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The Best Laid Mandates of Mice and Men Oft Go Astray

LowDown

Curmudgeon
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Obama and the Democrats claim that the last election gave them a mandate. Their mandate is to come up with a "balanced" plan to reduce the deficit, which is to combine spending cuts with tax rate increases.

Republicans in Congress, on the other hand, also won all of their individual elections, and each of them rightly claims that they have a different mandate from their constituents. Their constituents will severely punish them in 2014 if they don't stay true to that mandate, which is to stop any efforts to raise tax rates. That was the moral of all those tea party Republicans who primaried their mainstream Republican opponents and then went on to lose in the national elections. The party is damaged by these mainstream wheeler dealers who go to Washington and cut deals with Democrats that result in more taxes and more spending. The red district voters are not having it any more. The mainstream guys got the message.

One might argue that Democrats' claim to a mandate are bogus. One does not get a mandate from a close election, especially when they won it the way they did. Nevertheless, I fully expect Obama to stick to this proposition like a barnacle. He has hardly shown any tendency toward compromise or flexibility up to now, I don't expect him to start compromising now unless by "compromise" he means that Republicans abandon all the principles that got them elected, and he has to abandon nothing.

What, then, to do? I have a modest proposal:

1. Let the nation go off the fiscal cliff. Let Taxmageddon reign. At least that way we get spending cuts. And Obama gets a really bad economy along with the rest of us. But the longer a correction is delayed the worse it will be.

2. Refuse to raise the debt ceiling. Let the government "shut down". That's more guaranteed spending cuts.

Spending cuts one way or the other, by God.

This would cause all hell to break loose, I realize. However, better that there is a fundamental change when we owe $13 trillion than to wait until we owe $20 trillion or more.

And, yes, the mainstream media would be shrilly blaming Republicans for the resulting displacements. But, in case nobody noticed, the last time the Republicans did this they paid no price. They actually gained in the next election despite all the bad press, or perhaps because of the bad press they got.

All of this leaves aside the idea that the President will accept tax increases by way of closing loopholes and removing deductions, as Boehner is proposing. I strongly suspect he won't do that. He will hold out for tax rate increases because ... well, because that's what he wants.
 
yes, president obama has made it clear he wants tax rate increases on those making more than 250,000/year. this has been no secret.
 
Obama and the Democrats claim that the last election gave them a mandate. Their mandate is to come up with a "balanced" plan to reduce the deficit, which is to combine spending cuts with tax rate increases.

Republicans in Congress, on the other hand, also won all of their individual elections, and each of them rightly claims that they have a different mandate from their constituents. Their constituents will severely punish them in 2014 if they don't stay true to that mandate, which is to stop any efforts to raise tax rates. That was the moral of all those tea party Republicans who primaried their mainstream Republican opponents and then went on to lose in the national elections. The party is damaged by these mainstream wheeler dealers who go to Washington and cut deals with Democrats that result in more taxes and more spending. The red district voters are not having it any more. The mainstream guys got the message.

One might argue that Democrats' claim to a mandate are bogus. One does not get a mandate from a close election, especially when they won it the way they did. Nevertheless, I fully expect Obama to stick to this proposition like a barnacle. He has hardly shown any tendency toward compromise or flexibility up to now, I don't expect him to start compromising now unless by "compromise" he means that Republicans abandon all the principles that got them elected, and he has to abandon nothing.

What, then, to do? I have a modest proposal:

1. Let the nation go off the fiscal cliff. Let Taxmageddon reign. At least that way we get spending cuts. And Obama gets a really bad economy along with the rest of us. But the longer a correction is delayed the worse it will be.

2. Refuse to raise the debt ceiling. Let the government "shut down". That's more guaranteed spending cuts.

Spending cuts one way or the other, by God.

This would cause all hell to break loose, I realize. However, better that there is a fundamental change when we owe $13 trillion than to wait until we owe $20 trillion or more.

And, yes, the mainstream media would be shrilly blaming Republicans for the resulting displacements. But, in case nobody noticed, the last time the Republicans did this they paid no price. They actually gained in the next election despite all the bad press, or perhaps because of the bad press they got.

All of this leaves aside the idea that the President will accept tax increases by way of closing loopholes and removing deductions, as Boehner is proposing. I strongly suspect he won't do that. He will hold out for tax rate increases because ... well, because that's what he wants.

