STOP spaying

[SheWolf]

I know I'm over the top, but I value all life.

Chicago has a cool organization called PAWS. PAWS - About -- It's a no-kill shelter. Very well run, supported by donations. They spay/neuter cats for $19. Wow. We've trapped three strays and had them neutered. They clip their ears so others who are cat friendly know they're neutered. Two became somewhat tame despite being trapped in a live trap and scared to death. They come in on the coldest nights. Skittle under the bed and go out in the mornings when it's warmer. When we took them to have them neutered, one a female, the shelter told us if she was pregnant, the litter would be detroyed. Must admit it gave me pause, but it was the only right thing to do. (She wasn't. I was glad.)

I think every living thing deserves to live. I carry spiders outside after trapping them in a drinking glass. (Yeah, I know. Nutz.)

Last two dogs I've had (German Shepards) have been show dogs whose breeders didn't want them anymore. Next one will be the same. I wouldn't buy a puppy from a pet store for all the tea in china. I feel sorry for them. Really I do. But I just can't support that trade. It's plain wrong. So many dogs who need homes. Can't support bringing more into the world...

I care a lot about animals too.. I have saved a few strays and once called animal control on some people for starving their dog. Very sad. And thats nice that your community has a place that will spay/neuter for so cheap. My community needs a place like that.. I can't take adopt anymore animals, so the last time I found a stray I called the shelter.. but they are all full and low on funds.

 

[mac]

I agree... It is awfully funny how many pro lifers here don't even value human life at the moment of conception, or if the female was raped. Why do her feelings about the sex (rape) that occurred affect the value they place on the life.. IDK .. crazy

Straw man, I've said repeatedly that the child is innocent of the conditions of his or her conception and that I'd hope the mother would understand that. However due to the circumstances of the situation I understand how abortion in this case could be considered self defense.

 

[The Uncola]

I'm a spay/neuter fanatic. Try working or volunteering in animal shelters for a while. Millions of dogs/cats are euthanized every year simply because there are not enough homes.
Unlike PETA, I don't want to spay and neuter animals out of existance, However, I want to spay and neuter until all are wanted and can find loving homes.
I's awful to see perfectly healthy and sweet animals put to death for lack of a home.
So please, adopt from a shelter, spay and neuter and don't add to the overpopulation problem.

I was with you until you added the garbage about PETA. Is there any line of bull**** you won't buy?

 

[Ikari]

Humans are just another kind of animal. People have gotten this fantasy that we are some how special.

We are special. No other species has the level of intelligence and extelligence that humans have. In the relatively short time we've been on this planet, we have been more successful than any other species. We understand many things impossible for the rest of the animal world to understand such as abstract ideas. We are cognizant and sentient beings. While genomes may be close, they are different enough to produce radically different states of being. No species has the power that humanity possesses. Dogs and cats are radically different in terms of ability and worth from human beings.

 

[SheWolf]

Straw man, I've said repeatedly that the child is innocent of the conditions of his or her conception and that I'd hope the mother would understand that. However due to the circumstances of the situation I understand how abortion in this case could be considered self defense.

Do you support abortifacients/hormonal birth control?

I am pretty sure you do...

YouTube - How "The Pill" works as an Abortifacient

And how is aborting a rape pregnancy anymore self defense than aborting a non rape pregnancy? If it isn't threatening your life, then how is that self defense? Illegal abortion is deadlier and a threat to more lives, as it has be proved to not affect the amount of abortions sought by females. That is why Mexico finally legalized abortion in their capital.. too many women dying from botched, illegal abortion.

 

[digsbe]

I agree... It is awfully funny how many pro lifers here don't even value human life at the moment of conception, or if the female was raped. Why do her feelings about the sex (rape) that occurred affect the value they place on the life.. IDK .. crazy

Yeah, and how pro-choice people believe an individual has the right to determine the value, and merit of an innocent life simply based on emotional philosophies and rationalizations of the obvious death of a human being.

In rape... Two wrongs don't make a right. Rape is wrong, and killing an innocent human that was conceived through rape doesn't make it right.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

We could be killing a unborn puppy.

We dont test to see if dogs are pregnant. there could be a unborn life inside.

