Sweeping new vaccine mandates for 100 million Americans

[LostinThought]

Huh? Smallpox vaccinations were mandatory for all Americans until 1972. We did not lose our freedoms then and we are not now.

The constitution would have to disagree with you on that one.

 

[Chomsky]

So do I. But that is not what this is about. It is about convincing people that vaccinations are the right thing to do. That sounded dumb even as I typed it but the reality is that it is true. Some now need to be blackmailed into a free life saving treatment.

Whatever the motivating factor, I can't stand for witholding one's healthcare.

 

[LostinThought]

Give me a break. This is just a vaccine that can save lives and we need 85% compliance at least to break these surges for good. IIt is not forcing someone to do anything either. They are perfectly capable of quitting their job if it is that important to them. People are refusing the vaccine for political reasons and that is not acceptable.

Yes, and that is all the justification you need to trample on peoples rights correct?
It's all for the greater good, all to keep everyone healthy and to protect lives.

So what next in your grand plan?
If not everyone gets vaccinated, you'd want to send them away. I mean it's all for the good of the people right?
Build large camps out away from population centers and send them there. That sounds like a nice fit and not at all problematic.

 

[OpportunityCost]

I suggest you learn to be honest.

I already acknowledged the initial figure cited of approximately 670,000 within a year’s time was inaccurate. I’m not disputing that.

What I am disputing is your apparently dishonest attempt to peg the annual death toll from Covid-19 at 353,000. That figure is for the 2020 calendar year and excludes the early 2021 jump in cases, deaths, and hospitalizations during the winter of 2020/2021

Approximately 560,000 Americans died within 365 days since around the time pandemic began (defined by me as the first day we had 100 deaths). That is a significantly higher figure than the approximately 353,000 figure you cited in your link in reference to the 2020 calendar year. And your refusal to acknowledge that speaks volumes.

Instead of having the intellectual integrity of saying, “Yes, you’re right it would be more accurate to say 560,000 than 353,000”, you decided to personally attack me by accusing me of arguing in bad faith, which in your mind apparently consists of making a sincere political argument supported by facts on a political discussion forum.

You don’t want to admit your error because then you will have to concede your initial accusation against Democrats in general that they are somehow inflating Covid death stats — which is another ridiculous conspiracy theory promoted by anti-vaxxers - is wrong.

Well, I’m sorry but you’re wrong, Democrats, at least the vast majority of them, have not exaggerated the death toll.

It’s perfectly fine if you don’t want to read what I write. It’s perfectly fine if you don’t want to respond. But you don’t have the right to not have people critically respond to your posts. You don’t have the right to not be contradicted. This website is called “debate politics” right? Well, why are you so afraid of debating?

LMAO, you are proving my point! Anyone that wasn't absurdly invested in being right in every single instance would have dropped it by now. Get over it, you were wrong.

 

[jaeger19]

You mean the same vaccinations that we routinely receive, even before school comes into thought?

That may be a correct assumption to make. Then again, the school wasn't forcing us to take the vaccine come hell or high water. And I doubt it had the power to fire our parents from work if they didn't take any vaccine. Not to mention the whole disregarding our constitutional rights, medical conditions, or even our religious freedoms.

Well since none of that is in the executive order..I guess we are good.

 

[jaeger19]

Yes, and that is all the justification you need to trample on peoples rights correct?
It's all for the greater good, all to keep everyone healthy and to protect lives.

So what next in your grand plan?
If not everyone gets vaccinated, you'd want to send them away. I mean it's all for the good of the people right?
Build large camps out away from population centers and send them there. That sounds like a nice fit and not at all problematic.

Well..according to your premise there can be no laws restricting or requiring anything.

 

[BahamaBob]

2 very young, healthy children...just died in Aiken, South Carolina this week...

Since you have a problem giving an honest answer, I will provide it for you. Although up to recently nearly no one in this group has been vaccinated, out of a population of 73.1 million a total of 412 people in this age bracket have died due to COVID complication. This is a total number including those with outlying conditions.

Since you have already posted that a number of 7,000 deaths due to vaccination is insignificant, how significant can a number of 412 be?

 

[OpportunityCost]

since when did anyone say it was? The Pandemic started in 2020...we are in 2021...

LOL You did.

 

[RAMOSS]

It's always a balancing act, Lovebug.

Greater Good, vs Political Will, vs Constitution.

I simply would prefer we first try a vaccine mandate with a mitigation option (mask, test, distance), before we move to straight vaccination mandate with no options.

And , the current mandate is 'vaccination or weekly testing'.

And, personally, I like Delta Airlines approch. Get jabbed or pay 200 bucks a month extra for your health insurance.\

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Individual citizens have their rights and the moment you make one exception to freely trample on them, especially against their will. Then you're already opening a door that can most likely never be closed.

We all have rights, but with those rights come corresponding obligations.