Republicans are wrong to stand firm on not raising taxes. In fact, they're backing off that position -- now that the election's over.
 
Republicans are wrong to stand firm on not raising taxes. In fact, they're backing off that position -- now that the election's over.

That's what I said. They will bend on raising taxes but not on raising tax rates. So far, at least. I don't expect them to give on that unless polls show their constituents have changed their tunes.
 
yes, president obama has made it clear he wants tax rate increases on those making more than 250,000/year. this has been no secret.

Hell, even Republicans are coming around to that now. I've never understood why Republicans were so interested in committing political suicide for millionaires - many of whom happen to be Democrats anyway.
 
Hell, even Republicans are coming around to that now. I've never understood why Republicans were so interested in committing political suicide for millionaires - many of whom happen to be Democrats anyway.

me either, their staunch support of making sure the hyperwealthy pay negative taxes is the reason i've never voted for one. if they can change that position, and start seeing things from my perspective as a middle class american, that trend of mine may change.
 
Republicans are wrong to stand firm on not raising taxes. In fact, they're backing off that position -- now that the election's over.

I'll do you one better, Maggie.

I think the GOP are wrong in not evening out the tax burden.

By lowering tax rates but reducing tax exemptions we'd have individuals overall paying less in taxes but we'd have more individuals paying taxes.
 
That's what I said. They will bend on raising taxes but not on raising tax rates. So far, at least. I don't expect them to give on that unless polls show their constituents have changed their tunes.

And it's so stupid. Raise the tax rates and the richest among us will just use other methods to shelter their income. Reform the tax code? Eliminate some of the slap-happy deductions they're allowed? The effect will be the same.

Why should someone making $1 million a year get to deduct his home mortgage interest? Does he need that break to buy a nice home? Why should someone making $1 million a year get to deduct the mortgage interest on his second home? His real estate taxes on both? That's where the changes need to be made . . . not in the tax rates themselves, imo.
 
I'll do you one better, Maggie.

I think the GOP are wrong in not evening out the tax burden.

By lowering tax rates but reducing tax exemptions we'd have individuals overall paying less in taxes but we'd have more individuals paying taxes.

....isn't that what Romney proposed?
 
....isn't that what Romney proposed?

I believe so, but, as I remember it, he never gave much in the way of details as to how he'd go about doing it.

Besides, personally I don't think the President - neither Obama nor Romney - would be able to do it since it's Congress who writes the tax code and Representatives and Senators dole out tax exemptions based on what they get paid by lobbyists who represent special interests.
 
That's what I said. They will bend on raising taxes but not on raising tax rates. So far, at least. I don't expect them to give on that unless polls show their constituents have changed their tunes.

Generally, to raise taxes you need to raise tax rates. You're not still pitching Romney's nonsense about removing deductions from the rich. Jesus man, look up AMT and get educated.
 
....isn't that what Romney proposed?

He proposed lowering the tax rate on billionaires and getting rid of deductions, which billionaire don't get anyway due to AMT. Shall I do the math for you?
 
I have to say I agree with LowDown. The best thing for this country is to drive right off the cliff.
 
I have to say I agree with LowDown. The best thing for this country is to drive right off the cliff.

Tea party nihilism -- you're soaking in it.

It's all conservatives have left: a death wish for the nation.
 
Shall I do the math for you?

Yes please I could use a good laugh.

It's all conservatives have left: a death wish for the nation.

As long as morons like you are around it is not a wish it is an inevitability.
 
And it's so stupid. Raise the tax rates and the richest among us will just use other methods to shelter their income. Reform the tax code? Eliminate some of the slap-happy deductions they're allowed? The effect will be the same.

Not every rich person can just shelter extra income that easy.
 
Not every rich person can just shelter extra income that easy.

I'm not a "rich person." I've easily sheltered 25% of my assets in Federal tax-free stuff. Been doing it for years. Tax-free municipals earning 6% (for 20 years, by the way) is one vehicle; tax-deferred annuities is another. Those kinds of investments, plus jerking around with contributions to one's 401K, SEP/IRA, allows the more wealthy among us to shelter quite a bit. I could just as easily shelter 100% if I wanted to. It's not that difficult. And I don't have the advice of experts on these matters. Those accounting firms/accountants who are experts at our whore's nightmare of a tax code can save clients millions.
 
