SUPPORT THE TROOPS!! (bring them home)

[SKILMATIC]

Dude, opinions are abundant, everyone has one. I would get rather fatigued providing a link to every single little thing I post just to make you happy.

Your right everyone has one thats why I dont listen nor I care about oinions anymore casue they simply do not matter. What matters though is facts. And you can only base opinions and theories on factual evidence. Does this make sense? If you have no or cant provide evidenciary support or other facts to back your claim then no one will even beeive or listen to your opinion. I am just giving you advice kal-el. I am not ambushing you. I am trying to help your opinions make some noise.

 

[kal-el]

Your right everyone has one thats why I dont listen nor I care about oinions anymore casue they simply do not matter. What matters though is facts. And you can only base opinions and theories on factual evidence. Does this make sense? If you have no or cant provide evidenciary support or other facts to back your claim then no one will even beeive or listen to your opinion. I am just giving you advice kal-el. I am not ambushing you. I am trying to help your opinions make some noise.

I see what you're saying, but If I post a link, people will cry that it's not credible, and its from a left-wing site, and so on. The same could be said for the other side.

 

[SKILMATIC]

NOT IF THEIR FACTS DUDE. For example, when 9/11 happened each biased approach was the same story. Becasue it was a fact that happened. Now stuff like well there may be 100,000 civilian deaths thats all guessing and estimation which cannot and never be trusted. Until they come out with a official document of a actual death count then you cant beleive any assumption. You see the problem is that most of the people base their ideology from some source they read or see on tv. Which is wrong. I would beseech you to not listen to any biased approaches other than factual events that occured and have been documented by those who have been there. Do you at least agree there?

 

[kal-el]

NOT IF THEIR FACTS DUDE. For example, when 9/11 happened each biased approach was the same story. Becasue it was a fact that happened. Now stuff like well there may be 100,000 civilian deaths thats all guessing and estimation which cannot and never be trusted. Until they come out with a official document of a actual death count then you cant beleive any assumption. You see the problem is that most of the people base their ideology from some source they read or see on tv. Which is wrong. I would beseech you to not listen to any biased approaches other than factual events that occured and have been documented by those who have been there. Do you at least agree there?

Yes, I really take everything I read from these links with a grain of salt.I would rather come up with my own ideas, than for someone to hold my hand and give me a biased answer. For example,I was under the impression that 100,000 civilians died in Iraq, but someone provided a link, and it stated 30,000. That's 70,000 difference! I think the actual number is somewhere in between the two.

 

[SKILMATIC]

Actually ban electoral provided a link that stated 10thusand. So I think its less than 10grand due to the fact it came from a socialist paper who had a history of smearing the US.

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

That's real mature guys. Just cause you "turn a blind eye" to the facts, and fail to comment on the bulk of my posts, you just write it off as erroneous. That's real good bipartisan discourse right there!

I reported that guy for a personal attack. If people try to pull that crap just report them. Most of the time they get whacked. And if they persist they can be tossed off the forum. They waste everyones time with thier lame ad-hominem advances and it's a really lame way to further a debate to say the least.

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

Actually ban electoral provided a link that stated 10thusand. So I think its less than 10grand due to the fact it came from a socialist paper who had a history of smearing the US.

kal-el knows that's not true, because we had that same discussion last night.

Still resorting to lies, i see. Or perhaps you really think you were telling the truth? You bear much resemblance to the man you represent.

BUSTED!!! :2wave:

 

[Kelzie]

You are correct, due to courage of the men and women who protect you’re freedom, you can say what ever dumb ass thing that comes into your little mind.

[mod mode]

Please play nice.

Thanks,

Your friendly neighbourhood vegan mod,
Kelzie

[/mod mode]

 

[SKILMATIC]

kal-el knows that's not true, because we had that same discussion last night.

Still resorting to lies, i see. Or perhaps you really think you were telling the truth? You bear much resemblance to the man you represent.

BUSTED!!!

Lol, ok well youmposted the link from the washington post which stated in the 3rd paragraph that they suspected 10000. And I called you on it and you simply dodged it just like you dodged gysgt and my question.

