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Texas is NOT the only independent nation to join as a state.

Harshaw

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Or the first, for that matter.

And Texas does NOT have the option of seceding as part of its agreement to become a state.

That is all.

:2wave:
 
*sigh* this thread is going to be real interesting.....
 
*sigh* this thread is going to be real interesting.....

Not really, no one cares.

Texas was a Republic, if my history off the top of my head is right, we were the ONLY republic to join the USA. I believe Vermont, Hawaii, and I guess Cali (for like a month?) Could be off on that.

Unless of course you are gonna claim Indian Nations :roll:
 
Not really, no one cares.

Pretty much. The whole succession talk is all rather boring posturing.

Texas was a Republic, if my history off the top of my head is right, we were the ONLY republic to join the USA. I believe Vermont, Hawaii, and I guess Cali (for like a month?) Could be off on that.

Not quite. Hawaii was a monarchy that was overthrown and made into a territory. Vermont however, was a republic for all of 12 years.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_Republic]Vermont Republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
And Texas does NOT have the option of seceding as part of its agreement to become a state.

That is all.
Ok, just to be ornery.....

Texas DOES have the option of seceding as part of its agreement to become a state.

That is all.:mrgreen:
 
Ok, just to be ornery.....

Texas DOES have the option of seceding as part of its agreement to become a state.

That is all.:mrgreen:

No, this is actually just a myth.

Another Texas-related legend holds that Texans negotiated an annexation treaty that reserved the right to secede from the union without the US Congress, but the terms of Texas’ annexation contain no such provision.

snopes.com: Texas Dividing into Five States


Despite state mythology, Texas lacks right to secede | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Texas Politics | The Dallas Morning News

Unlike Texas, said state Rep. David Swinford, "other states know they don't have the right to secede. But that has been built into the Texas fabric, so we have the right to talk about it."

A poll of 500 Texans released Friday showed that 31 percent believe (incorrectly) the state retains the right to form an independent country. And another 18 percent said, given the opportunity, they would vote for Texas to secede.

The fact is, the treaty under which Texas joined the U.S. provides that it could be divided into five separate states. But it is not empowered to leave the union, a question that the Civil War seems to have settled once and for all.
 
No, this is actually just a myth.
Am curious....where in the annexation treaty is the language of perpetuity?

Article I of the treaty:
The Republic of Texas, acting in conformity with the wishes of the people and every department of its government, cedes to the United States all its territories, to be held by them in full property and sovereignty, and to be annexed to the said United States as one of their Territories, subject to the same constitutional provisions with their other Territories. This cession includes all public lots and squares, vacant lands, mines, minerals, salt lakes and springs, public edifices, fortifications, barracks, ports and harbours, navy and navy-yards, docks, magazines, arms, armaments and accoutrements, archives and public documents, public funds debts, taxes and dues unpaid at the time of the exchange of the ratifications of this treaty.

If the 10th Amendment allows states the right to secede, then the Annexation treaty does accord Texas the right to secede....although claiming it as a special right unique to the State of Texas is admittedly disingenuous.

As for the claim that the Civil War "settled" the issue of secession--it did no such thing, and in actuality the aftermath of Reconstruction and the legal contortions of Charles Sumner--with his theory of secession being tantamount to "state suicide"--and other Radical Republicans in forcing the Confederate States to be "readmitted" to the Union go a long way towards laying a legal foundation for the permissibility of secession.
 
Am curious....where in the annexation treaty is the language of perpetuity?

Article I of the treaty:

?? Are you aware of anything that indicates the treaty has an expiration date?

If the 10th Amendment allows states the right to secede, then the Annexation treaty does accord Texas the right to secede....although claiming it as a special right unique to the State of Texas is admittedly disingenuous.

Well, the 10th Amendment doesn't, so that puts that argument to rest.
 
?? Are you aware of anything that indicates the treaty has an expiration date?
Are you aware that in common law there is a rule against perpetuities? The question is not whether the treaty was of a specific duration but whether it was infinitely and absolutely durable. Without specific language to establish a perpetuity, the presumption should be that the treaty was not absolutely and infinitely durable.

