Take the Common Core 4th grade math test

[US Conservative]

I've heard the phrase, of course. It's not relevant to the current discussion, but I've heard it. What of it?

Now, do you think you could have answered the questions on the test, which was an example of the core curriculum currently being taught, when you were in the fourth grade?

Me neither, but then, that was a lot more than 23 years ago.

I didn't want to presume you were asking such a question. Could I have answered that in 4th grade? Depends on what would have been taught to me prior. If I hadn't covered the concept, perhaps not, if I had, probably.

 

[Mycroft]

I suspect they were trying to see if students could keep track of tens, hundreds, etc in different orders. Perhaps that was what they were assessing in the question.

Perhaps.

 

[Dittohead not!]

I didn't want to presume you were asking such a question. Could I have answered that in 4th grade? Depends on what would have been taught to me prior. If I hadn't covered the concept, perhaps not, if I had, probably.

If you went to school 23 years ago, I can guarantee you that most of what was in that test, along with the rest of the core curriculum, was not being taught.

 

[US Conservative]

If you went to school 23 years ago, I can guarantee you that most of what was in that test, along with the rest of the core curriculum, was not being taught.

Perhaps, but if I wasn't being taught that, why would I have been responsible for knowing it?
And why were competency rates, graduation rates, etc higher back then?

Bottom line is this needs to go somewhere-it has to produce meaningful and useful results otherwise its just glitter.

 

[Mycroft]

It really does not replace any other tools. Here are the math standards. It has everything I was taught, plus a bunch more. Mathematics Standards | Common Core State Standards Initiative

You are fundamentally correct. Common Core is really just a set of standards. The methods used to teach to those standards...at least one of them...are what a lot of people in this thread are talking about, including myself.

However, that test in the OP does deal with the calculation method that I, and others, find so cumbersome.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Perhaps, but if I wasn't being taught that, why would I have been responsible for knowing it?
And why were competency rates, graduation rates, etc higher back then?

Bottom line is this needs to go somewhere-it has to produce meaningful and useful results otherwise its just glitter.

Competency rates and graduation rates were not higher back then.
The good old days of education myth is just that, a myth.

 

[Redress]

You are fundamentally correct. Common Core is really just a set of standards. The methods used to teach to those standards...at least one of them...are what a lot of people in this thread are talking about, including myself.

However, that test in the OP does deal with the calculation method that I, and others, find so cumbersome.

The reason those methods are used to teach, which as you point out is not because of Common Core, is because they have been found to be effective. Math is a set of building blocks. You learn addition and subtraction to learn multiplication to learn division to learn algebra to learn calculus. What they are doing with these methods is laying the groundwork to later learning, and the groundwork to understanding how to find the answers to things. I find that a positive.

 

[US Conservative]

Competency rates and graduation rates were not higher back then.

The good old days of education myth is just that, a myth.

Untrue, especially when you consider that the modern numbers are distorted by factors like "earning a GED".

This paper applies a unified methodology to multiple data sets to estimate both the levels and trends in U.S. high school graduation rates. We establish that (a) the true rate is substantially lower than widely used measures; (b) it peaked in the early 1970s; (c) majority/minority differentials are substantial and have not converged for 35 years; (d) lower post-1970 rates are not solely due to increasing immigrant and minority populations; (e) our findings explain part of the slowdown in college attendance and rising college wage premiums; and (f) widening graduation differentials by gender help explain increasing male-female college attendance gaps...

Prior to the research of Cameron and Heckman [1993], it was widely believed that GED recipients were equivalent to high school graduates. Thus the growing difference in Figure I between the status completion rate that counts GED recipients as graduates, and the graduation ratio, was not a cause for concern. Their study, along with a large body of subsequent work summarized in Boesel, Alsalam and Smith [1998], showed this belief to be false. Although GED recipients have the same measured academic ability as high school graduates who do not attend college, on average, they have the economic and social outcomes of otherwise similar dropouts who do not exam certify (Heckman and LaFontaine [2006, 2009]). Despite having similar measures of cognitive ability, GED recipients perform significantly worse in most dimensions of economic and social life when compared to high school graduates. GED recipients lack non-cognitive skills such as perseverance and motivation that are essential to success in school and in life (Heckman and Rubinstein [2001]). The GED opens education and training opportunities but GED recipients do not reap the potential benefits of these options because they are unable to finish the skill enhancement programs that they start. GED recipients attrite from the military at the same rate as other dropouts and they exit post-secondary schooling with nearly the same degree attainment rates as other dropouts who start with no credential (See Laurence [2009] and Heckman and LaFontaine [2009])...