And you talk of me telling lies :lol:

So what link was it then? Dot make me search your posts and put you to shame :lol:

 

[dragonslayer]

Hi, there.

I rented it through Netflix.com: http://www.netflix.com/

It's a good documentary, however, keep in mind that it only scratches the surface. They don't talk much about the Downing Street Memo, which currently in The House, there is a Resolution of Inquiry being supported by both republicans and democrats. Make sure you contact your representative to let them know you support the resolution. If you need more information on H.Res 375, let me know.

Uncovered: The Whole Truth About the Iraq War by Robert Greewald

Official Website: http://www.truthuncovered.com/

About the documentary:

In his documentary feature, UNCOVERED: The War on Iraq, filmmaker Robert Greenwald chronicles the Bush Administration's determined quest to invade Iraq following the events of September 11, 2001. The film deconstructs the administration's case for war through interviews with U.S intelligence and defense officials, foreign service experts, and U.N. weapons inspectors -- including a former CIA director, a former ambassador to Saudi Arabia and even President Bush's Secretary of the Army. Their analyses and conclusions are sobering, and often disturbing, regardless of one's political affiliations.

Great I willl get it from Netflix or buy it . thanks a lot.

 

[gdalton]

Why don't you and SKLIMATIC return to Iraq, since you love guns and ammo so much? I mean, you really do not seem all too suited for civilian life.

I’m sorry I get a little worked up when people start to bad mouth soldiers. Some people don’t seem to understand that the rights they take for granted are theirs because of the sacrifice of many men and women in uniform. You can badmouth the country, you can badmouth the president, you can badmouth all politicians but leave the soldiers alone, they do their job and if we didn’t have them you would not have the right to armchair quarter back everything you think you’re an expert on.

My father fought in WWII in Okinawa, for your freedom. My uncle was in the Korean War as a consciences objector, he spent his time on the front lines without a weapon running onto the fields while people where shooting at him so he could save lives. My brother just returned from Iraq, he was a srgt. he led his men into many combat missions and in his spare time he volunteered to guard convoy’s of incoming aid for the local civilians. Soldiers don’t just run around shooting people they also do a lot of humanitarian related missions to help support people who are in need.

If you have a problem with the war that is fine, I won’t argue about believing in peace, but it’s the soldiers who have made it possible for you to enjoy the freedom of speaking out for peace. There is no country on this planet that has not been through a war, good or bad, and this trend is not going to end any time soon. We need our soldiers to protect our country or we will not have a country to protect. So speak you’re mind about the pres, the country, foreign policy or what have you but do not malign our men and women in uniform, they are some of the finest America has to offer.

[mod mode]

Please play nice.

Thanks,

Your friendly neighbourhood vegan mod,
Kelzie

[/mod mode]

I did get out of hand by personally attacking ban and kal and I apologize for hurting their feelings, I will put them on my Christmas card list if that will make it better.:2wave:

 

[kal-el]

I’m sorry I get a little worked up when people start to bad mouth soldiers. Some people don’t seem to understand that the rights they take for granted are theirs because of the sacrifice of many men and women in uniform. You can badmouth the country, you can badmouth the president, you can badmouth all politicians but leave the soldiers alone, they do their job and if we didn’t have them you would not have the right to armchair quarter back everything you think you’re an expert on.

My father fought in WWII in Okinawa, for your freedom. My uncle was in the Korean War as a consciences objector, he spent his time on the front lines without a weapon running onto the fields while people where shooting at him so he could save lives. My brother just returned from Iraq, he was a srgt. he led his men into many combat missions and in his spare time he volunteered to guard convoy’s of incoming aid for the local civilians. Soldiers don’t just run around shooting people they also do a lot of humanitarian related missions to help support people who are in need.

If you have a problem with the war that is fine, I won’t argue about believing in peace, but it’s the soldiers who have made it possible for you to enjoy the freedom of speaking out for peace. There is no country on this planet that has not been through a war, good or bad, and this trend is not going to end any time soon. We need our soldiers to protect our country or we will not have a country to protect. So speak you’re mind about the pres, the country, foreign policy or what have you but do not malign our men and women in uniform, they are some of the finest America has to offer.