Well, the 10th Amendment doesn't, so that puts that argument to rest.
Well, there is no definitive case law on point, and even Texas v White does not declare secession to be an absolute legal impossibility.

Further, you present no analysis, merely an assertion without rational support, so in actuality the argument, far from being put to rest, is not yet begun; you have yet to coherently argue your point of view.

Blather about the Civil War "settling" the matter is disqualified, because wars settle specific disputes at most; they are a poor basis for arguing resolution or removal of rights.
 
What the Civil War settled was that if a state or group of states seceded the rest of the country would be forced to make war on them for doing so. Which is what the comment "The civil war settled that" is all about.

Perry's rhetoric got a little overboard, Texas ain't going no where for now. He does have a point about the people here would be among the most LIKELY to be pissed off enough by an overbearing Fed and seek such action... but we're no where near such right now.
 
Sure, for private property.
And what rule of common law provides for perpetuity of statehood?

On what basis do you assert that the rule against perpetuities does not apply to statehood?
 
And what rule of common law provides for perpetuity of statehood?

That's a meaningless question. There need not be a "rule" at "common law" for something to be.

And besides, "common law" doesn't even exist outside the existence of a state (as in, a nation's legal system).


On what basis do you assert that the rule against perpetuities does not apply to statehood?

On the same basis that I assert that copyright law does not apply to statehood.

By the way, can you even state the Rule Against Perpetuities? If so, do so, and apply it to statehood.
 
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By the way, can you even state the Rule Against Perpetuities? If so, do so, and apply it to statehood.

The common law rule goes approximately thus:
No interest is good unless it must vest, if at all, not later than twenty-one years after some life in being at the creation of the interest. For the purposes of the rule, a life is "in being" at conception.

The Uniform Statutory Rule Against Perpetuities provides for an alternate vesting period of 90 years.

Vesting itself is the securing of a right for present or future enjoyment; a vested right is one that cannot be taken away in the future or by the action of a third party.

First I want to point out the fallacy of your argument that the rule applies only to private property. "Interest" can encompass property but it is broader than that, and in fact the rule dates to the 1682 case before the House of Lords involving Henry, Earl of Arundel and Duke of Norfolk, who attempted to establish shifting executory limitations for controlling the inheritance of his titles: specifically he attempted to, in the bequest of the title, regulate to whom the inheritor could pass the title. The rule is thus derived not from property per se.

In order to apply the rule against perpetuities to statehood, the question that must be addressed is what interests exist within the bonds of statehood for the union of states, and are those interests vested.

Does, for example, the union of states enjoy a possessory interest in the territory encompassing a state? There is no language in the Constitution that defines such an interest, and there are several constructions within the Constitution that suggest against such an interest. Within the Constitution proper, Article I Section 9 states that "No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State"; the Constitution thus precludes the union of states from deriving an income from the industry of a state--which capacity is rather essential to the nature of possessory interest. Article IV Section 2 precludes the Congress from creating new states from the territory of existing states without the express consent of the state's legislature, which restriction also binds against the union of states having a possessory interest in the territory of a state. The 10th Amendment specifically reserves all powers not explicitly delegated to the United States to either the states or "the people" more broadly, which again works to preclude possessory interest of the union of states against the territory of a state.

However, the Constitution does indicate significant interests of the United States in statehood. Article I Section 8 empowers Congress to regulate interstate commerce, as well as to foreign nations, and thus creates an articulable interest. Likewise the power of the President and Senate to conclude treaties on behalf of the entire United States creates an articulable interest of the United States in statehood.

Thus we may conclude that statehood creates for the United States a finite and definable set of interests. Can it be said, however, that those interests are vested interests? On what basis has the United States established that its interests are secured and inviolable?

