’ve done a LOT in the name of “anti communism”. No matter how much that triggers you and other apologists for tyrants.

See post #84

 

[Ahlevah]

The fact of the matter is that one of the main principles the US was founded on was the ability to call out the government for doing really evil shit, and we’ve done a LOT in the name of “anti communism”. No matter how much that triggers you and other apologists for tyrants.

Yeah, and it would be awesome if you could do that in Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, North Korea, or any of the other socialist paradises whose governments you’re characteristically mum on, but, alas, you can’t.

Basically, what it comes down to is communism’s biggest cheerleader and benefactor, the USSR, imploded in 1991. Unfortunately, the Marxist-Leninists who comprised the bulk of the international socialist movement didn’t implode with it. They never left.

They’ve rebranded themselves as European-style social democrats because “communism” has become a dirty word synonymous with death and suffering, but they never gave up the defining characteristics of their movement, such as a visceral hatred of capitalism and capitalists. Now they’ve added a new buzzword: “neoliberalism.” Say what you want about Pinochet and the junta, but Chile’s “neoliberal” economy was Latin America’s most prosperous in recent decades, and lifted millions of Chileans out of poverty. I sincerely hope the “socialists” don’t screw it up, but I’ll bet the phones in Miami real estate offices are already ringing with members of Chile’s wealthy and entrepreneurial classes hedging their bets, just as smart Venezuelans did after the “socialist” Hugo Chavez took power.

 

[noonereal]

The excellent analysis by Edward Luttwak in the August 1982 issue of Commentary Magazine (link), (which I will send a PDF copy of upon DM request) makes a case for a vital nuclear option in the Ukraine War (special military option) and indeed illustrates it. Ukraine is not a perfect country by any means but it is certainly better than Russia as controlled by Putin. Our response should be effective, and not limited to the "coordinated cries of anguish and nicely orchestrated hand-wringing" (original phrase by William Safire, a New York Times columnist (link to Safire article)

He wrote those words relating to similar Soviet aggression against Poland, now playing out in similar manner as the unprovoked attack by Putin against Ukraine. Conventional defense, as we have seen in Mariopol, is allowing atrocities. As Luttwak pointed out, “the European system of peaceful construction needs is a preclusive method of protection, not ultimate victory after much destruction and millions of deaths.” P. 14 of Luttwak article. As the article further points out “If NATO could not hold the front by non-nuclear combat, it would warn the Soviet Union that (small-yield) nuclear weapons would be used to strike at the invading Soviet forces. And then it would strike with such weapons if the warning went unheeded.”

With regard to actual casualties of such an approach “(t)he entire "software" of discipline, of morale, of unit cohesion and esprit de corps and all the practices and habits that sustain the authority of sergeants, officers, and political commissars, are simply not built to withstand such terror as nuclear weapons would cause-even if at the end of the day it were to be discovered that the dead on all sides were surprisingly few.

One of the reasons that opposition to nuclear methodology is almost entirely on the liberal side of the political spectrum is that the Soviet Union and now the Russians have stoked fear of full-scale nuclear winter. The Russians are, from a practical standpoint, the only logical aggressors. The West is the only logical user of defensive nuclear weapons. That is why I favor the “nuclear option” being alive and well. We do not need to fight this conflict to the last Ukrainian.

Should? What a poorly worded question.

Personally I think it ridiculous to engage in war and not use any and all weapons.

That we engage in war is a testiment to our lowly nature as a species. No better or worse than the most vulgar "of God's creations."

 

[noonereal]

When and if they set a pinky toe in a NATO nation.

Which Russia won’t.

He will not invade but he may test us with a strike he denies.

PUTIN is a risk taker and believes in striking very hard, daring you to strike back.

Thank God Biden's even hand and understanding is at the helm.

 

[Tigerace117]

Yeah, and it would be awesome if you could do that in Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, North Korea, or any of the other socialist paradises whose governments you’re characteristically mum on, but, alas, you can’t.

Basically, what it comes down to is communism’s biggest cheerleader and benefactor, the USSR, imploded in 1991. Unfortunately, the Marxist-Leninists who comprised the bulk of the international socialist movement didn’t implode with it. They never left.

They’ve rebranded themselves as European-style social democrats because “communism” has become a dirty word synonymous with death and suffering, but they never gave up the defining characteristics of their movement, such as a visceral hatred of capitalism and capitalists. Now they’ve added a new buzzword: “neoliberalism.” Say what you want about Pinochet and the junta, but Chile’s “neoliberal” economy was Latin America’s most prosperous in recent decades, and lifted millions of Chileans out of poverty. I sincerely hope the “socialists” don’t screw it up, but I’ll bet the phones in Miami real estate offices are already ringing with members of Chile’s wealthy and entrepreneurial classes hedging their bets, just as smart Venezuelans did after the “socialist” Hugo Chavez took power.

