Taxes: Whats fair and whats not?

[scourge99]

We all pay taxes whether we like to or not: income, sales, state, capital gains, property, blah blah blah. However, certain taxes target specific groups of people yet the proceeds of these taxes aren't appropriated in a manner corresponding to the reason for taxation. For example, congress may be passing a bill to increase federal tax on cigarettes from 39 cents to $1 a pack. However, the proceeds of these taxes will go to "providing affordable health care for children of low-income families."

Personally, I do not smoke but I find this taxation extremely disturbing. Is there anything to stop congress from passing laws to tax other groups of people for things the majority find unpleasant or immoral or troublesome? A lawyer friend of mine informed me that such taxes are constitutional because they do not violate anyones "natural rights" (freedom of speech, press, etc). This seems like a loophole that is just waiting to be exploited. Thoughts?

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[Iriemon]

We all pay taxes whether we like to or not: income, sales, state, capital gains, property, blah blah blah. However, certain taxes target specific groups of people yet the proceeds of these taxes aren't appropriated in a manner corresponding to the reason for taxation. For example, congress may be passing a bill to increase federal tax on cigarettes from 39 cents to $1 a pack. However, the proceeds of these taxes will go to "providing affordable health care for children of low-income families."

Personally, I do not smoke but I find this taxation extremely disturbing. Is there anything to stop congress from passing laws to tax other groups of people for things the majority find unpleasant or immoral or troublesome? A lawyer friend of mine informed me that such taxes are constitutional because they do not violate anyones "natural rights" (freedom of speech, press, etc). This seems like a loophole that is just waiting to be exploited. Thoughts?

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Congress has a long history of manipulating tax laws for behavioral or political reasons. Things like mortgage interest exceptions, charitable contributions, IRAs, special low investment tax rates, on and on. I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand I think taxes should be greatly simplified, and most if not all exceptions deductions and loopholes eliminated. On the other hand, I can see the argument for tax (positive and negative) to modify public behavior or recoup costs associated with the activity.

 

[imprtnrd]

Somes states have no income tax. As for property tax..if the item..ie....car....house....boat are PAID IN FULL you shouldn't have to pay any property tax on it! True, the country thrives on taxes, but it would learn how to cut back like everyone else does and then maybe the federal deficet would get paid for. Some states don't even have sales taxes on groceries! Wished my state didn't!

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Somes states have no income tax. As for property tax..if the item..ie....car....house....boat are PAID IN FULL you shouldn't have to pay any property tax on it! True, the country thrives on taxes, but it would learn how to cut back like everyone else does and then maybe the federal deficet would get paid for. Some states don't even have sales taxes on groceries! Wished my state didn't!

They just end up having higher taxes in other areas. Texas does not have a state income tax or a personal property tax, but their property taxes are insane to make up for it.

 

[scourge99]

On the other hand, I can see the argument for tax (positive and negative) to modify public behavior or recoup costs associated with the activity.

I believe the problem is the government is paying for peoples behavior (when they shouldn't be) so they are forced to tax to recoup the costs. For example, smokers are (supposedly) more likely to have cancer and other health problems so the government taxes cigarettes to defray the costs of paying the medical expenses of people without health insurance. If the government didn't have to support so many people without health insurance then this would be a non-issue. However, because we are a welfare state, in some aspects, the government is forced to come up with the money from somewhere.

Moreover it is illogical to do something like tax guns and then use that tax money to pay for government medical insurance if there is no direct or significant correlation to guns and an increase in health care costs. This seems like a loophole that is being exploited.

To put this into perspective, how would you feel if the government suddenly imposed a 15% tax on Bibles and then used the money for something unrelated.:shock: As long as taxing Bibles isn't violating your "natural rights" then this is 100% possible.

 

[LaMidRighter]

Somes states have no income tax. As for property tax..if the item..ie....car....house....boat are PAID IN FULL you shouldn't have to pay any property tax on it!

I agree, I have no problem with a mortgage/lease/loan tax because of the fact that until the contract is paid in full, you do not own what you paying for, but taxing people to excercise their right to own property in full is(and should be considered legally as such) unconstitutional, the biggest slap in the face is that property taxes typically go to fund schools or other programs that are unrelated to property. I guess you can justify that while you may have children in school, but what is the return to people who don't?

True, the country thrives on taxes, but it would learn how to cut back like everyone else does and then maybe the federal deficet would get paid for.

No argument here, in fact, most people with common sense I would assume feel the same way.

 

[Vader]

They just end up having higher taxes in other areas. Texas does not have a state income tax or a personal property tax, but their property taxes are insane to make up for it.

This makes perfect sense considering the insane mentality of the governing psychos that set policy in Texas.

x:mrgreen:

 

[The Baron]

My folks bought a house back in 1981 in a nice area and worked real hard to pay it off and finally did so after about 15 years.

In the meantime the area grew up around them and became a favorite place for the well-off to live.

After the retired they were forced to put the house up for sale.