Again, the Constitution is silent, except tangentially. Indeed, the Constitution says very little about statehood, except that Congress has the power to admit new states, and the guarantee of the federal government to the states of a republican form of government: "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence." (Article IV Section 4). Does the duty of protection establish vesting of the legitimate interests of the United States in statehood? It is difficult to see how this could be; even if one argues that said duty obligates the states to loyalty and obedience, the removal of statehood terminates the duty, but would also terminate the obligation--and vesting necessarily requires that the obligation extend even if the duty were eliminated. Again, the 10th Amendment, reserving powers and privileges to the states and not the United States, further suggests that the interests of the United States in statehood are not vested.

If the interests are not vested, it is certain that they will never vest. The limitation upon the Congress against the enacting of ex post facto laws renders such an eventuality legally impossible. Whatever the vesting status of the United States' interests in statehood are today, it is beyond the competence of Congress to alter that vesting status tomorrow.

Thus, as the interests of the United States in statehood are not vested, nor will they ever vest, the argument that statehood is irrevocable must be considered a violation of the rule against perpetuities. The United States, lacking a secured interest in statehood, has no legal power to enforce statehood on an unwilling state population. As the United States does not have the power to enforce statehood, the 10th Amendment reserves to the states the power to terminate statehood.

A just reading of the rule against perpetuities and the Constitution admits of no other conclusion.
 
Are you aware that in common law there is a rule against perpetuities?

Yes. Are you aware that Texas is slightly different from a CD player or an estate?

The question is not whether the treaty was of a specific duration but whether it was infinitely and absolutely durable. Without specific language to establish a perpetuity, the presumption should be that the treaty was not absolutely and infinitely durable.

Do you have any examples to support this assertion? Thanks in advance.


Well, there is no definitive case law on point, and even Texas v White does not declare secession to be an absolute legal impossibility.

Is there anything at all, from any legal authority, that would support your assertions here?

Further, you present no analysis, merely an assertion without rational support, so in actuality the argument, far from being put to rest, is not yet begun; you have yet to coherently argue your point of view.

Blather about the Civil War "settling" the matter is disqualified, because wars settle specific disputes at most; they are a poor basis for arguing resolution or removal of rights.

I'm not the one claiming the existence of a right that everyone else says doesn't exist.

The common law rule goes approximately thus:

...

A just reading of the rule against perpetuities and the Constitution admits of no other conclusion.

Very interesting, and it's not copy-pasted from anywhere. At the very least, thank you for that.

Nevertheless, do you have anything to support your assertions? You realize that you're making quite a few significant leaps of logic in there, and I'm not likely to believe it unless you can support them. I've never heard of anyone who ever claimed that the RAP applied to statehood, as it's in direct conflict with the entirety of our national experience.
 
The common law rule goes approximately thus:


The Uniform Statutory Rule Against Perpetuities provides for an alternate vesting period of 90 years.

Vesting itself is the securing of a right for present or future enjoyment; a vested right is one that cannot be taken away in the future or by the action of a third party.

First I want to point out the fallacy of your argument that the rule applies only to private property. "Interest" can encompass property but it is broader than that, and in fact the rule dates to the 1682 case before the House of Lords involving Henry, Earl of Arundel and Duke of Norfolk, who attempted to establish shifting executory limitations for controlling the inheritance of his titles: specifically he attempted to, in the bequest of the title, regulate to whom the inheritor could pass the title. The rule is thus derived not from property per se.

In order to apply the rule against perpetuities to statehood, the question that must be addressed is what interests exist within the bonds of statehood for the union of states, and are those interests vested.

Does, for example, the union of states enjoy a possessory interest in the territory encompassing a state? There is no language in the Constitution that defines such an interest, and there are several constructions within the Constitution that suggest against such an interest. Within the Constitution proper, Article I Section 9 states that "No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State"; the Constitution thus precludes the union of states from deriving an income from the industry of a state--which capacity is rather essential to the nature of possessory interest. Article IV Section 2 precludes the Congress from creating new states from the territory of existing states without the express consent of the state's legislature, which restriction also binds against the union of states having a possessory interest in the territory of a state. The 10th Amendment specifically reserves all powers not explicitly delegated to the United States to either the states or "the people" more broadly, which again works to preclude possessory interest of the union of states against the territory of a state.