I did get out of hand by personally attacking ban and kal and I apologize for hurting their feelings, I will put them on my Christmas card list if that will make it better.:2wave:

Nobody's badmouthing the soliders.Just our Commander-in -chief. Our soliders are doing a commendable and brave job, They are just being used based on lies. And my Grandfather fought in Korea. I Seen many pictures of him on top of army tanks and such. But our soliders do not deserve to be used like this. They are being used as killing machines, doing the dirty work while W sits benevolently in the Oval Office like the hypocrite he is. Why don't his daughters inlist? No,he wants our sons and daughters of the working class to go, and this is exactly who he is taking money from to give to his millionaire buddies. Again, he didn't even have the decency to attend 1 fallen solider's funeral. But he can attend Renquist's?

 

[gdalton]

Nobody's badmouthing the soliders.Just our Commander-in -chief. Our soliders are doing a commendable and brave job, They are just being used based on lies. And my Grandfather fought in Korea. I Seen many pictures of him on top of army tanks and such. But our soliders do not deserve to be used like this. They are being used as killing machines, doing the dirty work while W sits benevolently in the Oval Office like the hypocrite he is. Why don't his daughters inlist? No,he wants our sons and daughters of the working class to go, and this is exactly who he is taking money from to give to his millionaire buddies. Again, he didn't even have the decency to attend 1 fallen solider's funeral. But he can attend Renquist's?

Fair enough, I invite you to take a look at one of my threads
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=2703
this will outline some of my arguments.

 

[kal-el]

Fair enough, I invite you to take a look at one of my threads
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=2703
this will outline some of my arguments.

Gdalton, from what I've briefly read, we basically feel the same way, so why are we debating this?

 

[gdalton]

Did you not just say "They are just being used based on lies"?
That link was my argument regarding these so called lies.

I'm not trying to sound hostile, I just want to show the research I have done about the war and the lead up to it, and from the conclusions that I have made (these are only my opinions) I believe we need to keep our troops in Iraq until we have finished.

 

[kal-el]

Did you not just say "They are just being used based on lies"?
That link was my argument regarding these so called lies.

I'm not trying to sound hostile, I just want to show the research I have done about the war and the lead up to it, and from the conclusions that I have made (these are only my opinions) I believe we need to keep our troops in Iraq until we have finished.

Yes, they are indeed being used based on lies and without the support of much of the world, while benefitting a select few.

I totally disagree with that last satement. I think we should pull out ASAP. Why do we have to kill even more civilians? To say that we were right in the first place? As I said before, it takes more intellect not to invade Iraq in the first place. All of Bush's arguments for invading Iraq apllied to other countries as well. Nuclear weapons and terrorist support? Try Pakistan- the most likely current homeof Bin Laden and homeof al-Qeada. Brutally repressive regimes that supportIslamic terrorism? Try W's buddies the Suadi's. Violations of UN resolutions? Almost every country disregards the UN, it's almost laughable. So you see, George Bush wanted to activate war prior to becoming President, he was just waiting for a grave tragedy to happen.(9/11)

 

[gdalton]

Yes, they are indeed being used based on lies and without the support of much of the world, while benefitting a select few.

Again, anyone can see my arguments against this line of thought by following the link I provided earlier.

So you see, George Bush wanted to activate war prior to becoming President, he was just waiting for a grave tragedy to happen.(9/11)

What FACTS led you to this conclusion?

 

[cnredd]

Yes, they are indeed being used based on lies and without the support of much of the world, while benefitting a select few.

I totally disagree with that last satement. I think we should pull out ASAP. Why do we have to kill even more civilians? To say that we were right in the first place? As I said before, it takes more intellect not to invade Iraq in the first place. All of Bush's arguments for invading Iraq apllied to other countries as well. Nuclear weapons and terrorist support? Try Pakistan- the most likely current homeof Bin Laden and homeof al-Qeada. Brutally repressive regimes that supportIslamic terrorism? Try W's buddies the Suadi's. Violations of UN resolutions? Almost every country disregards the UN, it's almost laughable. So you see, George Bush wanted to activate war prior to becoming President, he was just waiting for a grave tragedy to happen.(9/11)

Here's the problem with this statement...YOU say we should go to country "A" since we went to Iraq...the person next to you says we should go to country "B" because we went to Iraq....and so on...and so on...

