Sweeping new vaccine mandates for 100 million Americans

[Callen]

C’mon you guys!

This is ridiculous, pointless, and boring.

Amen brother!

 

[Cope]

I will jump in wherever I please.

I am not minimizing the problems caused by obesity. Where did I say that?
On the other hand you are obfuscating the real issue, which is that obesity doesn’t make others sick whereas the covidiots can make others sick.
Hence there is no need for a mandate to force people to eat right but there is a clear need for a vaccine mandate to protect innocent people. THAT is the issue-and I won’t allow you to equate the two.

300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity epidemic

The government would be well served to create a mandate around that one as well as alcohol, smoking, and fast food to be honest.

 

[Ethel2]

300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity epidemic

The government would be well served to create a mandate around that one as well as alcohol, smoking, and fast food to be honest.

When obesity becomes an infectious disease that endangers others then I will agree with you.
Meanwhile Covid is already there, hence the need for the vaccine mandates.
Kill yourself if you like-but don’t threaten others in doing so.
I guess its where you draw the line with government intervention. I draw it at the point where one’s perceived rights impinge on the health and safety of others. You seem to draw it at the point where the INDIVIDUAL fails to protect HIMSELF against known danger.

 

[jaeger19]

The percentage of people who are fat because of things being there control is a tiny percentage. But way to make excuses for people doing great harm to America.

Nope.. sorry. Its not making excuses.. its just facts. Eating right sounds easy right?

Well. Eating healthy requires you to have time to cook a healthy meal.. instead of getting prepared foods.. like frozen chicken tenders.

How many households especially poor and lower middle class or even middle class.. have only one working person it it.. so the other one can be home to make breakfast, lunches and dinners?
Go into a grocery store and find the cheapest things to eat and compare it to the the most expensive.

Eating healthy costs much much more. Not just in time.. but in actual money.

But hey why worry about facts.

 

[jaeger19]

Long term it has. 300000 a year for ten years is how many.

Nope.. not like covid. Try again!!!

 

[jaeger19]

Just because obesity isn’t causing the exact same problems that Covid does does not mean it is not causing society great harm. I can’t believe I need to explain this.

Furthermore obesity is one of the leading reasons for Covid being as deadly as it is. If Americans weren’t such fat asses then the death and hospitalization rate would be much much lower

Tell me why do you think the CDC calls obesity a national epidemic.

Oh pooh.
You have been debunked... There is no comparison between Covid a contagious disease that is overrunning our hospital systems and causing the economy to crash.
And obesity.
Stop.

 

[Callen]

Stop

He won't stop as long as he is fed.

 

[Cope]

When obesity becomes an infectious disease that endangers others then I will agree with you.
Meanwhile Covid is already there, hence the need for the vaccine mandates.
Kill yourself if you like-but don’t threaten others in doing so.
I guess its where you draw the line with government intervention. I draw it at the point where one’s perceived rights impinge on the health and safety of others. You seem to draw it at the point where the INDIVIDUAL fails to protect HIMSELF against known danger.

It is indeed where you draw the line, only the line is what governmental intrusion you deem acceptable into personal decisions.
Freedom to choose is the preeminent existential right, power, gift, whatever you wish to call it.

Government limiting that right needs to be back with a lot, a LOT of good reason.

Currently, it is far from it in my eyes. I say this having gotten the vaccine some few months back. (of my own personal choice)

 

[W_Heisenberg]

The fact that people are dying due to Covid is not what is being debated here.

Whooa, whooa, whoo... Hold on! This is precisely the issue that we've been debating in our recent exchanges with each other in this thread.

You have been trying to justify your stance against vaccine mandates by saying that Covid-19 isn't really causing all these people to die, that there is really some other reason that is causing all these people to die, and/or if they do die we shouldn't care because they are fat, old, or weak and will be dying soon anyway so they can go **** themselves.

So, no, you're not being honest with yourself or with me.

But I'm glad that you've suddenly decided to change the topic of our exchanges with each other back to the main topic of the thread because it's a tacit admission that you're wrong.

So, thank you.

What is being debated is if they should mandated vaccination. The fact is that young healthy people have almost zero risk from Covid. The other fact is that vaccinated people have almost zero risk of adverse affect from Covid. The long and short of it is, if you want get vaccinated and you will be protected. Those in the low risk categories who do not vaxx are not endangering you.

On an individual level, this might make sense, and it's certainly not entirely irrational.

From the perspective of implementing public health policy, the fact remains that unvaccinated people are still endangering the lives of people who are in the high-risk groups who -- for whatever reason, be it due to stupidity, or their belief in anti-vax propaganda -- decide not to get vaccinated.

