"Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000.."

[MyOwnDrum]

"Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000 to get through medical school"

That's what my new doctor said yesterday when I was there for my kids' sports physicals. We were discussing the healthcare reform debate.

He is a DO (Doctor of Osteopathy) and he left the only clinic in town and started up a unique one man practice, with only one secretary/receptionist type helping with appointments, which you make online. He doesn't take Medicare. A lot of forms and information are filled out online.

I left the other clinic because I felt like it was a mill and the service had gone down since the hospital district had bought them out. This doctor says that he was seeing 24 patients a day there and now he only has to see 12 patients a day to make a living. He does everything himself. Every other Saturday he offers a free clinic, first come, first serve, to the public, so he has a social conscience too.

He says he's all for some sort of national healthcare but he's convinced that whatever our government comes up with will make things worse, not better. I agree with him on that. He told me that we will all end up with something similar to Medicare and that he will go to part time and do something else on the side when that happens.

 

[KillerAngel]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

Ha, this reminds me of a conversation I had with my doctor. Told him I was about to be a teacher. He laughed and said I was a sucker because of the money.

Bastard.

 

[75Greeno]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

not true doctors work way harder put in longer hours and go to school for 8 years doctors earn every penny they make teachers are under paid but doctors are not over paid you want someone that knows what there doing to treat you you have to pay for it. it is all about quality

 

[MyOwnDrum]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

I think the solution will be the mid-level practitioners such as physician assistants and nurse practitioners. They make good livings and can have quite a bit of responsibility working under a doctor.

 

[DeeJayH]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

how much does it cost to become a doctor? and a Teacher?

 

[jamesrage]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

"Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000 to get through medical school"

That's what my new doctor said yesterday when I was there for my kids' sports physicals. We were discussing the healthcare reform debate.

He is a DO (Doctor of Osteopathy) and he left the only clinic in town and started up a unique one man practice, with only one secretary/receptionist type helping with appointments, which you make online. He doesn't take Medicare. A lot of forms and information are filled out online.

I left the other clinic because I felt like it was a mill and the service had gone down since the hospital district had bought them out. This doctor says that he was seeing 24 patients a day there and now he only has to see 12 patients a day to make a living. He does everything himself. Every other Saturday he offers a free clinic, first come, first serve, to the public, so he has a social conscience too.

He says he's all for some sort of national healthcare but he's convinced that whatever our government comes up with will make things worse, not better. I agree with him on that. He told me that we will all end up with something similar to Medicare and that he will go to part time and do something else on the side when that happens.

I think what teachers make is satisfactory.The teaching field basically requires absurd credentials and a overkill in education. Does someone who teaches elementary, math, science, or any other elementary subject or even middle school or highschool subjects really need college level courses,especially those who teach single subjects? It's basically requiring someone to attend culinary school in order to flip burgers at McDonalds or requiring someone to go to accounting school to be a cashier at a walmart, its overkill. You shouldn't need years of college to teach little timmy that 2+2 = 4 or to recite that George Washington if our first president. What doctors know is not taught in elementary, middle or high school and it takes 8 years of additional schooling and probably three to eight years of residency depending on your medical specialty.

 

[metreon]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

The fundamental economic problem with medicine in general is the fact that not only does treatment occur slowly, on a patient per patient basis, but that the results of such treatment directly affect the health and well-being of an individual. In many cases that could be a life or death matter. Most other industries are able to employ economies of scale and other labor-saving devices that can dramatically speed up production, something that may be impractical in medicine. Medicine possibly could create medical "mills", but as pointed out in the original post in this thread, that is not a desireable outcome from the standpoint of patient expectations.

Part of the problem is the patient also. Their health often hinges on their personal behavior, lifestyle, whether they follow medical recommendations and prescriptions, and so on. So productivity is also a function of patient cooperation. Take for example a new patient I met the other day, who was looking for a new doctor. An uncontrolled diabetic, he had gone off his medications for several months basically to spite his previous doctor who he didn't like because she was just "going by the numbers on the computer screen". In other words, she was treating him successfully, but because she didn't engage him much in conversation, he felt she was slighting his expectations, and therefore lost confidence in her treatment plan and simply went off meds.