However, the Constitution does indicate significant interests of the United States in statehood. Article I Section 8 empowers Congress to regulate interstate commerce, as well as to foreign nations, and thus creates an articulable interest. Likewise the power of the President and Senate to conclude treaties on behalf of the entire United States creates an articulable interest of the United States in statehood.

Thus we may conclude that statehood creates for the United States a finite and definable set of interests. Can it be said, however, that those interests are vested interests? On what basis has the United States established that its interests are secured and inviolable?

Again, the Constitution is silent, except tangentially. Indeed, the Constitution says very little about statehood, except that Congress has the power to admit new states, and the guarantee of the federal government to the states of a republican form of government: "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence." (Article IV Section 4). Does the duty of protection establish vesting of the legitimate interests of the United States in statehood? It is difficult to see how this could be; even if one argues that said duty obligates the states to loyalty and obedience, the removal of statehood terminates the duty, but would also terminate the obligation--and vesting necessarily requires that the obligation extend even if the duty were eliminated. Again, the 10th Amendment, reserving powers and privileges to the states and not the United States, further suggests that the interests of the United States in statehood are not vested.

If the interests are not vested, it is certain that they will never vest. The limitation upon the Congress against the enacting of ex post facto laws renders such an eventuality legally impossible. Whatever the vesting status of the United States' interests in statehood are today, it is beyond the competence of Congress to alter that vesting status tomorrow.

Thus, as the interests of the United States in statehood are not vested, nor will they ever vest, the argument that statehood is irrevocable must be considered a violation of the rule against perpetuities. The United States, lacking a secured interest in statehood, has no legal power to enforce statehood on an unwilling state population. As the United States does not have the power to enforce statehood, the 10th Amendment reserves to the states the power to terminate statehood.

A just reading of the rule against perpetuities and the Constitution admits of no other conclusion.

:roll:

This is all an outstanding example of how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You're throwing legal terms around like a kid with a gun and you have no idea what they mean.

The "interest" involved in the Rule Against Perpetuities is a property interest, and only a property interest.
 
Yes. Are you aware that Texas is slightly different from a CD player or an estate?
A title of nobility is also slightly different from a CD player or an estate, yet the rule against perpetuities derives from a 1682 case before the House of Lords involving titles.

Do you have any examples to support this assertion? Thanks in advance.
The support lies in the breach--e.g., The Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty between the United States and the Soviet Union was explicitly declared to be of infinite duration, while the Treaty of Tripoli made reference to a "firm and perpetual peace" with Tripoli. If such treaties retained their durable nature even with such language excised, the question is begged of what purpose the language serves. As such language operates to clarify the durability of the treaty, the apparent need for such clarification necessarily implies that, absent language establishing durability, a treaty is not inherently durable.

Speaking more to the potential of Texas to recant and rescind the Treaty of Annexation, we must look to history of the United States and various discourses on the Constitution.

First, we have Jefferson's words from the Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness[
The Declaration, while not black letter law, still asserts a fundamental right of the people to alter or abolish government.

Then we have the Preamble to the Constitution
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The "people" form the union known as the United States of America, and do so explicitly in order to guarantee their liberty and the liberty of their future generations. Again, the Preamble is not of itself black-letter law, but the Preamble again asserts the primacy of the people over the government.

Lysander Spooner's essay No Treason, written in 1869, describes the Constitution as a contract, and applies the language of contracts to its construction and interpretation, in particular to the Preamble:
It is plain, in the first place, that this language, AS AN AGREEMENT,purports to be only what it at most really was, viz., a contract between the people then existing; and, of necessity, binding, as a contract, only upon those then existing. In the second place, the language neither expresses nor implies that they had any right or power, to bind their "posterity" to live under it. It does not say that their "posterity" will, shall, or must live under it. It only says, in effect, that their hopes and motives in adopting it were that it might prove useful to their posterity, as well as to themselves, by promoting their union, safety, tranquility, liberty, etc.