Furthermore, the fact remains the vaccine is not perfectly effective, and even if you are in a high-risk category and you are vaccinated, we can still have situations where a young, cheerful, and healthy unvaccinated person could inadvertently kill a vaccinated person because the unvaccinated person wasn't thoughtful or selfless enough to spend 30 minutes of his day to get a free vaccine that has virtually no side effects.

Forcing children to take a vaccine where the long term effect is not know when they have no risk is not intelligent.

I get it. Many unvaccinated people are SCARED -- like little cowardly bitches -- too scared to get the vaccine, they are too scared to expose themselves to some risk in order to protect their friends, their family, and their community.

The vaccine almost certainly, and beyond nearly every shadow of a doubt, doesn't have any long-term side effects. The mRNA in the vaccine cannot enter the nucleus of the cell. It's impossible for that to happen at a molecular level.

And we will certainly use this technology for a wide variety of different diseases now.

The truth is, whatever one's stance in terms of government encroachment on individual freedom, the best public health policy decision is to encourage and even coerce everyone into getting the vaccine, even children.

But I can say this. We'd be much further along in terms of having higher vaccination rates if people stopped MAKING SHIT UP like saying Covid-19 isn't really causing people to die, that they are just dying because they are fat and old.

So, at the very least, Trump supporters and Republicans should stop lying about Covid-19 and stop lying about the vaccine.

That is my TED talk for today.

 

[BahamaBob]

From the perspective of implementing public health policy, the fact remains that unvaccinated people are still endangering the lives of people who are in the high-risk groups who -- for whatever reason, be it due to stupidity, or their belief in anti-vax propaganda -- decide not to get vaccinated.

Complete BS. If someone is not responsible enough to protect themselves others are not responsible if they get infected. I have repeatedly said those who are in high risk categories need to vaccinate. My stance is that those who are not should not be forced. There is no law stating we are responsible for other people's health decisions.

I get it. Many unvaccinated people are SCARED -- like little cowardly bitches -- too scared to get the vaccine, they are too scared to expose themselves to some risk in order to protect their friends, their family, and their community.

The vaccine almost certainly, and beyond nearly every shadow of a doubt, doesn't have any long-term side effects. The mRNA in the vaccine cannot enter the nucleus of the cell. It's impossible for that to happen at a molecular level.

I have noticed you always resort of name calling when you have no argument. You don't consider thousand of dead a serious side effect? You don't consider developing Guillain-Barre syndrome a serious side effect? You don't consider myocarditis and pericarditis as serious side effects? Anyone saying their are no dangerous side effects is not informed.

The true SCARED -- like little cowardly bitches are those who are afraid to stand up to the teachers unions and the political hacks who have caused panic in the uneducated such as you.

And we will certainly use this technology for a wide variety of different diseases now.

The truth is, whatever one's stance in terms of government encroachment on individual freedom, the best public health policy decision is to encourage and even coerce everyone into getting the vaccine, even children.

So you are not capable of understanding the difference between encourage and mandate? The FDA and the CDC have not come out in favor of mandating vaccinations. Some of us believe in science. Others are political lemmings.

 

[Objective Voice]

precedence!

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)

Jacobson v. Massachusetts: A state may enact a compulsory vaccination law, since the legislature has the discretion to decide whether vaccination is the best way to prevent smallpox and protect public health. The legislature may exempt children from the law without violating the equal protection...

supreme.justia.com

Just for the record, 100% of the time someone cites Jacobson they’re wrong.

Agreed. Jacobson v Massachusetts set the precedent for state's to mandate vaccinations, not the federal government. However, I would think in a national health emergency situation the General Welfare clause of the Constitution would provide sufficient just cause at the federal level. Any legal begals know of case law that would support this view?

 

[braindrain]

Nope.. sorry. Its not making excuses.. its just facts. Eating right sounds easy right?

Well. Eating healthy requires you to have time to cook a healthy meal.. instead of getting prepared foods.. like frozen chicken tenders.

How many households especially poor and lower middle class or even middle class.. have only one working person it it.. so the other one can be home to make breakfast, lunches and dinners?
Go into a grocery store and find the cheapest things to eat and compare it to the the most expensive.

Eating healthy costs much much more. Not just in time.. but in actual money.

But hey why worry about facts.

You can make all the excuses that you want but if people care enough about their health then they can make it happen. I know plenty of people who do.
Acting like fat people are all fat because they are too busy working out to poor to eat decent food is just pathetic.

 

[braindrain]

Nope.. not like covid. Try again!!!

So not good with math then are you.

 

[braindrain]

Oh pooh.
You have been debunked... There is no comparison between Covid a contagious disease that is overrunning our hospital systems and causing the economy to crash.
And obesity.
Stop.

You haven’t debunked anything. The only thing you have shown is that you are not good at math and really don’t know much about the topic at hand. Either Covid or obesity.

Have you figured out why the CDC calls obesity an epidemic yet.