Nobody has the right to spread an infectious respiratory virus that can spread from person to person within a population at an exponential rate.

This is one of those rare instances where the coercive power of the government is useful and righteous.

This is especially true given the fact that there is very little individual cost to getting vaccinated. The vaccine is free, and has virtually no side effects. In most places in the U.S. it doesn't take more than a few minutes to get vaccinated.

This is really no different than the obligation to make sure your brakes are in working order when you drive a car, or the obligation for your children to get vaccinated before they enter the school system, or the obligation of businesses to not pollute their town's water supply.

 

[iguanaman]

Yes, and that is all the justification you need to trample on peoples rights correct?
It's all for the greater good, all to keep everyone healthy and to protect lives.

So what next in your grand plan?
If not everyone gets vaccinated, you'd want to send them away. I mean it's all for the good of the people right?
Build large camps out away from population centers and send them there. That sounds like a nice fit and not at all problematic.

Again this is a vaccine. We have all had dozens of them before. Stop acting like it is a big deal. It is not and it can save your life too.

 

[Chomsky]

And , the current mandate is 'vaccination or weekly testing'.

Actually, it's not - for federal workers & contractors.

That's my sole complaint.

And, personally, I like Delta Airlines approch. Get jabbed or pay 200 bucks a month extra for your health insurance.\

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Since you have already posted that a number of 7,000 deaths due to vaccination is insignificant, how significant can a number of 412 be?

Wait! STOP! If you're talking about the 7,439 events reported in VAERS - the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System - the CDC page you linked to earlier in this thread stated that VAERS accepts reports of any adverse event regardless of proof that it was caused by the vaccine.

Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination

Rare instances of adverse events following COVID-19 vaccinations have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

www.cdc.gov

So if you're going to be honest when engaging in a discussion about vaccine side effects please do not say "7,000 deaths due to vaccination" because that is false.

 

[iguanaman]

Since you have a problem giving an honest answer, I will provide it for you. Although up to recently nearly no one in this group has been vaccinated, out of a population of 73.1 million a total of 412 people in this age bracket have died due to COVID complication. This is a total number including those with outlying conditions.

Since you have already posted that a number of 7,000 deaths due to vaccination is insignificant, how significant can a number of 412 be?

I'm sure those 824 parents feel better now that you said it proves something. Tell them that covid does not affect children. There have not been 7000 deaths from the vaccine either. You would be hard pressed to find a dozen. There are over 1000 deaths a day in the US from NOT taking the vaccine though. Of course you will say they were all on their last legs and were going to die anyway because that is how a death cult works. The truth is they were healthy happy people and covid killed them by slowly suffocating them in the most painful and horrifying death imaginable.

 

[BahamaBob]

Wait! STOP! If you're talking about the 7,439 events reported in VAERS - the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System - the CDC page you linked to earlier in this thread stated that VAERS accepts reports of any adverse event regardless of proof that it was caused by the vaccine.

Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination

Rare instances of adverse events following COVID-19 vaccinations have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

www.cdc.gov

So if you're going to be honest when engaging in a discussion about vaccine side effects please do not say "7,000 deaths due to vaccination" because that is false.

This is no different the COVID deaths. Over 90% of them had other outlying conditions. So if you want honesty, start there.

 

[iguanaman]

This is no different the COVID deaths. Over 90% of them had other outlying conditions. So if you want honesty, start there.

Yes they were all on their last legs and nothing to see here. Dying is a good thing actually.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Yes, and that is all the justification you need to trample on peoples rights correct? It's all for the greater good, all to keep everyone healthy and to protect lives.

Yes, that's exactly the justification, this is a public health emergency, and keep in mind, what you describe as trampling on people's rights is really about inconveniencing people enough that they are annoyed into getting vaccinated with a free vaccine that has virtually no side effects. The horror!

If not everyone gets vaccinated, you'd want to send them away. I mean it's all for the good of the people right?

Build large camps out away from population centers and send them there. That sounds like a nice fit and not at all problematic.

You keep going to these crazy, ridiculous extremes. So I'll go to the extremes too.

What if the death rate due to a similarly contagious virus was 90%?

How do you think we would treat people who refused to get vaccinated with a virtually harmless vaccine if we knew their selfish behavior would result in the deaths of 9 out of 10 people they infected? And keep in mind, viruses spread in a population at an exponential rate. It's not just those 9 people that end up dying. It's all the people those 9 people infected before they died, and so on.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Agreed - to all.

But I will add this depressing thought:

A physician friend recently told me, his words,

"Covid is no longer 'pandemic' - it's 'endemic'".

That, my friend, is extremely depressing.

Oh well . . .