THE AMERICAN HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION RATE: TRENDS AND LEVELS

 

[Dittohead not!]

Untrue, especially when you consider that the modern numbers are distorted by factors like "earning a GED".

also by the necessity of passing a test in order to graduate, something that wasn't in place in the good old days.



According to that, graduation rates are going up for all groups.

 

[US Conservative]

also by the necessity of passing a test in order to graduate, something that wasn't in place in the good old days.

View attachment 67183498

According to that, graduation rates are going up for all groups.

Did you read what factors they put into the study? Grad rates peaked in the 70's, and have been dropping since-with GED's (counted as graduation, but really not, either in spirit or outcomes).

 

[Deuce]

Question #14 struck me as just plain dumb.

4 thousands + 3 tens + 5 hundreds is less than which number below?

4 thousands + 5 tens + 3 hundreds
8 hundreds + 3 thousands + 8 ones
4 thousands + 7 ones + 8 tens + 6 hundreds
9 hundreds + 9 tens + 2 thousands

Who in their right mind will take the time to convert 4,530, 4,350, 3,801, 4,687 and 2,990 to thousands, hundreds, tens and ones...just to order them from high to low? I mean, damn...all you have to do is LOOK at the stupid numbers!

Most complaints about "common core math" can be answered quite simply:

The actual method of solving the problem isn't always reflecting some real-world task, but rather it is aimed at developing and demonstrating particular skills.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Yes, and in some cases the Celsius temp is the decimal, and the Fahrenheit is a nice whole number but its still a bitch.

No doubt its frustrating converting building materials from standard to metric. And with so much being made overseas its probably labeled in both ways.

Even in the shooting sports (one of my hobbies) the problem shows up, with milliradians, yards, meters, inches, etc. The superior system is the metric one, especially for long ranges and with ranging formulas because less conversion must be done, but American ranges are in yards, so unless I want to bring my own (huge) target stands I have to shoot yards. There are similar issues in orienteering (I backpack).

Im a nerd, so Ive recently been calculating via (poor-mans) maneuvering board. Its a way to stay sharp, and not just with math. Plus it kind of combines my interests in history, the military, and shooting. Who does this? :lol:
This type of thing...

1. The observer sees a ship that is 5km away at bearing 30 by the rangefinder and compass. Assuming the ship is neither head-on nor in profile, how can the observer calculate speed and the direction of travel of the ship from observation? Assume no readily visible landmarks behind the ship.

2. Let’s say that the ship is at this moment 5km away at bearing 30 as observed from the forward post. What are the distance and the bearing at this moment from the battery which is 3km behind the observer?

3. Let’s say that the ship’s direction of travel is 135 degrees from the zero reference bearing (going over the observer’s right shoulder) and the speed is 20 knots (approx. 36km/h). If it took the cannon crew fifty seconds to calculate the firing solution, and the shell flight time is ten seconds, at which point relative to the cannon (distance and bearing) should the gun be aimed?

4. Assuming the ship is 100m long and the combined side and deck projection at the 30 degree angle of the shell impact is 25m, what is the probability of a first-round hit from the cannon with 1 minute of angle dispersion?

National defense and 6th grade math | VolkStudio Blog

Yeah, no problem, I can answer that question, just wait till the playoffs are over, next season.

I used to sail and race sailboats. Figuring out a location or course is on hell of a lot easier than knotical miles.

 

[Deuce]

There was no such thing as "calculators" when I was in the 4th grade. Heck, I wasn't really much interested in "critical thinking" then, either. But I already knew how to add, subtract, multiply and divide...and I could do it much faster without having to convert every number into another number first. Later on, when I was introduced to higher levels of math is when I developed my critical thinking.

