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Surprising Jump in Tax Revenues Is Curbing Deficit

The-Technocrat said:
Yes. Cutting taxes has the potential to increase revenue, but not always; the major fact behind it is when the taxation rate is higher than the optimal level. That's really the only major case in which revenue increases when you decrease taxes. The revenue won't magically go up the more you lower taxes.

Spending is also an issue. If you want to spur the economy and raise revenue, you need to cut spending on pork and other frivolous projects, as well sa cut down on military action. All of that is very expensive and counterproductive to increasing revenue.

You also cannot confuse cause and correlation in this situation. Just because taxes go up, does not mean they are going up because of X or Y reason presented. I am reading through the rest of the thread right now, though to see.

There is some interesting information to look at. For example, according to this source [the wall street journal online]: there are some problems people are not looking into when they blindly "hoorah" in favour of taxcut plans.

Wall Street Online

Centre for Budget and Policy

1. For instance: Do Tax Cuts Pay for Themselves?. No, they don't. Other's pay for them later. According to whitehouse reports, the Treasury indicates that "Treasury long-run analyses of the effects of President Bush’s tax cuts “may ultimately” raise total national output of goods and services by 0.7%." but not everyone thinks this is going to be enough.

Incidentally, The Center for Budget Policies and Priorities comments:




Reading the fine print in government taxation programmes is a prerequisite. The government often thinks in the short-term and does what sounds good now instead of thinking later, especially with Bush at the helm of the ship of state.

This makes a clear case that these tax cuts will not result in higher revenue for the government. If that were the rationale behind the cuts, that would be a good argument. The purpose of tax cuts is not to raise revenue, but rather to let people keep more of their own money so they can make their own decisions about what to do with it, rather than have too many services "provided" to them by the government.
 
Re: Surprising Jump in Tax Revenues Is Curbing Deficit

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
He proposed nothing until he was forced to by the Republican congress ... again context matters do try and follow the conversation will you?

He never proposed a single budget with over 3% discretionary growth and he vetoed every attempt by Republicans in congress to cut taxes back in the 90s. Had the Republicans in congress had their way, the deficits of the 80s would have continued to unabated throughout the 90s. You still have the same Republican congress today as you had in the 90s, the difference is that you no longer have Clinton in the Whitehouse.

Conservative Republicans these days have this notion that you can have double digit increases in the defense budget, and somehow offset that by cutting the National Parks budget. It's like trying to offset the costs of a new bass boat by drinking slightly cheaper beer. If it were not for Moderate Republicans and Moderate Democrats in the 90s, we would have never had a balanced budget.
 
Conservative Republicans these days have this notion that you can have double digit increases in the defense budget, and somehow offset that by cutting the National Parks budget. It's like trying to offset the costs of a new bass boat by drinking slightly cheaper beer.
]

and liberal democrats think you can offset it by forcing everyone else pay for the bass boat, beer, pretzels, hotdogs, and a new ski boat to boot.

raising taxes should ALWAYS be an ABSOLUTE last resort.

I agree spending is out of controll. I do not agree that taking more of my money is the way to curb that spending.
 
The-Technocrat said:
Spending is also an issue. If you want to spur the economy and raise revenue, you need to cut spending on pork and other frivolous projects, as well sa cut down on military action. All of that is very expensive and counterproductive to increasing revenue.
And, as is the norm, nothing is mentioned about cutting spending on welfare/entitlements.

Federal welfare programs take up almost 60% of the budget. Untill you address the spending on these programs, and their unabated growth, you will never, ever have a long-term solution to deficits.
 
Clinton himself said that his tax hike was excessive:

Clinton admitted in 1995: "People in this room are still mad at me at that budget because you think I raised your taxes too much. Well, it might surprise you to know I think I raised them too much, too."

Bill Clinton promised to cut taxes while campaigning in 1992.

In 1993, Bill Clinton raised taxes by a record $241 billion over five years.

In 1994, Clinton again tried raising taxes with his nationalized health care plan.

In 1995, Bill Clinton admits he raised taxes "too much."

In 1996, Bill Clinton vetoed tax cuts.

In 1997, Clinton finally accepted tax cuts at Republican insistence.

Clinton was extremely lucky. He inherited a rising economy from Bush I and handed off a tanking economy to Bush II. And the entire time in office, he ignored the corporate scandals and the dot com hysteria that was taking place. Why? Because the false numbers inflated the economic numbers and in turn, made him look better.
 
Gill said:
Clinton himself said that his tax hike was excessive:
Clinton was extremely lucky. He inherited a rising economy from Bush I and handed off a tanking economy to Bush II. And the entire time in office, he ignored the corporate scandals and the dot com hysteria that was taking place. Why? Because the false numbers inflated the economic numbers and in turn, made him look better.

I won't dispute anything you said, but Clinton was a fiscal conservative compared to Bush. Clinton expected us to pay for our spending.
 