That is the sad reality of cold and flu viruses. Just like H1N1 is still around after 100 years it is very likely this virus will as well. Plus all the variants will continue to effect people who become immune to the covid19 original strain. The problem is they mutate adapt too fast for world wide vaccination. We will learn to live with this the same as we live with cancer and other diseases. We have accept the fact that people are going to die from disease for the foreseeable future. We may win a few battles here and there but we will never win the war.

 

[Chomsky]

That is the sad reality of cold and flu viruses. Just like H1N1 is still around after 100 years it is very likely this virus will as well. Plus all the variants will continue to effect people who become immune to the covid19 original strain. The problem is they mutate adapt too fast for world wide vaccination. We will learn to live with this the same as we live with cancer and other diseases. We have accept the fact that people are going to die from disease for the foreseeable future. We may win a few battles here and there but we will never win the war.

I just don't know the end-game, with this.

I was hoping we might not eradicate it, but could reasonably keep it at bay. But now, I'm not so sure. Unfortunately, most of us have no experiential reference to guide us forward!

 

[lurchadams]

Sweeping new vaccine mandates for 100 million Americans

President Joe Biden has announced sweeping new federal vaccine requirements affecting as many as 100 million Americans in an all-out effort to curb the surging COVID-19 delta variant.

apnews.com

--

This is indeed, as my article claims, "Sweeping new vaccine mandates"!

I tried my best to capture the salient points in my quotes, above.

Biden's orders are broad, expansive, encompassing, and bold. I've been of two-minds on mandates, but am coming around to accept some mandates - as long as there's reasonable medical, religious, or testing exceptions.

It seems the private employment mandate allows for a 'testing' option, but the federal employment/contractor mandate does not! This last (no test option), causes me great concern.

I believe those who refuse to vaccinate, but are willing to take other reasonable measures like testing, masking, and social distancing - should have the opportunity to act in good faith without being forced to put a drug in their arm. At least at this point in time. I just can't quite get over my reticence to mandate an individual being forced to drug themselves, without allowing some other reasonable alternative to those willing to act in good faith.

In addition, I fear private employers may become emboldened by the federal 'no test vaccine mandate', believing the now have license to go to that extent with their private-citizen non-government employees. We've often seen administrative policy towards federal employees soon becomes adopted by private industry. As example, employee drug testing comes to mind - something I'm dead against.

Anyway, I usually don't get so personally opinionated in my MSN OP's - but as I said, I'm torn on this subject. We need to vaccinate & better address this Covid spread. We need to rake masks, sanitation, distance, and other mitigation more seriously. All, without doubt. And, that means most of us should get vaccinated. But man, I just can't cross the boundary to say 'vaccinate without any other recourse'.

Well, it's not. It's "vaccinate or get tested weekly or quit the job". There are actually 3 choices.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

This is no different the COVID deaths. Over 90% of them had other outlying conditions. So if you want honesty, start there.

That's just not true. I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. That's not how VAERS works. That's also not how we are counting Covid-19 deaths.

Read this reference:

Causes of death and comorbidities in hospitalized patients with COVID-19 - Scientific Reports

Infection by the new corona virus strain SARS-CoV-2 and its related syndrome COVID-19 has been associated with more than two million deaths worldwide. Patients of higher age and with preexisting chronic health conditions are at an increased risk of fatal disease outcome. However, detailed...

www.nature.com

When someone dies of Covid-19 they die of one or more of the same half a dozen or so related causes.

If a Covid-19 victim experiences acute respiratory syndrome (ARS). Their lungs fill up with fluid, they can't breath, they die, we can count it as a Covid-19 death.

If someone walks into the hospital with no prior immediate history of pneumonia, and they test positive for Covid-19, and then they die of pneumonia we can count it as being attributed to Covid-19.

If someone walks into the hospital, tests positive for Covid-19, experiences acute respiratory syndrome, recovers, lingers on for a few weeks or months, but during the experience suffers from multiple organ failure -- because they could not get enough oxygen to their organs when they had ARS -- we can count it as a Covid-19 death.

If someone walks into the hospital, tests positive for Covid-19, gets a blood clot, which is very common for Covid-19 patients, we can count it as being attributed to Covid-19.

If someone walks into the hospital, tests positive for Covid-19, and experiences septic shock as a result of their body's reaction to Covid-19, we can count it as being attributed to Covid-19.

All of these causes of death are directly attributable to Covid-19.

And here is what is very important:. We see a causal relationship between the Covid-19 infection and the cause of death. We see a relationship that makes logical sense in terms of sequence and in terms of how Covid-19 harms the human body. We know what Covid-19 does now to the human body, for instance we know it causes the blood to coagulate. And we see the same causes of death repeated throughout the world again and again, all connected to place/time of the infection. There is a pattern. Covid-19 infections cause a cascade of similar reactions in the human body.

This is not going on with the VAERS system. The VAERS system is simply counting everyone who dies who just happened to be recently vaccinated. There is no attempt to figure out any sort of cause and effect relationship.