It worked out pretty good for me.

The newer method is actually better. I know it doesn't seem that way to you, right now. But that's because you're an adult who a different, much more terrible way. You were taught math via a crapload of rote memorization just like I was. "Converting numbers into another number" is actually way, way faster when you're dealing with larger and more complicated numbers.

Once you've learned it.

It's too late for you and I. But your kid is gonna be better at this than you.

 

[humbolt]

Yeah, no problem, I can answer that question, just wait till the playoffs are over, next season.

I used to sail and race sailboats. Figuring out a location or course is on hell of a lot easier than knotical miles.

Ha! I did too. I sorely miss sailing, but my back prevents it these days. I sold my last boat, and I wish I could say I've never looked back, but I have and do from time to time. Especially when my back is feeling great.

 

[Mycroft]

The newer method is actually better. I know it doesn't seem that way to you, right now. But that's because you're an adult who a different, much more terrible way. You were taught math via a crapload of rote memorization just like I was. "Converting numbers into another number" is actually way, way faster when you're dealing with larger and more complicated numbers.

Once you've learned it.

It's too late for you and I. But your kid is gonna be better at this than you.

I have two sons...and no plans for having more. They are both in their early 20's. My older son always had problems with numbers and math in school, but he gets by. My younger son...while not a "lightning calculator", is damned fast. Neither of them convert numbers in their head and they certainly don't need to write things down in a column just to do a simple subtraction.

 

[Grim17]

The issue you have with common core is that it teaches kids math? Seems kinda stupid...

Huh?

Did you watch the videos?

 

[Fearandloathing]

Ha! I did too. I sorely miss sailing, but my back prevents it these days. I sold my last boat, and I wish I could say I've never looked back, but I have and do from time to time. Especially when my back is feeling great.

ever hear of a Peterson 35?

the perfect compromise [if you can have that with a boat] between racing and cruising. Hourglass hull and a trim keel with stabilizers, I could turn her on a dime with the sheets touching the water.

The back, oh God the back. Everything but driving requires the back, hauling in a wet jib in the middle of the night is really fun in a squall, winches in high winds, and you have a real workout on the abs and the back simultaneously. But even with the wet, the cold, the poor food in bad weather, like you I miss it. who would have thought eight miles an hour could be so exciting?

What I never got to crew was the "Vic-Maui" from Victoria, British Columbia to Maui flat out, in one meters.
Look up the "Southern Straits" race and the Royal Vancouver Yacht Clubs annual eastern event. From Good Friday until when ever you can make it back, usually three full days with a fast boat, four for a scow.

 

[Grim17]

I have two sons...and no plans for having more. They are both in their early 20's. My older son always had problems with numbers and math in school, but he gets by. My younger son...while not a "lightning calculator", is damned fast. Neither of them convert numbers in their head and they certainly don't need to write things down in a column just to do a simple subtraction.

View attachment 67183499

Skip to the 1:38 mark:

 

[US Conservative]

Yeah, no problem, I can answer that question, just wait till the playoffs are over, next season.

I used to sail and race sailboats. Figuring out a location or course is on hell of a lot easier than knotical miles.

Ive always wanted to get into sailing, just dont know anyone who does. For now, I will have to settle for fishing.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Skip to the 1:38 mark:

Are you kidding me?

This is not a joke?

108 steps to solve a two step division problem and get the right answer the "wrong" way and be wrong?

One of the most disgusting things I have ever come across is the arrogance of the "educators" who presume to be the only ones who have a clue on how to educate.

I loved how she made it known she had 12 years of college and is a former member of the National Honor society. reminds me of a school board meeting where a teacher member [now there's a conflict of interest] challenged a man in that fashion and made the mistake of saying something like "never having been there, you can't possibly know..."

he waited until she was done and said "no, I can't. I only taught high school to pay my way through law school."

 

[US Conservative]

Are you kidding me?

This is not a joke?

108 steps to solve a two step division problem and get the right answer the "wrong" way and be wrong?

One of the most disgusting things I have ever come across is the arrogance of the "educators" who presume to be the only ones who have a clue on how to educate.