Hoot said:
I won't dispute anything you said, but Clinton was a fiscal conservative compared to Bush. Clinton expected us to pay for our spending.
I will repeat what many have already said in this thread: No conservative is happy with Bush's reckless spending.
 
Re: Surprising Jump in Tax Revenues Is Curbing Deficit

SouthernDemocrat said:
He never proposed a single budget with over 3% discretionary growth and he vetoed every attempt by Republicans in congress to cut taxes back in the 90s. Had the Republicans in congress had their way, the deficits of the 80s would have continued to unabated throughout the 90s. You still have the same Republican congress today as you had in the 90s, the difference is that you no longer have Clinton in the Whitehouse.

Conservative Republicans these days have this notion that you can have double digit increases in the defense budget, and somehow offset that by cutting the National Parks budget. It's like trying to offset the costs of a new bass boat by drinking slightly cheaper beer. If it were not for Moderate Republicans and Moderate Democrats in the 90s, we would have never had a balanced budget.

enh wrong if Clinton hadn't inhereted the peace dividend from Reagan and Bush 1 we wouldn't have had a balanced budget and if the Republicans hadn't shut down the Federal Government for the longest period in u.s. history we wouldn't have had a balanced budget. The main difference today is that we're once again at war with an ideology bent on world domination.
 
Re: Surprising Jump in Tax Revenues Is Curbing Deficit

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Oh ya then when did Clinton ever propose a plan for a balnced budget?

February 2, 1998
 
Goobieman said:
And, as is the norm, nothing is mentioned about cutting spending on welfare/entitlements.

Federal welfare programs take up almost 60% of the budget. Untill you address the spending on these programs, and their unabated growth, you will never, ever have a long-term solution to deficits.

Clinton and the GOP Congress proved that we could have a balanced budget without destroying entitlement programs.

We are spending 3-5 billion a week in Iraq with no fiscal oversight and no end in sight.
 
hipsterdufus said:
Clinton and the GOP Congress proved that we could have a balanced budget without destroying entitlement programs.
Because entitlement programs didnt grow 1993-2000 like they did 2001-2006, Clinton didnt have a war to fight, and Clinton didn thave a recession to deal with.

Remember that entitlment programs are not budgeted like other spending, where a set amount is allocated and then spent -- the money is just spent w/o regard for where it comes from, and it is spent w/o regard for any other budgetary concerns; it is spent because by law it must be spent.

We are spending 3-5 billion a week in Iraq with no fiscal oversight and no end in sight.
Interesting. I saw a little while ago that we have spend 315B in Iraq thru June 2006. Thats less than $2B/week.

In any event -- compare that to over $29B/week we spend on entitlements, and then tell me where the decifits come from.
 
Goobieman said:
Because entitlement programs didnt grow 1993-2000 like they did 2001-2006, Clinton didnt have a war to fight, and Clinton didn thave a recession to deal with.

Remember that entitlment programs are not budgeted like other spending, where a set amount is allocated and then spent -- the money is just spent w/o regard for where it comes from, and it is spent w/o regard for any other budgetary concerns; it is spent because by law it must be spent.


Interesting. I saw a little while ago that we have spend 315B in Iraq thru June 2006. Thats less than $2B/week.

In any event -- compare that to over $29B/week we spend on entitlements, and then tell me where the decifits come from.

The problem with your assertion is that a larger percentage of deficits in general revenue today are funded out of current surpluses in payroll taxes than was the case in the 90s.

Moreover, if you have a war to fight, then you have to fund it either way. The war in Iraq is an argument against cutting taxes, not for cutting them.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
The problem with your assertion is that a larger percentage of deficits in general revenue today are funded out of current surpluses in payroll taxes than was the case in the 90s.
Sure about that?
Seems to me that with the huge increase in entitlement spending, that surplus is getting smaller and smaller. I can look it up, I suppose.

Moreover, if you have a war to fight, then you have to fund it either way. The war in Iraq is an argument against cutting taxes, not for cutting them.
Or for cutting spending on luxuries like entitlements.
 
Goobieman said:
Sure about that?
Seems to me that with the huge increase in entitlement spending, that surplus is getting smaller and smaller. I can look it up, I suppose.


Or for cutting spending on luxuries like entitlements.

Yes, the surplus is getting smaller, but they are borrowing more against it. Surpluses in payroll taxes fund deficits in general revenue. The deficits we have ran the last few years only serve to exacerbate projected shortfalls in Social Security and Medicare once the Baby Boomers start retiring.

It's a catch 22 though, if you get rid of Social Security and Medicare, you of course would have to eliminate payroll taxes. If you do that, you only make the current deficits that much worse.

Here in America we have decided long ago that we are going to provide a safetynet for our seniors and less fortunate. We have decided as a nation that it is our moral obligation just like it was our moral obligation to end child labor and slavery. That will never change. You might as well get used to it, or find another nation that shares your views. Either way, we have to fund these obligations.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Here in America we have decided long ago that we are going to provide a safetynet for our seniors and less fortunate. We have decided as a nation that it is our moral obligation just like it was our moral obligation to end child labor and slavery. That will never change. You might as well get used to it, or find another nation that shares your views. Either way, we have to fund these obligations.
Ah - the love it or leave it argument. Nice.