Now, an underlying condition like diabetes might make one more prone to blood clots or heart attacks or organ damage and if you get Covid-19 this will greatly increase your chances of getting a blood clot, a heart attack, or multiple organ failure, but the Covid-19 is the immediate precipitating event. And it's not like Covid-19 slightly increases your chances of dying if you have diabetes. It greatly increases your chances of dying if you have diabetes. And people are coming in, infected with Covid-19, and not leaving. In most of these cases it's not like these people are going to die of diabetes any day. In these cases, clearly, it's the Covid-19 that is causing the deaths.

 

[BahamaBob]

That's just not true. I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. That's not how VAERS works. That's also not how we are counting Covid-19 deaths.

Read this reference:

Causes of death and comorbidities in hospitalized patients with COVID-19 - Scientific Reports

Infection by the new corona virus strain SARS-CoV-2 and its related syndrome COVID-19 has been associated with more than two million deaths worldwide. Patients of higher age and with preexisting chronic health conditions are at an increased risk of fatal disease outcome. However, detailed...

www.nature.com

When someone dies of Covid-19 they die of one or more of the same half a dozen or so related causes.

If a Covid-19 victim experiences acute respiratory syndrome (ARS). Their lungs fill up with fluid, they can't breath, they die, we attribute it to Covid-19.

If someone walks into the hospital with no prior immediate history of pneumonia, and they test positive for Covid-19, and then they die of pneumonia we can count it as being attributed to Covid-19.

If someone walks into the hospital, tests positive for Covid-19, experiences acute respiratory syndrome, recovers, lingers on for a few weeks or months, but during the experience suffers from multiple organ failure -- because they could not get enough oxygen to their organs when they had ARS -- we can count it as being attributed to Covid-19.

If someone walks into the hospital, tests positive for Covid-19, gets a blood clot, which is very common for Covid-19 patients, we can count it as being attributed to Covid-19.

If someone walks into the hospital, tests positive for Covid-19, and experiences septic shock as a result of their body's reaction to Covid-19, we can count it as being attributed to Covid-19.

All of these various direct causes of death are directly attributable to Covid-19.

And here is what is very important:. We see a causal relationship between the Covid-19 infection and the cause of death. We see a relationship that makes logical sense in terms of sequence and in terms of how Covid-19 harms the human body. We know what Covid-19 does now to the human body, for instance we know it causes the blood to coagulate. And we see the same causes of death repeated throughout the world again and again, all connected to place/time of the infection.

This is not going on with the VAERS system. The VAERS system is simply counting everyone who dies who just happened to be recently vaccinated. There is no attempt to figure out any sort of cause and effect relationship.

Now, an underlying condition like diabetes might make one more prone to blood clots or heart attacks or organ damage and if you get Covid-19 this will greatly increase your chances of getting a blood clot, a heart attack, or multiple organ failure, but the Covid-19 is the immediate precipitating event.

Thanks for proving my point. Just because COVID was one of the factors it does not make it the prime cause. All of those conditions you mentioned could be the result of dozens of other conditions.

Death certificate data: COVID-19 as the underlying cause of death | The Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine

www.cebm.net

 

[MaryP]

Thanks for proving my point. Just because COVID was one of the factors it does not make it the prime cause. All of those conditions you mentioned could be the result of dozens of other conditions.

Death certificate data: COVID-19 as the underlying cause of death | The Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine

www.cebm.net

But they weren't. They were triggered by the Covid.

 

[BahamaBob]

But they weren't. They were triggered by the Covid.

No in most cases these conditions already existed and made the people too weak to resist the COVID. That is why very few healthy people die from COVID. This is clearly show by the data I posted. Showing that out of over 73 million, mostly unvaccinated young people only 412 have died from COVID related illness. This is also shown by the death certificate information. In most cases COVID is a factor, not the cause.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

I just don't know the end-game, with this.

I was hoping we might not eradicate it, but could reasonably keep it at bay. But now, I'm not so sure. Unfortunately, most of us have no experiential reference to guide us forward!

We can keep it at bay. That is not a problem at all. The problem is whether we will on not.

We build our homes at the base of volcanos, in the flood plains of rivers, on earthquake faults, right on the coast where hurricanes are most destructive and prevalent. Then we cry like babies when the inevitable happens. Point fingers at everyone but ourselves.

Our government does more harm than good. I like to fell out of my chair when Biden and company were putting doubt and fear in the minds of the people with their campaign ads about Trump rushing the vaccine and it may not be safe. I looked at my mom and said as soon as this fool is elected the first thing he will do is mandate we all get this unsafe rushed vaccine. This is how you unite the people and gain their trust with lies and deception. We can only be thankful and pray that this pandemic is only as bad as it is. With the 2 parties only focus being on their own wealth and power we are lucky things are not much worse.