I loved how she made it known she had 12 years of college and is a former member of the National Honor society. reminds me of a school board meeting where a teacher member [now there's a conflict of interest] challenged a man in that fashion and made the mistake of saying something like "never having been there, you can't possibly know..."

he waited until she was done and said "no, I can't. I only taught high school to pay my way through law school."

The left behaves through the education system the same way they behave elsewhere. This is how they do it.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Ive always wanted to get into sailing, just dont know anyone who does. For now, I will have to settle for fishing.

San Diego will have lots of sailors.

Hang out at or near any yacht club. One thing they all share is gregariousness. It's easy to fit in. Just don't call anything a "rope", there are none, and remember "port" and "left" have the same letters so they are the same. "Right" and "starboard" have nothing in common so they are they same.

And buy the first round unless they are English, then be in the john when the round comes and don't try to out drink Aussies unless you are Canadian and very thirsty.

Sailing's easy.

 

[polgara]

Question #14 struck me as just plain dumb.

4 thousands + 3 tens + 5 hundreds is less than which number below?

4 thousands + 5 tens + 3 hundreds
8 hundreds + 3 thousands + 8 ones
4 thousands + 7 ones + 8 tens + 6 hundreds
9 hundreds + 9 tens + 2 thousands

Who in their right mind will take the time to convert 4,530, 4,350, 3,801, 4,687 and 2,990 to thousands, hundreds, tens and ones...just to order them from high to low? I mean, damn...all you have to do is LOOK at the stupid numbers!

Greetings, Mycroft. :2wave:

Teachers don't like it, parents don't like it, and the children don't like it. What's wrong with that picture? The thing I found irritating in previous videos was the fact that a child may have come up with the correct answer - maybe because they already knew how to add and subtract by 4th grade - but if they didn't write down on paper all the steps in order, they weren't learning like a good little robot should! What's the purpose in making things more tedious and time consuming?

 

[Mach]

I've heard executives in technology companies complaining about Asians who are really good at solving math problems rapidly, but have no idea what the math is describing, or how to frame the problem another way, etc. They claim that's an edge for U.S. engineering students that they know more science, engineer, and math theory, may be slower at calculation or not know all the tricks, but that the problem solving is much more important.

I don't know, I think that's a good debate. Or was that just ignorant bias? (probably)

I think also that when I use to take standardized tests, this applied. I was often able to logically figure out an answer, but did not "know" the answer from school/studying. Both are valuable, but different. Is it better to memorize the answer to a problem and know the answer immediately or understand in general how to solve such problems but take a while to solve them? I suppose both are important.

lol common core sailing:

Hang out at or near any yacht club. One thing they all share is gregariousness. It's easy to fit in. Just don't call anything a "rope", there are none, and remember "port" and "left" have the same letters so they are the same. "Right" and "starboard" have nothing in common so they are they same. And buy the first round unless they are English, then be in the john when the round comes and don't try to out drink Aussies unless you are Canadian and very thirsty.

 

[humbolt]

ever hear of a Peterson 35?

the perfect compromise [if you can have that with a boat] between racing and cruising. Hourglass hull and a trim keel with stabilizers, I could turn her on a dime with the sheets touching the water.

I have. Great all around boat. Well built and stable, and with the right person and rig, fast.

The back, oh God the back. Everything but driving requires the back, hauling in a wet jib in the middle of the night is really fun in a squall, winches in high winds, and you have a real workout on the abs and the back simultaneously. But even with the wet, the cold, the poor food in bad weather, like you I miss it. who would have thought eight miles an hour could be so exciting?

No kidding. I have photos. I might post some if I ever get them all digitized. Most were taken with film, and I just haven't bothered. I had a Tanzer 22', then a Sabre 28', and finally a Luders 34'.

What I never got to crew was the "Vic-Maui" from Victoria, British Columbia to Maui flat out, in one meters.
Look up the "Southern Straits" race and the Royal Vancouver Yacht Clubs annual eastern event. From Good Friday until when ever you can make it back, usually three full days with a fast boat, four for a scow.

I sailed in the Chesapeake and the off-shore Atlantic. I loved every minute of it, whether racing or cruising. I'll look up the race you mention. Sounds like a fun event.