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Taliban: we won the war

DopeyJoeIsSenile

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Are you having trouble reading? Do you not understand that it's not a sign of good planning when there's a busload of people on a road intel said was supposed to be abandoned?
I think you are the one having trouble reading. With all due respect, which part of "The need to detain a busload of people had no bearing on the success or failure of the mission" do you not understand? An intelligence failure is an intelligence failure. Or are you attempting to claim that intelligence getting something wrong means failure no matter the outcome? Intelligence failures occur even in many successful ops. As for bad planning, the original plan was to stage the op six months earlier when the conditions were favorable. That's on Jimmy Carter.
 

Jredbaron96

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As for bad planning, the original plan was to stage the op six months earlier when the conditions were favorable.

You are completely failing to realize that the entirety of Operation Eagle Claw was based on terrible planning that the modern SOF community would never have accepted. You keep pretending that it was just the conditions that caused the failure; it was not.

Eagle Claw was a failure because it was a terrible plan. Even if the sand storm had not occurred, the entire plan was almost certainly doomed to failure. You don't know what you're talking about, which is why you keep insisting that it was only an issue of the sand storm.

To cap off a few of the problems with Eagle Claw:

1. There was a complete lack of human intelligence on the actual target area.

2. The operational plan basically admitted that the rescue team would have to wing it once they got to Tehran, because the intel was so incomplete. At the most important phase of the operation, they quite literally be making it up as they go.

3. The various different forces involved in actually carrying out the operation had never rehearsed together.

4. The actual members of the operation were not sure who was actually in charge of the operation owing to the lack of coordination. At the site Desert One this caused confusion because there wasn't anyone designated to take command of the site after landing.

5. Two the of helos had to turn back entirely based on the technical failures of their crews due to lack of training. Bluebeard 6 mistakenly assumed that a Blade Inspection Method warning light meant they were in imminent threat of crashing, because they had been trained in Marine H-53s, but the Navy's RH-53s had never had a blade failure after a BIM warning. In fact the RH-35's BIM indicator was just a caution, but Marine pilots were trained to believe it was a sign of immediate failure.

Bluebeard 5 also had to abandon the mission because the crew had accidentally blocked off a cooling unit when they were loading equipment, causing the aircraft to turn back. to make matters worse, Bluebeard 5 was carrying all the spare parts for the mission.

Honestly dude, what part of this gives you this idea that Eagle Claw was a good plan?
 

cpwill

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Why? Nothing any vet has done in the last 30-40 years has made us any safer. Their actions in the ME actually put more American lives in danger.
Poes Law in action.
 

swing_voter

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There's nothing in Afghanistan anybody wants.

Opium is their chief export last I heard.


Next down on the list is terrorism. Europe will have to deal with that. We're on the other side of the world and we've fortified our borders.



.
 

DopeyJoeIsSenile

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You are completely failing to realize that the entirety of Operation Eagle Claw was based on terrible planning that the modern SOF community would never have accepted. You keep pretending that it was just the conditions that caused the failure; it was not.

Eagle Claw was a failure because it was a terrible plan. Even if the sand storm had not occurred, the entire plan was almost certainly doomed to failure. You don't know what you're talking about, which is why you keep insisting that it was only an issue of the sand storm.

To cap off a few of the problems with Eagle Claw:

1. There was a complete lack of human intelligence on the actual target area.

2. The operational plan basically admitted that the rescue team would have to wing it once they got to Tehran, because the intel was so incomplete. At the most important phase of the operation, they quite literally be making it up as they go.

3. The various different forces involved in actually carrying out the operation had never rehearsed together.

4. The actual members of the operation were not sure who was actually in charge of the operation owing to the lack of coordination. At the site Desert One this caused confusion because there wasn't anyone designated to take command of the site after landing.