Finally, the Treaty of Annexation itself is of the form of a bilateral contract, with duties owing to and from both parties (as are most treaties). Revocability of contract provisions as a principle of common law dates back to the early 1600's.

Thus there is a clear thrust in common law towards a certain impermanence of contractual terms, that absent clarification to the contrary and the vesting of interests, agreements are not durable in nature.

Only when the discussion turns to rights of secession are doctrines such as the rule against perpetuities and the revocability of contract provisions discarded, and arbitrarily so.

Is there anything at all, from any legal authority, that would support your assertions here?
Texas v White is the legal authority.
The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration, or revocation, except through revolution, or through consent of the States.

Just as the government cannot sustain a law that contravenes the Constitution (Marbury v. Madison, "an act of the legislature repugnant to the constitution is void."), neither can it consent to the exercise of a non-existent right. If, therefore, the states are empowered to consent to secession, the right of secession must exist, and the remainder of the discussion is merely to establish what boundaries, if any exist upon that right. While Texas v White argues the union of states to be to some degree indissoluble, it also moderates that degree by reference to "consent of the States."

Nevertheless, do you have anything to support your assertions? You realize that you're making quite a few significant leaps of logic in there, and I'm not likely to believe it unless you can support them. I've never heard of anyone who ever claimed that the RAP applied to statehood, as it's in direct conflict with the entirety of our national experience.
Please enumerate the "leaps of logic." That is your assertion, and by your own reasoning the burden is upon you to establish that such leaps exist in my reasoning. Please also take note that I have cited specific passages and Amendments to the Constitution--they are the support for my argument. If you challenge that support, again, by your reasoning, the burden is upon you to substantiate the challenge.
 
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This is all an outstanding example of how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You're throwing legal terms around like a kid with a gun and you have no idea what they mean.
An interesting ad hominem attack, given that you provide no support whatsoever for your assertions. Your pardon, sir, if I decline to accept your unsupported assertions as authoritative. Present your evidences to your charges, if you wish to make a case. I have made mine.

The "interest" involved in the Rule Against Perpetuities is a property interest, and only a property interest.

Very well....but as the rule against perpetuities descends from a case involving a title of nobility, and not a tract of land or an item of tangible personal property, exactly how does that distinction invalidate the application to the interests of the United States in statehood? "Property", from that perspective, is a fairly generous term, encompassing not merely tangibles but intangibles, including a variety of assignable contractual rights and privileges.
 
A title of nobility is also slightly different from a CD player or an estate, yet the rule against perpetuities derives from a 1682 case before the House of Lords involving titles.

And all three of them are different from the annexation of a state. So unless you have something else to support your argument by analogy, the train stops here.

The support lies in the breach--e.g., The Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty between the United States and the Soviet Union was explicitly declared to be of infinite duration, while the Treaty of Tripoli made reference to a "firm and perpetual peace" with Tripoli. If such treaties retained their durable nature even with such language excised, the question is begged of what purpose the language serves. As such language operates to clarify the durability of the treaty, the apparent need for such clarification necessarily implies that, absent language establishing durability, a treaty is not inherently durable.

So because a particular international treaty dealing with a completely different topic explicitly felt the need to include some language, you're arguing that the absence of that particular language from the annexation of a state proves that they intended for the annexation to end?

It really doesn't work like that. If you want to argue original intent here, you should go find something that indicates that was what they intended to do.

Speaking more to the potential of Texas to recant and rescind the Treaty of Annexation, we must look to history of the United States and various discourses on the Constitution.

First, we have Jefferson's words from the Declaration of Independence:

The Declaration, while not black letter law, still asserts a fundamental right of the people to alter or abolish government.

Setting aside the fact that it has no authority in this situation, it's a huge leap of logic to assume that Jefferson's sentiment in this one document are applicable to an annexation treaty a hundred years later, and were intended to apply the rule against perpetuities in a way that it has never been used or conceived of using.

