Terror -- The Uk's New Christmas export (1 Viewer)

[iangb]

Langb, I've seen many defend islam and Muslims in general terms (they're not all terrorists, Christians have done bad things too, etc.) but I've yet to see anyone say anything positive about the religion itself.

Do you feel that Islam is a good religion and the beliefs that flow from the Koran are positive and have contributed to better lives for its followers?

A couple of possible answers to this. Firstly, as inspired by Willam Rea's post (though on a slightly different note) - that it's really none of my business, as long as those beliefs don't cause them to harm anyone else - which is the case for the majority of Muslims. I had an answer building in my head before I saw WR's post though, so I'll add my own POV:

I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't see any personal attraction to any particular faith, but I don't consider any of them to be provably false. To quote Pratchett (et al) - "All religions are true, for a given value of 'true'." However, I recognise the fact my worldview is just one among many - that faith is a source of comfort and strength for a significant amount of people. As such, I'd say that Islam, like most other religions, can certainly have a positive impact in someone's life. Sometimes hope is important.

Sometimes not, of course, but that's what I argue against - the negative impacts/(ab)use of faith, rather than the faith itself.

 

[Grant]

A couple of possible answers to this. Firstly, as inspired by Willam Rea's post (though on a slightly different note) - that it's really none of my business, as long as those beliefs don't cause them to harm anyone else - which is the case for the majority of Muslims. I had an answer building in my head before I saw WR's post though, so I'll add my own POV:

I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't see any personal attraction to any particular faith, but I don't consider any of them to be provably false. To quote Pratchett (et al) - "All religions are true, for a given value of 'true'." However, I recognise the fact my worldview is just one among many - that faith is a source of comfort and strength for a significant amount of people. As such, I'd say that Islam, like most other religions, can certainly have a positive impact in someone's life. Sometimes hope is important.

Sometimes not, of course, but that's what I argue against - the negative impacts/(ab)use of faith, rather than the faith itself.

Thanks.

I'll take that as an "I don't have any idea".

 

[iangb]

A couple of possible answers to this. Firstly, as inspired by Willam Rea's post (though on a slightly different note) - that it's really none of my business, as long as those beliefs don't cause them to harm anyone else - which is the case for the majority of Muslims. I had an answer building in my head before I saw WR's post though, so I'll add my own POV:

I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't see any personal attraction to any particular faith, but I don't consider any of them to be provably false. To quote Pratchett (et al) - "All religions are true, for a given value of 'true'." However, I recognise the fact my worldview is just one among many - that faith is a source of comfort and strength for a significant amount of people. As such, I'd say that Islam, like most other religions, can certainly have a positive impact in someone's life. Sometimes hope is important.

Sometimes not, of course, but that's what I argue against - the negative impacts/(ab)use of faith, rather than the faith itself.

Thanks.

I'll take that as an "I don't have any idea".

Well, that's pretty much the opposite of what I said, so you'd be deliberately distorting my words. But feel free to take just that.

 

[Grant]

Well, that's pretty much the opposite of what I said, so you'd be deliberately distorting my words. But feel free to take just that.

There were so many waverings in there that is made little sense.

The highlighted part, "I'd say that Islam, like most other religions, can certainly have a positive impact in someone's life. Sometimes hope is important" says nothing. It 'can" have? "Sometimes"?

Yes, maybe it can, sometimes. But it really doesn't give your opinion or offer up any support one way or the other, does it?

It's too vague.

 

[iangb]

There were so many waverings in there that is made little sense.

The highlighted part, "I'd say that Islam, like most other religions, can certainly have a positive impact in someone's life. Sometimes hope is important" says nothing. It 'can" have? "Sometimes"?

Yes, maybe it can, sometimes. But it really doesn't give your opinion or offer up any support one way or the other, does it?

It's too vague.

That's almost my point. It's a religion. It's not intrinsically good, nor is it intrinsically bad - but it is certainly (ab)used for both peaceful and violent purposes. I would probably say that it has influenced more people in positive ways than in negative - but as always, we end up treading on heavily subjective ground with that statement. It's a certainty that many people have benefited from it, and not at the expense of others.

"Not inherently anything" would be my short answer. It's what you make of it that counts.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

Though you can tell me to keep my nose out for butting in, but I suppose a more probing question than is Islam good or bad could be what do you know about it?