 

[Ethel2]

Complete BS. If someone is not responsible enough to protect themselves others are not responsible if they get infected. I have repeatedly said those who are in high risk categories need to vaccinate. My stance is that those who are not should not be forced. There is no law stating we are responsible for other people's health decisions.

I have noticed you always resort of name calling when you have no argument. You don't consider thousand of dead a serious side effect? You don't consider developing Guillain-Barre syndrome a serious side effect? You don't consider myocarditis and pericarditis as serious side effects? Anyone saying their are no dangerous side effects is not informed.

The true SCARED -- like little cowardly bitches are those who are afraid to stand up to the teachers unions and the political hacks who have caused panic in the uneducated such as you.

So you are not capable of understanding the difference between encourage and mandate? The FDA and the CDC have not come out in favor of mandating vaccinations. Some of us believe in science. Others are political lemmings.

Complete BS. If someone is not responsible enough to protect themselves others are not responsible if they get infected. I have repeatedly said those who are in high risk categories need to vaccinate. My stance is that those who are not should not be forced. There is no law stating we are responsible for other people's health decisions.

I have noticed you always resort of name calling when you have no argument. You don't consider thousand of dead a serious side effect? You don't consider developing Guillain-Barre syndrome a serious side effect? You don't consider myocarditis and pericarditis as serious side effects? Anyone saying their are no dangerous side effects is not informed.

The true SCARED -- like little cowardly bitches are those who are afraid to stand up to the teachers unions and the political hacks who have caused panic in the uneducated such as you.

So you are not capable of understanding the difference between encourage and mandate? The FDA and the CDC have not come out in favor of mandating vaccinations. Some of us believe in science. Others are political lemmings.

The FDA and the CDC have not come out OPPOSED to mandates either. Dr Fauci has expressed support for them since the carrot approach has not been effective enough.
And yes, someone IS responsible to protect others in certain circumstances.
*Are you responsible to NOT drive drunk?
*Are you responsible for getting your kids immunized in part to protect others?
*Are you responsible to smoke outdoors or in designated smoking areas so as not to expose others to a cancer causing agent?
*Ever seen business owners post signs that indicate that a cancer causing agent is used on the premises?

And so forth. Unvaccinated idiots ARE a danger in the workplace, and mitigating danger in the workplace falls under OSHA. Good luck trying to beat OSHA in court.

 

[Bullseye]

I can across this article last night. It's and interesting read on several issues but what I found most interesting was this graph on vaccine trust:




Notice the "over all" number 61% coincides pretty closely to the number of vaccinated people. Hmmmm.

 

[Callen]

. If someone is not responsible enough to protect themselves others are not responsible if they get infected. I have repeatedly said those who are in high risk categories need to vaccinate.

Yes, those incredibly irresponsible children! They are their own worst enemy.

 

[prometeus]

Complete BS.

Yes, what you are spreading is.

If someone is not responsible enough to protect themselves others are not responsible if they get infected.

Society is protecting itself by asking all to vaccinate and telling the ****ing morons who will not, to stay the **** out of public places. Caves are more suited for them.

There is no law stating we are responsible for other people's health decisions.

Who said there was?

 

[RAMOSS]

Unless you are in the military, a federal employee or a government contractor.

They can always get a better job someplace else.

 

[jaeger19]

You haven’t debunked anything. The only thing you have shown is that you are not good at math and really don’t know much about the topic at hand. Either Covid or obesity.

Have you figured out why the CDC calls obesity an epidemic yet.

Have you figured out why the CDC recommends vaccination for covid and supports mandates..
And why it doesn't call for mandates for obesity reduction?

 

[ClaraD]

300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity epidemic

The government would be well served to create a mandate around that one as well as alcohol, smoking, and fast food to be honest.

let me know when you can infect someone else with obesity the same as you can infect them with a virus.

 

[ClaraD]

Agreed. Jacobson v Massachusetts set the precedent for state's to mandate vaccinations, not the federal government. However, I would think in a national health emergency situation the General Welfare clause of the Constitution would provide sufficient just cause at the federal level. Any legal begals know of case law that would support this view?

Can you point out where the Supreme Court specifically excluded the Federal government from mandating vaccines? saying the state is able to do it, does not exclude the feds from doing it....remember, there are things that states and the federal government can regulate...

 

[prometeus]

Have you figured out why the CDC recommends vaccination for covid and supports mandates..
And why it doesn't call for mandates for obesity reduction?

Maybe because only people like you can catch being fat from others?

 

[trouble13]

Sweeping new vaccine mandates for 100 million Americans

President Joe Biden has announced sweeping new federal vaccine requirements affecting as many as 100 million Americans in an all-out effort to curb the surging COVID-19 delta variant.

apnews.com

--

This is indeed, as my article claims, "Sweeping new vaccine mandates"!

I tried my best to capture the salient points in my quotes, above.