They couldn’t afford the property taxes so essentially the government would not allow them to stay in the home they purchased and owned outright.

 

[DarkWizard12]

This makes perfect sense considering the insane mentality of the governing psychos that set policy in Texas.

x:mrgreen:

Want to know what kind of politicians we have? 2 words, Ron Paul.

 

[ronpaulvoter]

In general, consumption taxes on non-essentials are the most fair.

In addition, taxes and government should be minimal. Government should do only three things:

1. Legitimate national defense--protect our country from foreign invaders, but NO empire building, policing or regulating the world, or giving out favors to other nations (foreign aid).

2. Keep our highways and roads in good repair.

3. Protect individual rights (including a justice system to protect people from the wrongful actions of other people).

 

[Bleeding Head Ken]

Want to know what kind of politicians we have? 2 words, Ron Paul.

Ron Paul is or has been involved in Texas state politics?

Here he unofficially proposes some reform in Texas: The Threat of Rising Property Taxes by Ron Paul

Of course, as a Congressman, he has no authority over the sovereign state of Texas and can merely attempt to pass on his own advice like any other citizen of that state.

 

[scourge99]

In general, consumption taxes on non-essentials are the most fair.

In addition, taxes and government should be minimal. Government should do only three things:

1. Legitimate national defense--protect our country from foreign invaders, but NO empire building, policing or regulating the world, or giving out favors to other nations (foreign aid).

Doing number 1 is one reason Hitler marched all over Europe and nearly the world. A strong defense is nothing compared to a strong offense in this day and age. Blitzkrieg warfare taught us that much. One must be proactive in world events unless you wish to be walked upon.

Though I like some of Ron Paul's ideas. His foreign policy strategy is naive.

 

[tlmorg02]

As much as I hate paying taxes and I agree there are too many, they are necessary. Many people think that the majority of tax dollars go to welfare programs, but the truth is that the majority of our tax dollars are used in the defense budget and pork barrel spending. Congress does not want to cut either because many of their districts depend on military spending for jobs, thus every time the Pentagon suggests base closings Congress goes wild. Second pork gets votes, McConnell pulled millions into Kentucky's university system and had a wing of library at UofL named after him for it. It is all about pandering to constituencies. Not that this is inheritly wrong, voters have a right to representation and all want tax dollars back in their state, but I feel the Executive Branch needs the line-item-veto and the Pentagon should have full control over base closings.

 

[Stinger]

My folks bought a house back in 1981 in a nice area and worked real hard to pay it off and finally did so after about 15 years.

In the meantime the area grew up around them and became a favorite place for the well-off to live.

After the retired they were forced to put the house up for sale.

They couldn’t afford the property taxes so essentially the government would not allow them to stay in the home they purchased and owned outright.

A LIBERAL professor at the University of Alabama once wrote a series of articles on state taxes here and even with our very low property taxes we have STILL called the property tax immoral. In essence we only RENT our property from the local government, don't pay them the tax they come and take it back.

Options that come to mind.

1. Your property tax is based on what you paid for it for life.
2. A one time sales tax on the property.
3. Taxes on properties be limited ONLY to fire and police protection cost not general fund expenses.

Whatever, bottom line is how do we prevent government from taxing you out of your property?

 

[Stinger]

As much as I hate paying taxes and I agree there are too many, they are necessary. Many people think that the majority of tax dollars go to welfare programs, but the truth is that the majority of our tax dollars are used in the defense budget and pork barrel spending.

Who on earth told you that?

 

[tlmorg02]

From what I have read the majority of the defense budget is not open to the public, that is what the government spends on weapons development, CIA, FBI, NSA,..... From New York Times pieces I have read in the past the author suggested that if the blacked-out budget dollars were figured into the publicly published percentage, then defense swells dramatically.

I will see if I can dig a few of the articles up on-line.

 

[Stinger]

From what I have read the majority of the defense budget is not open to the public,

And what you have read is pretty much wrong. But even if we DOUBLE it it STILL would not be the vast majority as you claimed. How it is divvied up in detail is not disclosed but the overall spending is known.

 

[Iriemon]

As much as I hate paying taxes and I agree there are too many, they are necessary. Many people think that the majority of tax dollars go to welfare programs, but the truth is that the majority of our tax dollars are used in the defense budget and pork barrel spending. Congress does not want to cut either because many of their districts depend on military spending for jobs, thus every time the Pentagon suggests base closings Congress goes wild. Second pork gets votes, McConnell pulled millions into Kentucky's university system and had a wing of library at UofL named after him for it. It is all about pandering to constituencies. Not that this is inheritly wrong, voters have a right to representation and all want tax dollars back in their state, but I feel the Executive Branch needs the line-item-veto and the Pentagon should have full control over base closings.

Depends on what you call welfare.

Stinger uses "mandatory spending" which includes things like SS, medicare, and other things like Veterans benefits.