And if the Koran lines I published would only lead some people to believe that it's only an abuse of Islam to obey them, it would be just as interesting to see how the answers are worded.

 

[ricksfolly]

I'm an agnostic atheist.

Don't quite understand... Are you saying you're a hedge-your-bets atheist?

Myself, I'm a stimulus/response machine.

ricksfolly

 

[iangb]

Don't quite understand... Are you saying you're a hedge-your-bets atheist?

Myself, I'm a stimulus/response machine.

ricksfolly

From elsewhere...

This is where it gets sticky, because there is a culture (in the US, it seems) of misusing the correct terms. To explain them here:

There are two different dichotomies [more like a sliding scale!] concerned here, 'theism' and 'gnosticism'.

Theism = "I believe in a God"
Atheism = "I have no belief in a God"

Gnosticism = "I am confident in my beliefs"
Agnosticism = "...but I'm not sure"

So we have four possible combinations overall.

Agnostic atheism: "I don't believe in God, but I might be wrong" (That's me, incidentally)
Gnostic atheism: "I don't believe in God, and I feel justified in this" (In other words, "I believe that belief in God is wrong")
Agnostic theism: "I believe in God, but totally without evidence" (the cynic in me would add "I was born into faith and haven't really thought about it", the anti-cynic in me would add "I think belief in God makes me a better person, regardless of whether it's true or not")
Gnostic theism: "I believe in God because I have evidence which (to me, at least) complels belief" (Note that people have different standards of 'evidence', as this thread indicates)

Pick your own!

[square brackets] added recently by me.

Though you can tell me to keep my nose out for butting in, but I suppose a more probing question than is Islam good or bad could be what do you know about it?

And if the Koran lines I published would only lead some people to believe that it's only an abuse of Islam to obey them, it would be just as interesting to see how the answers are worded.

Reading through the whole book is on my to-do list, but the Bible's been on that list for a good few years yet, so I don't see it happening any time soon.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

Well I put my nose in. And I got the moral equivilence football kicked straight into it!

Though the only real recurrent similarity between Bibles and Korans would likely be that WH Smiths sell them both.

 

[Mira]

Shame on you for using that little boy in the same revolting manner his parents are using him, RoP. Aren't there enough pictures of adults who actually know what the signs they're holding mean for you to post out there? I find the way all of you exploit little kids abhorrent.

That said, I'm also waiting for an explanation as to what those verses mean in context to a modern day Muslim. I wish someone would answer. It can't be all that complicated to explain.

In the meantime, please leave the little kids alone. They're not fruitcakes, they're the very first victims of extremism.

I'd be glad to explain Arcana but unfortunately any post which does not go with the flow of agressive Muslim bashing will be attacked.

If I reply to the attacks, there will be more attacks, if I don't then I'll be accused of running out of arguments. It's a very time consuming exercise to post on a forum. I have an extremely busy schedule and no time to play their stupid "I win you lose" game. This isn't a discussion forum at all, this a place where people pour out their frustrations and look for people who disagree with their narrow views in order to insult them because that makes them feel better. It somehow cools out their frustrations.

It is a waste of time and energy to discuss with people who if it wasn't for the internet, they wouldn't be able to utter a single word about politics. Beside their ability to copy-paste, they would not be able to put a single phrase together in a real life debate. Posting links from the internet, typing key words in order to find arguments that fit their train of thinking makes them look oh so smart. They even boast about the many years that they have been posting on multiple forums.

They are unable to come up with the slightest analysis of their own because they have never read a book and worst of all, they have never travelled and experienced life in the countries that they so vehemently criticise.

I can mostly speak out of my own experience in the Muslim world but then of course I cannot post frigging links to my personal findings and interaction with real people ou there.

I respect your point of view and trust you to find the answers that you're looking for.

take care.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

So no explanation of the 'right' way to 'interpret' Koran 9:29 to you then?

That brings the 'time of asking' score up to 7 I think.


Sorry you're so busy but you've hardly been without allies whenever Islam's been caught with its pants down again. (Not that too many questions were answered anyway). Leftists and Liberals are very keen to prop up the Religion of Peace's tattered reputation, virtually without regard for the issues too. If that's no a blank-cheque backup, I don't know what is.