Then we have the Preamble to the Constitution

The "people" form the union known as the United States of America, and do so explicitly in order to guarantee their liberty and the liberty of their future generations. Again, the Preamble is not of itself black-letter law, but the Preamble again asserts the primacy of the people over the government.

Again, nothing in the preamble supports your broad conclusion that states have the right to secede because of the RAP, or at all.

Lysander Spooner's essay No Treason, written in 1869, describes the Constitution as a contract, and applies the language of contracts to its construction and interpretation, in particular to the Preamble:

Again, nothing in this essay supports your broad conclusion that states have the right to secede because of the RAP, or at all.

Finally, the Treaty of Annexation itself is of the form of a bilateral contract, with duties owing to and from both parties (as are most treaties). Revocability of contract provisions as a principle of common law dates back to the early 1600's.

Setting aside the fact that treaties are distinct from contracts, revocation of a contract, assuming that this is one, requires a lot more than one party saying the other party is acting unfairly. You need to show me the provisions of the treaty that provide for rescission and how they warrant it here.

Thus there is a clear thrust in common law towards a certain impermanence of contractual terms, that absent clarification to the contrary and the vesting of interests, agreements are not durable in nature.

Only when the discussion turns to rights of secession are doctrines such as the rule against perpetuities and the revocability of contract provisions discarded, and arbitrarily so.

So you concede that it doesn't apply, and are now merely arguing that the law is unfair?

Also, it's again worth noting that there is a distinct difference between a treaty of annexation and an ongoing contract. My initial impression of a treaty of annexation is not that it is laying out a framework for an ongoing agreement ("We agree to continue as part of your union") but rather that it describes a one-time action ("We agree to allow the annexation of our state"). If the latter case is the proper reading, then the RAP is completely irrelevant because the treaty has already been concluded - Texas joined the union. Done and done, thread over.

Texas v White is the legal authority.

Just as the government cannot sustain a law that contravenes the Constitution (Marbury v. Madison, "an act of the legislature repugnant to the constitution is void."), neither can it consent to the exercise of a non-existent right. If, therefore, the states are empowered to consent to secession, the right of secession must exist, and the remainder of the discussion is merely to establish what boundaries, if any exist upon that right. While Texas v White argues the union of states to be to some degree indissoluble, it also moderates that degree by reference to "consent of the States."

I notice that you avoided bolding this particular sentence:

The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States.

:lol:

And you're completely misreading the last sentence. It's not suggesting that a state can leave should it decide to - it's suggesting that if the several states collectively decide to expel a state from the union or to allow the exit of a state, it can do so. It is completely distinct from the unilateral "right of secession" that you are asserting.

Please enumerate the "leaps of logic." That is your assertion, and by your own reasoning the burden is upon you to establish that such leaps exist in my reasoning. Please also take note that I have cited specific passages and Amendments to the Constitution--they are the support for my argument. If you challenge that support, again, by your reasoning, the burden is upon you to substantiate the challenge.

I just did.

And before you say "Well the Constitution/DoI/etc. says X," recognize that anyone can take the broad language of those documents and read any right that they want into it. That doesn't support your assertion of this right any more than citing the inalienable right to life supports the abolition of the death penalty. If you want to seriously argue that the right to secede is guaranteed to Texas by virtue of the RAP, or whatever it is that you're arguing, you should recognize that the weight of the authorities is strongly against you, and should endeavor to explain why they're wrong using specific examples.
 
And before you say "Well the Constitution/DoI/etc. says X," recognize that anyone can take the broad language of those documents and read any right that they want into it. That doesn't support your assertion of this right any more than citing the inalienable right to life supports the abolition of the death penalty. If you want to seriously argue that the right to secede is guaranteed to Texas by virtue of the RAP, or whatever it is that you're arguing, you should recognize that the weight of the authorities is strongly against you, and should endeavor to explain why they're wrong using specific examples.
The sad irony, of course, is that I am not arguing that the right exists in the Constitution, but that the right exists because the Constitution fails to preclude it.