Biden's orders are broad, expansive, encompassing, and bold. I've been of two-minds on mandates, but am coming around to accept some mandates - as long as there's reasonable medical, religious, or testing exceptions.

It seems the private employment mandate allows for a 'testing' option, but the federal employment/contractor mandate does not! This last (no test option), causes me great concern.

I believe those who refuse to vaccinate, but are willing to take other reasonable measures like testing, masking, and social distancing - should have the opportunity to act in good faith without being forced to put a drug in their arm. At least at this point in time. I just can't quite get over my reticence to mandate an individual being forced to drug themselves, without allowing some other reasonable alternative to those willing to act in good faith.

In addition, I fear private employers may become emboldened by the federal 'no test vaccine mandate', believing the now have license to go to that extent with their private-citizen non-government employees. We've often seen administrative policy towards federal employees soon becomes adopted by private industry. As example, employee drug testing comes to mind - something I'm dead against.

Anyway, I usually don't get so personally opinionated in my MSN OP's - but as I said, I'm torn on this subject. We need to vaccinate & better address this Covid spread. We need to rake masks, sanitation, distance, and other mitigation more seriously. All, without doubt. And, that means most of us should get vaccinated. But man, I just can't cross the boundary to say 'vaccinate without any other recourse'.

I hate to do this to you because you don't nit pick and you argue in good faith. However IMO I think the distinction is important enough to point out.

The vaccine mandate isn't for 100 million people. It applies to everyone. It is a dangerous road to head down, in my honest opinion.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Complete BS. If someone is not responsible enough to protect themselves others are not responsible if they get infected. I have repeatedly said those who are in high risk categories need to vaccinate. My stance is that those who are not should not be forced. There is no law stating we are responsible for other people's health decisions.

It’s the proper role of modern governments to mitigate risks, and this includes categories of risks that even its own citizens may not fully understand or have the necessary time or long-term foresight to adequately consider.

It has always been the job of government to do this, and ever since human civilization first began using government as a tool we also used government to mitigate risk. In the past the universe of risks the government concerned itself with was much smaller. For instance, ancient governments mostly concerned itself with mitigating against the risk of war by foreign invaders. Over time, the sphere of risks that government protected populations against expanded. We see this with the ancient practice of the community storage of grain and other foodstuffs, or with Rome’s creation of aqueducts intended to allow for a steady and stable supply of water.

In present times we see this basic role of government expanded in various ways, for example, we see it with how our government responds to natural disasters where it provides assistance to displaced citizens, and funding for ruined businesses, and in these situations the government is insuring against extreme or unimaginable risk where insurance is not available in the private market. The government also tries to guard against future disasters by supporting infrastructure improvements and doing things like mandating earthquake resistant building codes.

I understand your stance, and it’s not an irrational stance to say that it’s not the government’s job to worry about the health of its citizens or the health decisions citizens make for themselves. But keep in mind that part of the reason Trump lost was a result of his lackadaisical attitude towards the governments response to the pandemic.

Also, I think that just because the legal or political environment or status quo of a country and its government may result in a situation where a society is predisposed to refrain from mitigating against some new and previously unknown risk, that doesn’t mean that a government and its people can’t change the way it does things in this respect.

Furthermore, when you say there is no law saying the government is not responsible for peoples’ health decisions that is actually not true. The FDA, for instance, regulates medications and equipment for U.S. citizens to make sure U.S. citizens are not harmed by bad food or quack medications sold by charlatans and crooks. It actually got its start as a federal agency after the public became aware of widespread industrial practices that involved mishandling food, particularly meat, that frequently sickened people. And the Dept of Health and Human Services a long with the CDC and the NIAID is mandated by law to respond to highly infectious diseases and pandemics. And this includes the development and distribution of vaccines! So when you say there is no law stating we are not responsible for other peoples health decisions you are totally wrong.

Therefore, there are very good reasons, and indeed, there are also numerous historical precedents (childhood vaccinations), that justify, philosophically, a Covid-19 vaccine mandate.

And it is absolutely the proper job of government to protect its citizens from other citizens who are carelessly and unintentionally harming others or intentionally causing others harm. We do not think twice about locking up a drunk driver. We do not think twice about suing someone who failed to repair their vehicle’s brakes prior to a serious accident . We do not think twice about locking up a business executive who dumps toxic waste into a community’s water supply. And in this instance the only thing we are asking unvaccinated people to do is spend about 30 minutes each day on two separate days to get a free vaccine that has virtually no side effects, the net result being the saving of the lives of tens of thousands Americans, and sometimes permanent disability in tens of thousands of more.

You may not consider it your problem that other people might die of something you’ve infected them with, you may consider it your problem personally, and you may not give a shit, that old, fat, and unhealthy people are more likely to die from Covid-19 than you are, but it’s certainly our government’s job to care about our health and also do something about it.