Alas, unlike you I don’t cheerlead for tyrannical regimes in the name of “but the other guys!”

ESPECIALLY since in the cases of both Cuba and Nicaragua, said governments only came to power because the people there were so infuriated by years of brutality by US sponsored dictatorships that they snapped and went to the other extreme.

Basically, to the American right anyone to the left of Pinochet is a “communist” regardless of the facts, and that “justifies” the torture and murder of untold numbers of innocent people.

Yeah, and Hitler’s autobahns were really something too Trying to defend a brutal tyrant who murdered thousands by blubbering “but the economy” is pathetic.

 

[Fledermaus]

Alas, unlike you I don’t cheerlead for tyrannical regimes in the name of “but the other guys!”

ESPECIALLY since in the cases of both Cuba and Nicaragua, said governments only came to power because the people there were so infuriated by years of brutality by US sponsored dictatorships that they snapped and went to the other extreme.

Basically, to the American right anyone to the left of Pinochet is a “communist” regardless of the facts, and that “justifies” the torture and murder of untold numbers of innocent people.

Yeah, and Hitler’s autobahns were really something too Trying to defend a brutal tyrant who murdered thousands by blubbering “but the economy” is pathetic.

See Post #84

 

[Ahlevah]

Thank God Biden's even hand and understanding is at the helm.

One thing Biden is missing is that sanctions won’t dissuade Putin from achieving his strategic military objectives. Russian hardliners view Western “liberalism” as an existential threat to Russian society. A Russian intellectual I read framed it thus: Imagine telling a Christian he has to give up Jesus or face economic sanctions. Ain’t gonna happen. They’d rather forego the benefits of Western integration and trade than to agree to a fundamental restructuring of Russian society along the lines of a Western model.

The only way Putin will be stopped is militarily. Biden is viewed by Putin as weak. I don’t think his “even hand” has the stomach to do what it will take to end this thing, and neither do the Russians. For them this is a fight to the death.

 

[noonereal]

One thing Biden is missing is that sanctions won’t dissuade Putin from achieving his strategic military objectives. Russian hardliners view Western “liberalism” as an existential threat to Russian society. A Russian intellectual I read framed it thus: Imagine telling a Christian he has to give up Jesus or face economic sanctions. Ain’t gonna happen. They’d rather forego the benefits of Western integration and trade than to agree to a fundamental restructuring of Russian society along the lines of a Western model.

The only way Putin will be stopped is militarily. Biden is viewed by Putin as weak. I don’t think his “even hand” has the stomach to do what it will take to end this thing, and neither do the Russians. For them this is a fight to the death.

Sort of right. Sort of wrong.
First, Biden knows the sanctions will not stop Putin. It's a nessary move however to inflict some pain.
Few understand as clearly as you how this is existential to Putin. I give you props for this.

Where you go wrong is suggesting that Putin can be stopped military. I am surprised you don't understand this given you understand why this is important to Putin.

Putin will engage in mutual Armageddon before he is stopped with his efforts in Ukraine. He cannot be beaten militarily. We can only ensure no winner.

As to how he views Biden, wtf?
Biden has been steal. Putin has far more respect for Biden than he has any other world leader or any past president he has engaged with.
This is obvious.

Think if Trump were still in power. Ukraine would have folded by now, NATO would have effectively fallen apart and Russian would be looking at Poland next.

Biden has been the gold standard. Period.

 

[Ahlevah]

Alas, unlike you I don’t cheerlead for tyrannical regimes in the name of “but the other guys!”

ESPECIALLY since in the cases of both Cuba and Nicaragua, said governments only came to power because the people there were so infuriated by years of brutality by US sponsored dictatorships that they snapped and went to the other extreme.

Yeah, Cubans were so infuriated at America that they fled a Marist-Leninist utopia for Miami by the hundreds of thousands. Now, thanks to more Marxist-Leninist cluster****ing in Nicaragua, we have more infuriated refugees coming here, except I don’t think they’re coming here because they’re pissed at us. Somoza’s been dead and out of office for more than four decades. Most Nicaraguans living today weren’t even born then. So I don’t think that’s it. I think it has more to do with the communist Ortega stifling dissent and acting like a typical totalitarian.

Basically, to the American right anyone to the left of Pinochet is a “communist” regardless of the facts, and that “justifies” the torture and murder of untold numbers of innocent people.

If by “justify” you mean pointing out that Chileans have among the highest living standards in Latin America thanks to economic policies instituted by the junta, then, yeah, pencil me into the “guilty” column. I’d rather be there than silent when it comes to the greatest mass murderers in world history.