Assistance to the poor, which is commonly referred to a "welfare", includes things like income assistance, medicaid, and unemployment benefits. This category of expedintures was about $380 billion last year, compared to $520 billion spend on defense (which does not count the cost of the wars).

If you call SS/medicare as "welfare" then yes that total does exceed defense spending.

You can see expenditures summarized by category in the tables here:

http://cbo.gov/budget/data/historical.pdf

 

[tlmorg02]

Thanks for the link and it appears that one, as usual, may calculate figures anyway they want. Regardless, I still feel that there is much waste in keeping unneeded bases and outdated weapons in production in order to keep jobs.

I read Chalmers Johsons "Nemesis," and he critiques the U.S. for becoming a weapons exporting state while allowing other manufacturing jobs to go abroad. His main point in this being as the global economy absorbs developing nations the markets for weapons will decrease with the chances of war. As many know Neoliberalist theory predicts that as nations develop increasing numbers of economic ties their chances of going to war decrease and a zone of peace spreads. I do not know if I really agree with all of this, but it is a very interesting premise.

 

[Stinger]

Thanks for the link and it appears that one, as usual, may calculate figures anyway they want. Regardless, I still feel that there is much waste in keeping unneeded bases and outdated weapons in production in order to keep jobs.

Which weapons are you talking about?

I read Chalmers Johsons "Nemesis," and he critiques the U.S. for becoming a weapons exporting state while allowing other manufacturing jobs to go abroad.

Ahh the "America is an imperialist evil nation" crowd. We are in fact one of the least imperialistic nations to have ever existed.

What countries have we taken over since the turn of the twenty century when we became a major foreign power?

 

[scourge99]

Depends on what you call welfare.

Stinger uses "mandatory spending" which includes things like SS, medicare, and other things like Veterans benefits.

Assistance to the poor, which is commonly referred to a "welfare", includes things like income assistance, medicaid, and unemployment benefits. This category of expedintures was about $380 billion last year, compared to $520 billion spend on defense (which does not count the cost of the wars).

If you call SS/medicare as "welfare" then yes that total does exceed defense spending.

You can see expenditures summarized by category in the tables here:

http://cbo.gov/budget/data/historical.pdf

:soap

Personally, I'm against federal SS and federal Medicare. These should be a state issues. The fed government shouldn't be giving free rides, period. This isn't and should never be a nanny/welfare nation. The government should only try to keep companies from price-gouging. If you're too stupid/lazy to invest your money (includes getting a higher education) and/or plan your retirement then I shouldn't be paying for your stupid choices.

I'm not against helping people during emergencies or tough times but that help should be minimal.

 

[Iriemon]

:soap

Personally, I'm against federal SS and federal Medicare. These should be a state issues. The fed government shouldn't be giving free rides, period. This isn't and should never be a nanny/welfare nation. The government should only try to keep companies from price-gouging. If you're too stupid/lazy to invest your money (includes getting a higher education) and/or plan your retirement then I shouldn't be paying for your stupid choices.

I'm not against helping people during emergencies or tough times but that help should be minimal.

Personally, I disagree. I like living in a society where we don't have hordes of the elderly, sick, and infirm living in boxes under freeways and begging for food at stoplights, period.

 

[scourge99]

Personally, I disagree. I like living in a society where we don't have hordes of the elderly, sick, and infirm living in boxes under freeways and begging for food at stoplights, period.

uhhh.. we do.

I guess I should expand my opinion a bit. We shouldn't be paying for things that people are CAPABLE of achieving themselves. Naturally the insane, and handicapped need extra help, but many people are just lazy or apathetic.

Though I wouldn't like living in a society with " hordes of the elderly, sick, and infirm living in boxes under freeways and begging for food at stoplights" I would despise living a society where 50% or more of my income goes to taxes to pay for these programs. Thats not freedom or liberty to me.

 

[Iriemon]

uhhh.. we do.

I guess I should expand my opinion a bit. We shouldn't be paying for things that people are CAPABLE of achieving themselves. Naturally the insane, and handicapped need extra help, but many people are just lazy or apathetic.

Though I wouldn't like living in a society with " hordes of the elderly, sick, and infirm living in boxes under freeways and begging for food at stoplights" I would despise living a society where 50% or more of my income goes to taxes to pay for these programs. Thats not freedom or liberty to me.

I don't support paying able bodied folks to do nothing either. I do support programs for basic health care and education so that kids from even the poorest families have the ability to reach their potential.

 

[tlmorg02]

The F-22 fighter and the DDX Destroyer are two good examples, not to mention the $75 million per year spent on a totally unproven ballistic missle defense system.

It is not imperialism that the U.S. is guilty of. We have supported violent guerrilla fighters throughout South America like in Ecuador and Pinochet in Chile. The U.S. and Britain supported the Shah in Iran who killed and tortured thousands. Backed Saddam in the Iraq-Iran War. Fought covert war in Laos during Vietnam. Iran-contra and Nicaragua proxy war. Not to mention the wealth of good deeds in the CIA "Family Jewels."