But you've already established that you have little use for reason or for logic, being utterly unable to provide any of your own, so I am not surprised the distinction evades you.
 
The sad irony, of course, is that I am not arguing that the right exists in the Constitution, but that the right exists because the Constitution fails to preclude it.

But you've already established that you have little use for reason or for logic, being utterly unable to provide any of your own, so I am not surprised the distinction evades you.

:rofl Nice try.

The Declaration, while not black letter law, still asserts a fundamental right of the people to alter or abolish government.

Again, the Preamble is not of itself black-letter law, but the Preamble again asserts the primacy of the people over the government.

What are these, if not assertions that these documents contain language that affirmatively supports the right in question?

Even if you actually were merely arguing that the right exists because the Constitution doesn't preclude it, you would have to show that the RAP is generally applicable to treaties of annexation and that the treaty in question was not drafted in such a way as to preclude its applicability.

Furthermore, I noticed that you completely ignored the rest of my post where I laid bare your numerous other leaps of logic. Are you going to address them, or are you merely going to come back with some response about how I "just don't get it/don't understand the law" and then call it a day?
 
What are these, if not assertions that these documents contain language that affirmatively supports the right in question?
The Declaration affirmatively supports the right of secession, but I must inform you that the Declaration is not part of the Constitution.

The Preamble establishes the primacy of the people over the government. That is not an affirmation of the right to secede of itself, nor have I presented it as such. Absent a specific articulation or exclusion of right elsewhere in the Constitution, the default answer regarding the allocation of rights under the Constitution is always "to the people."

There is no articulation nor exclusion of a right of secession in the Constitution, and thus the right goes to "the people."
 
The Declaration affirmatively supports the right of secession, but I must inform you that the Declaration is not part of the Constitution.

Which is why I said:

And before you say "Well the Constitution/DoI/etc. says X,"

You were the one who responded to that by lumping it all under the Constitution, not I.

The Preamble establishes the primacy of the people over the government. That is not an affirmation of the right to secede of itself, nor have I presented it as such. Absent a specific articulation or exclusion of right elsewhere in the Constitution, the default answer regarding the allocation of rights under the Constitution is always "to the people."

And as I've explained numerous times, the decision of TX to allow its annexation ended whatever "right" the state of TX may have had to secede because no state has the right to secede, as TX v. White so clearly explicated:

The Constitution, in all its provisions, looks to an indestructible Union composed of indestructible States.

When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.

There is no articulation nor exclusion of a right of secession in the Constitution, and thus the right goes to "the people."

For the last time, you're making a very radical claim here, one that completely contradicts all existing authority. If you want to argue that everyone else is wrong, you need to provide evidence for your claim beyond "the10th Amendment says so."

Alternatively, you can just concede that your stance is in conflict with the law as it stands, but then argue that you think the law is wrong.

If that's what you're saying, we can agree to disagree, as we did on the 2nd Amendment thread. There's a difference between "The law is X" and "The law is Y, but I think it should be X."
 
For the last time, you're making a very radical claim here, one that completely contradicts all existing authority. If you want to argue that everyone else is wrong, you need to provide evidence for your claim beyond "the10th Amendment says so."
What is so radical about saying that the Constitution is silent on secession?

There is no part of the Constitution which speaks to the matter at all. You have not pointed that section out, for the very simple reason that it does not exist.
 
What is so radical about saying that the Constitution is silent on secession?

There is no part of the Constitution which speaks to the matter at all. You have not pointed that section out, for the very simple reason that it does not exist.

Do you just pick one part of each post to quibble about and ignore the rest?

And yes, you're right that there are no explicit words in the Constitution itself which explicitly say that states may not secede. However, as you know full well, the Court has interpreted the Constitution as precluding that very thing after considering the purpose and historical context of the Constitution and the accession of the states.

Are you going to continue to argue this, or are you just going to say that you're smarter than the Supreme Court again?
 
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