It is not clear to me what degree of savings could be obtained from an "industrialization " of medicine. There are still structual economic problems beyond the patient processing problem. As widely discussed, the fact medicine is so crucial to survival if you are suitably ill, makes profiteering always a lurking problem. A recent McKinsey institute study of doctors salaries worldwide, after adjusting for currency values, as well as other issues such as subsidized medical education in some countries, showed US doctors make about one and a half times more than their peers. That result could also have been surmised from the fact US doctor salaries have also risen faster than the inflation rate for several decades. Pharma, insurance overhead, - all parts of the medical economy contribute to the cost overrun problem.

 

[OxymoronP]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

As an aspiring future teacher approve of this idea :mrgreen:

 

[KillerAngel]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

how much does it cost to become a doctor? and a Teacher?

Just finished a teaching degree, so I can answer that: first, need a BA in your content area. That's about 60K even at a state school (1500 approx per class, 40 classes). Then, you need to get a Masters for professional certification, so about another 15K.

Plus all the "re-certification" crap you need to pay for, and licensure and testing fee's, books... and, in my state, having to work for free to do your student teaching while having to pay for it..

So about 80,000 I'd say, at least. And 6-7 years of school.

 

[MyOwnDrum]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

Just finished a teaching degree, so I can answer that: first, need a BA in your content area. That's about 60K even at a state school (1500 approx per class, 40 classes). Then, you need to get a Masters for professional certification, so about another 15K.

Plus all the "re-certification" crap you need to pay for, and licensure and testing fee's, books... and, in my state, having to work for free to do your student teaching while having to pay for it..

So about 80,000 I'd say, at least. And 6-7 years of school.

That is typical of the job security plan for academia. They keep upping the academic requirements for many fields, fill it with useless fluff, and thus assure universities of more money pouring into their unhallowed halls of meaningless drivel.

 

[KillerAngel]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

That is typical of the job security plan for academia. They keep upping the academic requirements for many fields, fill it with useless fluff, and thus assure universities of more money pouring into their unhallowed halls of meaningless drivel.

Right on. Check this stat out: I am certified to teach high school history. Only 25 percent of my degree is even in history! the rest are French, math, psychology, etc etc.. And better yet, only TWO of those are in European history, the subject I am most likely to teach.

Universities love to push diversity for no good reason, and water down the curriculum. In the end, I need to buy a few good books and teach myself the material or, despite 80K and 6 years, I wont know what I need to teach a damn thing.

 

[DeeJayH]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

Just finished a teaching degree, so I can answer that: first, need a BA in your content area. That's about 60K even at a state school (1500 approx per class, 40 classes). Then, you need to get a Masters for professional certification, so about another 15K.

Plus all the "re-certification" crap you need to pay for, and licensure and testing fee's, books... and, in my state, having to work for free to do your student teaching while having to pay for it..

So about 80,000 I'd say, at least. And 6-7 years of school.

are you claiming $500/credit hour? At a state school? What UCLA?

 

[dragondad]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

The fact of the matter is that Doctor's groups lobby State governments to limit the number of medical student slots offered by State colleges. They promote scarcity to preserve their lucrative compensation.

They disguise this money grabbing as an attempt to preserve "quality" in their profession.

 

[KillerAngel]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

are you claiming $500/credit hour? At a state school? What UCLA?

Is that not a regular rate? I went to a state university in Massachusetts.. the cheapest place I could attend. Was about 1250 per 3-credit class.. toss in books, and a ton of random fee's..and yeah, about 500 per credit hour, give or take 50 bucks. What did you pay? lol

 

[Ethereal]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

The fact of the matter is that Doctor's groups lobby State governments to limit the number of medical student slots offered by State colleges. They promote scarcity to preserve their lucrative compensation.

They disguise this money grabbing as an attempt to preserve "quality" in their profession.

I'm sure you have ample evidence of this.

 

[KillerAngel]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

I'm sure you have ample evidence of this.