 

[Tigerace117]

Yeah, Cubans were so infuriated at America that they fled a Marist-Leninist utopia for Miami by the hundreds of thousands. Now, thanks to more Marxist-Leninist cluster****ing in Nicaragua, we have more infuriated refugees coming here, except I don’t think they’re coming here because they’re pissed at us. Somoza’s been dead and out of office for more than four decades. Most Nicaraguans living today weren’t even born then. So I don’t think that’s it. I think it has more to do with the communist Ortega stifling dissent and acting like a typical totalitarian.



If by “justify” you mean pointing out that Chileans have among the highest living standards in Latin America thanks to economic policies instituted by the junta, then, yeah, pencil me into the “guilty” column. I’d rather be there than silent when it comes to the greatest mass murderers in world history.

Gee, and yet when the exiles began their glorious, US supported campaign to overthrow Castro, they weren’t greeted as “liberators” as planned, but bloodily repulsed. Hmmm...funny how that went.

Yep, and Ortega only ever took power in the first place because the US propped a vicious tyrant up for decades. And then, gee, after that the US funded a bunch of glorified narcos for years and got caught waging a undeclared war against Nicaragua.

It’s sooooo surprising they don’t like us. Can’t imagine why

Oh look, more desperate attempts to try and excuse the junta’s campaign of mass murder. Case in ****ing point.

 

[Ahlevah]

Where you go wrong is suggesting that Putin can be stopped military. I am surprised you don't understand this given you understand why this is important to Putin.

Oh, he can be. But, like Hitler, Tojo, Saddam, or any other fanatic one would care to mention, it would take his destruction to do it. Yeah, I don’t think Putin’s car has a reverse gear.

Putin will engage in mutual Armageddon before he is stopped with his efforts in Ukraine. He cannot be beaten militarily. We can only ensure no winner.

Maybe someone with some sense will end this.

Putin has far more respect for Biden than he has any other world leader or any past president he has engaged with.
This is obvious.

Obvious how? I’m not feeling it. He’s certainly not afraid of being presented as a war criminal, to mention but one example.

 

[Ahlevah]

Gee, and yet when the exiles began their glorious, US supported campaign to overthrow Castro, they weren’t greeted as “liberators” as planned, but bloodily repulsed. Hmmm...funny how that went.

That was before they figured out Castro was going to turn the entire country into a giant prison filled with nothing but poor people and rich communists.

Yep, and Ortega only ever took power in the first place because the US propped a vicious tyrant up for decades.

No, he took power from within through good old fashioned repression. That’s what communists do when they can’t win with guns.

It’s sooooo surprising they don’t like us. Can’t imagine why

You keep saying that without offering any evidence to support it. Since most Nicaraguans weren’t even born at the time of Somoza, I’m going to claim bullshit.

Oh look, more desperate attempts to try and excuse the junta’s campaign of mass murder. Case in ****ing point.

The most prosperous country in Latin America resulted from economic policies instituted by a junta, That’s a fact.

 

[noonereal]

Obvious how? I’m not feeling it. He’s certainly not afraid of being presented as a war criminal, to mention but one example.

I already explained. Putin understands how Biden united NATO and the free world to not turn a blind eye. Putin knows he cannot go into NATO which most feel sure he had intended. It looks like Joe even made China understand how this would effect them.
Putin very much, very much respects Biden.
HE has never before been sucj clearly given parameters, parameters he knows are drop dead red lines, by anyone.

 

[Ahlevah]

I already explained. Putin understands how Biden united NATO and the free world to not turn a blind eye. Putin knows he cannot go into NATO which most feel sure he had intended. It looks like Joe even made China understand how this would effect them.
Putin very much, very much respects Biden.
HE has never before been sucj clearly given parameters, parameters he knows are drop dead red lines, by anyone.

Biden didn’t unite NATO. Putin did.

And, honestly, most of the leadership on the American response has come from Congress, not the Biden Administration. He’s trickling aid in now, but the bulk of it was initiated by our legislature. And he’s still dragging his feet on authorizing more-lethal aid, like Soviet-era aircraft and more-advanced, longer-range anti-aircraft systems. It’s embarrassing that a movie actor is trying to raise money to buy fighter jets for Ukraine.

 

[noonereal]

Biden didn’t unite NATO. Putin did.

And, honestly, most of the leadership on the American response has come from Congress, not the Biden Administration. He’s trickling aid in now, but the bulk of it was initiated by our legislature. And he’s still dragging his feet on authorizing more-lethal aid, like Soviet-era aircraft and more-advanced, longer-range anti-aircraft systems. It’s embarrassing that a movie actor is trying to raise money to buy fighter jets for Ukraine.

Biden has been gold. Honest.
Peace, brother.

 

[Ahlevah]

Biden has been gold. Honest.
Peace, brother.

Same to you. Let’s hope we’re both wrong (about Putin’s intent).