I'm not a "rich person." I've easily sheltered 25% of my assets in Federal tax-free stuff. Been doing it for years. Tax-free municipals earning 6% (for 20 years, by the way) is one vehicle; tax-deferred annuities is another. Those kinds of investments, plus jerking around with contributions to one's 401K, SEP/IRA, allows the more wealthy among us to shelter quite a bit. I could just as easily shelter 100% if I wanted to. It's not that difficult. And I don't have the advice of experts on these matters. Those accounting firms/accountants who are experts at our whore's nightmare of a tax code can save clients millions.

Everything, save for the Municipals, is only deferring your taxes, til you make withdrawals. Unless I'm mistaken on something, which I could be.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to hide some taxes, but if it were that easy to hide that large of a portion of it, rich people wouldn't pay any taxes, lol.

And if raising the tax rate really wouldn't increase revenue, or increase the amount they have to pay, why the **** have republicans been arguing against it for all these years?

We need super low tax rates, to help grow the economy, so please don't raise them, but it really doesn't matter if you raise them because they don't really have to pay them anyways...

I'm not interested in arguing in circles, lol.
 
Generally, to raise taxes you need to raise tax rates. You're not still pitching Romney's nonsense about removing deductions from the rich. Jesus man, look up AMT and get educated.

Yes, Obama and you want the rich to have unlimited special deductions from paying taxes. It is the prefect method of graft and bribery. A nickel on the dollar. A nickle in political "contributions" for a dollar in special tax deductions.

Obama is the greatest shill for the super rich this country has ever had.
 
I'm not saying that it's impossible to hide some taxes, but if it were that easy to hide that large of a portion of it, rich people wouldn't pay any taxes, lol.

A full 22,000 households that made more than $1 million in 2009 paid less than 15 percent of their income in income taxes — and 1,470 managed to pay no federal income taxes on their million-plus-dollar incomes, according to the IRS.

The Buffett Rule | The White House

Yeah, I get it. I won't argue the point. But I have to say that we had an example of that very same thing in Romney. And the left.went.nutz.
 
And it's so stupid. Raise the tax rates and the richest among us will just use other methods to shelter their income. Reform the tax code? Eliminate some of the slap-happy deductions they're allowed? The effect will be the same.

Why should someone making $1 million a year get to deduct his home mortgage interest? Does he need that break to buy a nice home? Why should someone making $1 million a year get to deduct the mortgage interest on his second home? His real estate taxes on both? That's where the changes need to be made . . . not in the tax rates themselves, imo.

You bring up a valid point about the deductions, the higher the marginal rate the MORE valuable these same deductions then become. Deductions of state/local taxes make no sense at all even less as the amount of income rises. These expenses are not "choices", expenses that would otherwise would not be incurred if different spending patterns were chosen. Take all of the social engineering out of the FIT code, its purpose is to raise federal revenue not to reward (create?) PC spending habits.
 
The Buffett Rule | The White House

Yeah, I get it. I won't argue the point. But I have to say that we had an example of that very same thing in Romney. And the left.went.nutz.

Isn't the claim that some million dollar plus income people pay no taxes bogus? The ATM is basically an income tax right? Can you get out of paying ATM?
 
Isn't the claim that some million dollar plus income people pay no taxes bogus? The ATM is basically an income tax right? Can you get out of paying ATM?

I don't know. Not according to that link that cites the IRS. If I find an IRS link, I'll post it. But here's what The Buffet Rule link says:

A full 22,000 households that made more than $1 million in 2009 paid less than 15 percent of their income in income taxes — and 1,470 managed to pay no federal income taxes on their million-plus-dollar incomes, according to the IRS.
 
The Buffett Rule | The White House

Yeah, I get it. I won't argue the point. But I have to say that we had an example of that very same thing in Romney. And the left.went.nutz.

That's part of the problem in this country. The left points out that there must be something wrong with the system if it's that easy to hide your tax liability and argue that everyone should play by the same rules, and right wing creams class warfare.
 
That is why we need a flat Federal sales tax. The reason why the tax code is so complex is by design. Lawyers create the conditions that allow for loopholes.
 
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