Sorry about your frustration too but I used to be in situations hard to defend too. We all learn. And there's plenty of archive material online to back you up if something's true. So just relax and dip your toe in when you have a moment.

 

[iangb]

So no explanation of the 'right' way to 'interpret' Koran 9:29 to you then?

That brings the 'time of asking' score up to 7 I think.


Sorry you're so busy but you've hardly been without allies whenever Islam's been caught with its pants down again. (Not that too many questions were answered anyway). Leftists and Liberals are very keen to prop up the Religion of Peace's tattered reputation, virtually without regard for the issues too. If that's no a blank-cheque backup, I don't know what is.


Sorry about your frustration too but I used to be in situations hard to defend too. We all learn. And there's plenty of archive material online to back you up if something's true. So just relax and dip your toe in when you have a moment.

...was that aimed at me? I've already given a 'interpretation' of you Koranic verses - they should be viewed as historical contexts that applied at that time and in that place, not as generic catch-all commandments.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

...was that aimed at me?

No.

_________________________________

THEY'LL WANT THEIR OWN SHARIA CASINOS AND FEATHERY HEADGEAR NEXT: Imams Convention demands reservation for Indian Muslims

 

[Mira]

...was that aimed at me? I've already given a 'interpretation' of you Koranic verses - they should be viewed as historical contexts that applied at that time and in that place, not as generic catch-all commandments.

No, it was aimed at me and he proved my point so well and confirmed what I said in my post. It's quite funny actually

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

You're only moaning when the debate doesn't go right and then you play the textbook victim. You (Laila and Musa too) clam up when it comes to putting things right but quick to the chase to say I'm wrong. You're not 'too busy' for that!!

The only other 'point' made was a rant about backup evidence sourced from the web, plus people who can't put sentences together. If your opponents are that inferior that they can't even speak, why hiss and spit in frustration?

If anything, this proves my point about things like bluster when nothing else can do.



Never mind. Let's enjoy some PC gaming fun with a 'quality' Islamic video game which some considerate Muslim has uploaded: Hezbollah Special Forces 2 Video Game. - ShiaChat.com

Thanks to Mira's fellow Shias for hosting.

 

[William Rea]

You're only moaning when the debate doesn't go right and then you play the textbook victim. You (Laila and Musa too) clam up when it comes to putting things right but quick to the chase to say I'm wrong. You're not 'too busy' for that!!

The only other 'point' made was a rant about backup evidence sourced from the web, plus people who can't put sentences together. If your opponents are that inferior that they can't even speak, why hiss and spit in frustration?

If anything, this proves my point about things like bluster when nothing else can do.



Never mind. Let's enjoy some PC gaming fun with a 'quality' Islamic video game which some considerate Muslim has uploaded: Hezbollah Special Forces 2 Video Game. - ShiaChat.com

Thanks to Mira's fellow Shias for hosting.

Not responding to a Gish Gallop does not indicate losing the debate, it just indicates that people have grown tired of TRYING to explain that confirmation bias reinforced by questionable sources does not make an argument.

 

[alexa]

Thanks to Mira's fellow Shias for hosting.

Mira is not a Shia or even a Muslim. She is an atheist of Lebanese Christian descent. Her family were survivors of the Armenian genocide and fled to Lebanon. However Mira was brought up in a predominantly Muslim area. She has had Muslims as her neighbours and knows them from direct experience. She has spent time in their houses talking with them. She has shared in their experience as they have been bombed and she has also worked as a photographer in war zones.

She accurately described the process which happens on this forum when discussing certain subjects with some people. Islam and Muslims being a prime example.

 

[Mira]

Mira is not a Shia or even a Muslim. She is an atheist of Lebanese Christian descent. Her family were survivors of the Armenian genocide and fled to Lebanon. However Mira was brought up in a predominantly Muslim area. She has had Muslims as her neighbours and knows them from direct experience. She has spent time in their houses talking with them. She has shared in their experience as they have been bombed and she has also worked as a photographer in war zones.

She accurately described the process which happens on this forum when discussing certain subjects with some people. Islam and Muslims being a prime example.

Not mentioning of course having worked in Muslim countries such as Syria, Iran, the UAE, Egypt and Algeria. But mr. Public has understood it all by sitting on his arse and brousing through web sites written by god knows who.