5. Two the of helos had to turn back entirely based on the technical failures of their crews due to lack of training. Bluebeard 6 mistakenly assumed that a Blade Inspection Method warning light meant they were in imminent threat of crashing, because they had been trained in Marine H-53s, but the Navy's RH-53s had never had a blade failure after a BIM warning. In fact the RH-35's BIM indicator was just a caution, but Marine pilots were trained to believe it was a sign of immediate failure.

Bluebeard 5 also had to abandon the mission because the crew had accidentally blocked off a cooling unit when they were loading equipment, causing the aircraft to turn back. to make matters worse, Bluebeard 5 was carrying all the spare parts for the mission.

Honestly dude, what part of this gives you this idea that Eagle Claw was a good plan?

You are making all kind of assumptions. I never claimed it was a good plan or a bad plan. It was a bad situation. What I have claimed is that if op had been carried out when it was ready to go, it would have had a decent chance at success. It was consequences of weather conditions that led to the mission being aborted. Unfortunately an accident during that aborting of the mission led to disaster. You are are making all of your points based on googling information. I read the book written by the man who not only organized the mission but created Delta Force. And it was your boy Jimmy Carter that approved the mission. Btw, my name is not "Dude".
 

Jredbaron96

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You are making all kind of assumptions.

None of what I stated are assumptions; those are all facts of the mission as they occurred.

What I have claimed is that if op had been carried out when it was ready to go, it would have had a decent chance at success.

Nonsense. When your plan for the most vital part of the operation is to "wing it", it's not a good plan.

And it was your boy Jimmy Carter that approved the mission.

You know what's really stupid? Even acknowledging the plan was terrible allows you to blame Carter, which is the main point you like to focus on.

It was Carter who ordered the armed forces to focus on conventional forces at the expense of special forces that led to the extremely poor planning and operational environment that resulted in Eagle Claw. Now, in fairness to Jimmy, many of the senior staff went along with it because they too didn't trust special forces; it was a common motif in the post-Vietnam era that you could later see in the Gulf War with Schwarzkopf and Powell.
 

DopeyJoeIsSenile

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None of what I stated are assumptions; those are all facts of the mission as they occurred.



Nonsense. When your plan for the most vital part of the operation is to "wing it", it's not a good plan.



You know what's really stupid? Even acknowledging the plan was terrible allows you to blame Carter, which is the main point you like to focus on.

It was Carter who ordered the armed forces to focus on conventional forces at the expense of special forces that led to the extremely poor planning and operational environment that resulted in Eagle Claw. Now, in fairness to Jimmy, many of the senior staff went along with it because they too didn't trust special forces; it was a common motif in the post-Vietnam era that you could later see in the Gulf War with Schwarzkopf and Powell.

You can banter about planning until you turn blue, however you are still failing to admit that the reason for aborting the mission was consequences of unfavorable weather that did not exist 6 months prior when it was deemed ready to go. And I do not take you as an authority on what qualifies as good or bad planning. You have just admitted that any planning faults were the responsibility of Carter and his senior staff. The only consequential fault was holding up the mission for six months and then allowing it to go ahead under very unfavorable conditions. Obviously the rescue unit was not the Navy Seals or the Green Berets, however the abortion of the mission is solely a consequence of weather.
 

Jredbaron96

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You can banter about planning until you turn blue, however you are still failing to admit that the reason for aborting the mission was consequences of unfavorable weather that did not exist 6 months prior when it was deemed ready to go. And I do not take you as an authority on what qualifies as good or bad planning.

You hav ecompletely failed to explain how any of the very real and dangerous flaws in the plan (the complete lack of coordinated training, ridiculous opsec measures, lack of intel) were somehow not a problem within the original time frame.

Obviously the rescue unit was not the Navy Seals or the Green Berets, however the abortion of the mission is solely a consequence of weather.

The idea that without the weather the mission would have succeeded is ludicrous for all the reasons I've mentioned. Your complete inability to refute any of the issues I raised with the planning of Eagle Claw demonstrates that.
 