So out of 50 people's opinion, we may get 10 or 20 legitamate places...all sound very reasonable....wanna know the problem?...

You don't have a little piece of paper called the Constitution that backs up your decisions...Last time I checked, there IS someone who does....

So I'll let HIM decide...

 

[Mixed View]

the only reason people don't support it is because of your stupid liberal bias media saying it's another vietnam and that we are loosing. If you military hating liberals just shut up and let the perfessionals do their job then this war we be over faster and we will set up a freaking democracy! Yah BABY YA!

 

[cnredd]

the only reason people don't support it is because of your stupid liberal bias media saying it's another vietnam and that we are loosing. If you military hating liberals just shut up and let the perfessionals do their job then this war we be over faster and we will set up a freaking democracy! Yah BABY YA!

I agree, but without the harshness....

It's really tough for some people to understand that troops overseas are overwhelmingly disturbed by the critics of what they are doing...

"What you're doing is wrong because I hate your boss!"

That's not a really good motivator...

 

[kal-el]

Again, anyone can see my arguments against this line of thought by following the link I provided earlier.

You say it was faulty intelligence? Why then does ole Georgie oppose any investigation into "intelligence failures?" He said hearings on intelligence would divert attention from the war on terrorism, unnecessarily embaress government officials, and compromise national security. I think it is because he knows that an investigation will provide a road map to how he****ed up.

What FACTS led you to this conclusion?

Please, we all pretty much now that Saddam plotted to kill George's dad. I think that's enough encoragement for this power-hungry warmonger. Not to mention, as Governor, Bush convicted a hell of alot of people. He was indeed the deadliest Governor in US history.

Originally posted by cnredd
So I'll let HIM decide...

Who? George Bush? That's why there is checks and balances my friend, so we don't give supreme power to one sole branch of government.

 

[cnredd]

Who? George Bush? That's why there is checks and balances my friend, so we don't give supreme power to one sole branch of government.

Yup...Here's the "checks and balances" right here...the power was GIVEN to him through through "House Resolution 114" in October, 2002...

H.J.RES.114
Title: To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:HJ00114:

I don't know what "thomas.gov" is, but it was where they linked me to from here...

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_menu_107_2.htm

I'm going to assume that the Senate's own website is a credible enough source for you...

See the word "authorize"?...Congress AUTHORIZED the President...that's one branch overseeing another branch...IE; checks and balances...

Don't worry....the term "my friend" still applies.:2wave:

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

As, Simon W. Moon pointed out in another thread, the argument is about what Congress authorized. The resolution demanded that Bush meet certain criteria before going to War. He didn't meet those criteria.

 

[kal-el]

Yea, Congress has to declare war before it is legal. Authorization and Declaration are two very closely linked things, but at the same time, especially in this case,very different. Please, with all the panic after 9/11, Congress bent over backwards for Bush, as it rushed it through without looking at the Patriot Act, also it was quick to authorize war with Iraq because it didn't want to look unpatriotic, or other such nonsense. Anyone who publicly critics Bush, he repeates in parrot fashion that they are "unpatriotic."

 

[cnredd]

Yea, Congress has to declare war before it is legal. Authorization and Declaration are two very closely linked things, but at the same time, especially in this case,very different. Please, with all the panic after 9/11, Congress bent over backwards for Bush, as it rushed it through without looking at the Patriot Act, also it was quick to authorize war with Iraq because it didn't want to look unpatriotic, or other such nonsense. Anyone who publicly critics Bush, he repeates in parrot fashion that they are "unpatriotic."

Uhhhh...No...they don't...no "Declaration of War" is needed...There was none for Grenada, Vietnam, Korea..and you're gonna LOVE this...

There was no "Declaration of War" for Afghanistan OR the first Gulf War...

You know about Gulf War I?...the same war that you just admitted you were FOR in another thread?

NO...DECLARATION...OF....WAR....none....zip....zero....nada....Just the same old authorization given for the Second Iraq War....No rush to judgement...Congess has gone that route for years...nothing new to see here folks...move along!...