Note that none of this creates an argument that entitlement spending cannot be cut.
Cutting entitlements by 15% since FY2000 would shave $1 trillion off the debt
Cutting entitlements by 20% would eliminate the deficits since FY2000
 
Goobieman said:
Ah - the love it or leave it argument. Nice.

Note that none of this creates an argument that entitlement spending cannot be cut.
Cutting entitlements by 15% since FY2000 would shave $1 trillion off the debt
Cutting entitlements by 20% would eliminate the deficits since FY2000

Lets see here, on one side you have people who say that they believe that we should have a Social Security and Medicare System, and they pay the taxes to fund those obligations through payroll taxes.

On the other side, you have people who want to spend hundreds of billions on a social experiment in Iraq, but they don't want to pay for it, instead they simply want those who do actually pay for the programs that they want to accept cuts in those programs.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Lets see here, on one side you have people who say that they believe that we should have a Social Security and Medicare System, and they pay the taxes to fund those obligations through payroll taxes.

On the other side, you have people who want to spend hundreds of billions on a social experiment in Iraq, but they don't want to pay for it, instead they simply want those who do actually pay for the programs that they want to accept cuts in those programs.

Not sure how any of this addresses what I said.

Why can't entitlement spending be cut to address fiscal issues?
 
Goobieman said:
Not sure how any of this addresses what I said.

Why can't entitlement spending be cut to address fiscal issues?

You are a all for a war, but you don't to pay for it out of your pocket, instead you want to cut entitlement spending, that is actually being paid for by those who will benefit from it. We should not pay for wars out of surpluses in payroll taxes. How is it that fair? We should pay for wars just like we have always paid for wars, out of general revenue. If you believe a war is just and necessary, then you ought to be prepared to cough up the income taxes to pay for it.

Why should retirees take a cut in Social Security and Medicare benefits, that they paid into their entire working lives, to pay for your war just so you don't have to pay anymore in income taxes?
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
You are a all for a war, but you don't to pay for it out of your pocket, instead you want to cut entitlement spending, that is actually being paid for by those who will benefit from it. We should not pay for wars out of surpluses in payroll taxes.
How is it that fair?
(bhal blah blah)
In lean times, everyone needs to tighten their belt.
Why does that NOT include people on welfare?

Why can't entitlement spending be cut to address fiscal issues?
 
Goobieman said:
In lean times, everyone needs to tighten their belt.
Why does that NOT include people on welfare?

Why can't entitlement spending be cut to address fiscal issues?

You need to get a calculator if you think that welfare spending would pay for the war in Iraq.
 
Goobieman said:
In lean times, everyone needs to tighten their belt.
Why does that NOT include people on welfare?

Why can't entitlement spending be cut to address fiscal issues?

Because the conservatives running our government don't have the guts to do it.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
You need to get a calculator if you think that welfare spending would pay for the war in Iraq.

First, you arent aswering my question.
In lean times, everyone needs to tighten their belt.
Why does that NOT include people on welfare?
Why can't entitlement spending be cut to address fiscal issues?

Second, cutting 10% off entitlement spedning would EASILY pay for the war in Iraq.

Entlitlment spending, per FY
FY2003 $961.4B (pro-rated)
FY2004 $1346.2B
FY2005 $1446.1B

10% of that total comes to $375.3B - and that doesnt include FY2006.
 
Goobieman said:
First, you arent aswering my question.
In lean times, everyone needs to tighten their belt.
Why does that NOT include people on welfare?
Why can't entitlement spending be cut to address fiscal issues?

Second, cutting 10% off entitlement spedning would EASILY pay for the war in Iraq.

Entlitlment spending, per FY
FY2003 $961.4B (pro-rated)
FY2004 $1346.2B
FY2005 $1446.1B

10% of that total comes to $375.3B - and that doesnt include FY2006.

Of that total in Entitlement spending, what percentage is the Medicare and Social Security programs, and what is out of general revenue. I would suspect that the vast majority is Medicare and Social Security. Being that those programs are paid out of Payroll Taxes, and there is a surplus in revenues from Payroll Taxes right now, why should they take a cut to finance a war that should be financed out of general revenue.
 
Goobieman said:
First, you arent aswering my question.
In lean times, everyone needs to tighten their belt.
Why does that NOT include people on welfare?
Why can't entitlement spending be cut to address fiscal issues?

Because the conservatives running our government don't have the guts to do it.


Second, cutting 10% off entitlement spedning would EASILY pay for the war in Iraq.

Entlitlment spending, per FY
FY2003 $961.4B (pro-rated)
FY2004 $1346.2B
FY2005 $1446.1B

10% of that total comes to $375.3B - and that doesnt include FY2006.

The conservatives running our government don't have the guts to do it.
 
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