DopeyJoeIsSenile

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You hav ecompletely failed to explain how any of the very real and dangerous flaws in the plan (the complete lack of coordinated training, ridiculous opsec measures, lack of intel) were somehow not a problem within the original time frame.



The idea that without the weather the mission would have succeeded is ludicrous for all the reasons I've mentioned. Your complete inability to refute any of the issues I raised with the planning of Eagle Claw demonstrates that.

I have refuted everything that counts. Your are attempting to suggest that due to the fact that since the mission was not comprised of a unit the level of something along the lines of Seal Team Six, that it had no chance of success whatsoever. Did you serve in the military? Like it or not, the mission failure was a consequence of unfavorable weather. Not every successful op in this nation's history has been carried out by special forces. And even special forces like the Seals have occasional failures. Ask Marcus Luttrell.
 

Jredbaron96

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I have refuted everything that counts. Your are attempting to suggest that due to the fact that since the mission was not comprised of a unit the level of something along the lines of Seal Team Six, that it had no chance of success whatsoever.

That's not my contention actually, but thank you for making it clear to everyone that reading comprehension is a struggle.

Did you serve in the military? Like it or not, the mission failure was a consequence of unfavorable weather.

I currently am. But more importantly, I am well read enough to know that Eagle Claw was a terribly made plan that the modern SOF community would never agree to, because it is a fundamentally bad plan based on horribly insufficient intel, a lack of clear leadership, and poor coordination. Two helicopters were lost not to the sandstorm, but to pilots not knowing their aircraft. There was a lack of a site commander at Desert One, which was supposed to be an unguarded rode but in fact was regularly trafficked. The fact that there was no clear expectation as to how the actual rescue would work once they got to Tehran
 

HangLow

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TheParser

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I tend to agree.

Me, too.

The Brits could not tame that country in the 19th century.

The Russians failed to tame it in the 20th century.

And the Americans have run out of patience in the 21st century.

Hope that some key Afghan allies will be flown to safety in the States.

Kabul will soon be returned to the 15th century.

Sad!

But that's life!
 

joluoto

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US sends warplanes to protect Afghan withdrawal

Probably a good call, since the Talebans are launching a major offensive against the Afghan government right now, and has said that their deal with Trump to not hurt International Troops is over, since the US failed to leave by May 1st (the date agreed by Trump and the Talebans, Biden postponed it to September 11).
 

Waddy

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Almost impossible to defeat insurgent forces on their own turf. That lesson was taught the French in Algeria and Vietnam, the British almost everywhere, and the US a few times. The problem for democracies is they won't do what is necessary to conquer an indigenous people. It requires genocide and extreme brutality. American public opinion won't accept those tactics.

But I'll tell you who is very good at that; the Chinese. They are willing to take the necessary steps with no remorse and no apology. If you're willing to execute enough people, including women and children... if you're willing to starve people..... if you're willing to enslave a population.... yes, the Chinese could conquer Afghanistan.
 

calamity

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Almost impossible to defeat insurgent forces on their own turf. That lesson was taught the French in Algeria and Vietnam, the British almost everywhere, and the US a few times. The problem for democracies is they won't do what is necessary to conquer an indigenous people. It requires genocide and extreme brutality. American public opinion won't accept those tactics.

But I'll tell you who is very good at that; the Chinese. They are willing to take the necessary steps with no remorse and no apology. If you're willing to execute enough people, including women and children... if you're willing to starve people..... if you're willing to enslave a population.... yes, the Chinese could conquer Afghanistan.
We actually did win until Bush decided to allow the Taliban to flee into Pakistan while he attacked the wrong country.
 

Waddy

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We actually did win until Bush decided to allow the Taliban to flee into Pakistan while he attacked the wrong country.
No, we didn't. Only in your dreams. We haven't won in Pakistan nor Afghanistan nor Iraq nor Iran. We're batting zero in the Middle East.
 
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