Actually, what he speaks of is a VERY common practice among just about every union. Even without having any details or proof of his particular claim, the general aim of keeping the qualified number of newcomers nice 'n low is a widely used and effective tool for propping up the current union membership.

 

[dragondad]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

I'm sure you have ample evidence of this.

Yes I do.

Does this sound unbelievable to you?

Or maybe you have some evidence that this is not the case?

 

[Ethereal]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

Actually, what he speaks of is a VERY common practice among just about every union. Even without having any details or proof of his particular claim, the general aim of keeping the qualified number of newcomers nice 'n low is a widely used and effective tool for propping up the current union membership.

Since when is keeping substandard or unqualified people from entering the medical profession a ploy to make more money?

Yes I do.

Does this sound unbelievable to you?

Not terribly unbelievable, but I would like some evidence nonetheless.

Or maybe you have some evidence that this is not the case?

You made the claim, therefore the onus falls upon you to prove it.

 

[dragondad]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

You made the claim, therefore the onus falls upon you to prove it.

Nah, I'm not going to do your homework. There is ample evidence online that doctors groups have taken measures to limit the number of physicians.
Research it yourself or dwell in ignorance.

 

[Ethereal]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

Nah, I'm not going to do your homework.

You made the claim, therefore the onus falls upon you to substantiate it.

There is ample evidence online that doctors groups have taken measures to limit the number of physicians.
Research it yourself or dwell in ignorance.

In other words, you cannot substantiate your claim.

 

[Alex Libman]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

I pity the fool who don't understand salary negotiation's based on supply 'n demand!


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[KillerAngel]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

Since when is keeping substandard or unqualified people from entering the medical profession a ploy to make more money?

Why do you assume that those being excluded must necessarily be substandard? Simply because they are being excluded? That does nothing to discount the possibility that such people are being excluded for other reasons, such as keeping down the number of licensed professionals in a given field so that those who are actively practicing can make more money.

First off, do you doubt that having a lower number of people in X field is almost always good for those people, whereas having a large number of people in field X is almost always bad for each individual?

 

[Ethereal]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

Why do you assume that those being excluded must necessarily be substandard? Simply because they are being excluded? That does nothing to discount the possibility that such people are being excluded for other reasons, such as keeping down the number of licensed professionals in a given field so that those who are actively practicing can make more money.

Medical schools have certain prerequisites for acceptance; these prerequisites necessarily exclude certain people. Unless you can show that:

a. the prerequisites themselves are irrational or
b. people who meet said prerequisites are being arbitrarily excluded

your claim has no basis in fact.

First off, do you doubt that having a lower number of people in X field is almost always good for those people, whereas having a large number of people in field X is almost always bad for each individual?

I simply maintain that having only those who are qualified is best; no more, no less.

I've yet to see any evidence that qualified individuals are being arbitrarily excluded from medical schools in order to artificially inflate doctors' salaries.

 

[dragondad]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

Medical schools have certain prerequisites for acceptance; these prerequisites necessarily exclude certain people. Unless you can show that:

a. the prerequisites themselves are irrational or
b. people who meet said prerequisites are being arbitrarily excluded

your claim has no basis in fact.



I simply maintain that having only those who are qualified is best; no more, no less.

I've yet to see any evidence that qualified individuals are being arbitrarily excluded from medical schools in order to artificially inflate doctors' salaries.

You completely missed the point. "Prerequisites for acceptance"???? Nobody is faulting their acceptance procedures.....they take in general the best candidates.....good for them.

The problem is there are not enough medical schools slots for student doctors. Doctors groups have encouraged a scarcity of supply via lobbying efforts.

 

[Ethereal]

Re: "Teachers should make more, doctors should make less,& it shouldn't cost $200,000

You completely missed the point. "Prerequisites for acceptance"???? Nobody is faulting their acceptance procedures.....they take in general the best candidates.....good for them.

The problem is there are not enough medical schools slots for student doctors. Doctors groups have encouraged a scarcity of supply via lobbying efforts.

Some evidence would be nice, and it's not like I'm making an irrational request either. I'm just asking you to substantiate your claim.