William, I had to check the meaning of Gish Gallop and this is what I found

The Gish Gallop is an informal name for a rhetorical technique in debates that involves drowning the opponent in half-truths, lies, straw men, and bull**** to such a degree that the opponent cannot possibly answer every falsehood that has been raised, usually resulting in many involuntary twitches in frustration as the opponent struggles to decide where to start. It is named after creationism activist and professional debater Duane Gish.

LOLOLOL that describes some posters here so accurately :doh no wonder why they spend so much time on furums, I'm sure that the rest of their time they play video games.

Wake up and smell the coffee poor guys, there's a whole world outside of your computer screens.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

Mira is not a Shia or even a Muslim.

I gained the impression she was a Shia from a couple of things gleaned, for example her asking me the five pillars of Islam. Such as I remember are limited to Shias and some Sunnis. (Though I have seen post after post where she has spoken as if she were a Muslim in the first person perspective. And I'm sure she said she went to the mosque.)

 

[Mira]

I gained the impression she was a Shia from a couple of things gleaned, for example her asking me the five pillars of Islam. Such as I remember are limited to Shias and some Sunnis. (Though I have seen post after post where she has spoken as if she were a Muslim in the first person perspective. And I'm sure she said she went to the mosque.)

How dare you speak about Islam when you ignore the fact that the 5 pillars of Islam are the base of ALL of Islam ? Shais and some Sunnis ???? for pete's sake, go learn something before you post.

And how dare you pretend to know me as a poster when I have never asked you about the 5 pillars of Islam ? My question was about the meaning of Allah that you believed was some kind of moon god :doh

And where exactly did I speak of Islam in the first person, would you care show some posts as an example ???

Yes I have been to a mosque, that was the Omayad mosque in Damascus as a TOURIST, along with hundreds of foreign tourists to admire the architecture.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

But mr. Public has understood it all by sitting on his arse and brousing through web sites written by god knows who.

At the end of the day the data's not been refuted. You've worked in the Muslim world, no doubt enjoyed seeing new people and places on your travels. I've done my own research and we both have our own conclusions.


What is it you did out there? I've been told by more than one ex-Arab world worker that they can be fairly shielded from the worst of what life can be like for those used to greater liberties.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

How dare you speak about Islam when you ignore the fact that the 5 pillars of Islam are the base of ALL of Islam ?

Oooo, how DARE I?


Take it up with Religion Universe, I'm not interested in your catty tantrums:

Religion Universe: Islam, THE FIVE PILLARS OF ISLAM


Its Google header says that the Shia's DON'T practice it, something different to what I read last time. If anything, I'm wrong on that trivia.

The concept of the five Pillars is not used in Shia Islam . For the Shia there are five beliefs, named “Usool-ad-Deen” (Roots of religion), and there are ...

 

[Mira]

At the end of the day the data's not been refuted. You've worked in the Muslim world, no doubt enjoyed seeing new people and places on your travels. I've done my own research and we both have our own conclusions.


What is it you did out there? I've been told by more than one ex-Arab world worker that they can be fairly shielded from the worst of what life can be like for those used to greater liberties.

If your conclusion is what you have learnt by browsing hate sites, that is your problem, not mine.

What did I do out there ? I mingled with people, learned about their lives, shared their experiences, got to know them. I researched you fool, I work for the press.

 

[Mira]

Oooo, how DARE I?


Take it up with Religion Universe, I'm not interested in your catty tantrums:

Religion Universe: Islam, THE FIVE PILLARS OF ISLAM


Its Google header says that the Shia's DON'T practice it, something different to what I read last time. If anything, I'm wrong on that trivia.

The five pillars "floowed by Shiits and some Sunnis" ??????:doh

let me help you with that by posting your way, chosing haphazardly the first few links found on your darling internet.

The 5 pillars are the base of the faith of ALL of Islam poor darling.

Five Pillars of Islam

BBC - Religions - Islam: Five Pillars of Islam

The Five Pillars of Islam


Islam for Children

The Five Pillars of Islam

 

[Mira]

And guess what ? having lived most of my adult life among Muslims, never hiding the fact that I was brought up as a Christian and ended up becoming an atheist, I have survived :shock:

I haven't been beaten or raped or converted. Amazing eh ?