We could make it a crime to kill a unborn dog its animal abuse.

Also lets carry all stem cells to term!!

We could start aid stations in the Congo that make shear theres no abortions there.

If you take your dog in to be spayed and she's pregnant they'll advise you.
if you want - they will abort the puppies.

Happens all the time. Animal abortions are extremely common and considered humane when the owner (or would-be owner) can't care for a litter.

 

[SheWolf]

Yeah, and how pro-choice people believe an individual has the right to determine the value, and merit of an innocent life simply based on emotional philosophies and rationalizations of the obvious death of a human being.

In rape... Two wrongs don't make a right. Rape is wrong, and killing an innocent human that was conceived through rape doesn't make it right.

At least your not a hypocrite

And I value human life and bodily sovereignty equally among the born and unborn

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Yeah, and how pro-choice people believe an individual has the right to determine the value, and merit of an innocent life simply based on emotional philosophies and rationalizations of the obvious death of a human being.

In rape... Two wrongs don't make a right. Rape is wrong, and killing an innocent human that was conceived through rape doesn't make it right.

Rape is an act of control.
If you carry a child who is only there because of that need for control then many women feel they are being controlled during pregnancy, every time they look in the mirror, every time they gain weight, go to the Dr, all those baby checkup things. They will continue to feel controlled if they were to keep that child.

Rape can be an extremely traumatizing act which the victim suffers for psychologically and emotionally.
Women are only human.
When a pregnant woman suffers that way - her Slug will suffer endlessly, too. That is just the fact of it. That Slug's health will be in danger the entire time - if a woman doesn't *want* that Slug then she's far less likely to care for herself/the slug properly - during and after.

It is a rare and unique person who can FORGIVE, choose to keep the child, and even raise it for their own, with unwaivering love.

I know I wouldn't be able to do that - having my own children who were between me and my husband who I love and adore completely was hard enough. That "mommy Love" didn't happen naturally for me just *because* I was pregnant. That bond happened *after* they were born.

It took A LOT for me to care for my kids before they were born - after they were born I had absolutely NO problem. But before? The only reason why we all made it through each pregnancy in one piece was because my husband was *the* solid, possitive and happy one about it.

If my husban was removed (say, when he was deployed during my last pregnancy - and was killed) I would NOT have been able to make it through it.

Emotional Trauma is one hell of a difficult things to deal with and recover from.

I think it's horrid that you'd demand and expect someone to suffer through that. Must be nice to be on the outside and have no clue what it's like.

 

[digsbe]

Rape is an act of control.
If you carry a child who is only there because of that need for control then many women feel they are being controlled during pregnancy, every time they look in the mirror, every time they gain weight, go to the Dr, all those baby checkup things. They will continue to feel controlled if they were to keep that child.

This still does not merit murder. I could make the same argument saying a woman will feel guilty for abortion every time she looks at her living children and realizes one of them is dead by her own hands.

Rape can be an extremely traumatizing act which the victim suffers for psychologically and emotionally.
Women are only human.
When a pregnant woman suffers that way - her Slug will suffer endlessly, too. That is just the fact of it. That Slug's health will be in danger the entire time - if a woman doesn't *want* that Slug then she's far less likely to care for herself/the slug properly - during and after.

And abortion can be an extremely traumatizing act. When she has children who is to say when she looks at them she won't feel guilty for killing an unborn one? My belief is that abortion is murder, and although rape is wrong, it does not justify murder.

It is a rare and unique person who can FORGIVE, choose to keep the child, and even raise it for their own, with unwaivering love.

She can put it up for adoption if she needs too. Again, it doesn't justify murdering an unborn child that couldn't control it's method/circumstances of conception. The baby is innocent.

I know I wouldn't be able to do that - having my own children who were between me and my husband who I love and adore completely was hard enough. That "mommy Love" didn't happen naturally for me just *because* I was pregnant. That bond happened *after* they were born.

It took A LOT for me to care for my kids before they were born - after they were born I had absolutely NO problem. But before? The only reason why we all made it through each pregnancy in one piece was because my husband was *the* solid, possitive and happy one about it.

If my husban was removed (say, when he was deployed during my last pregnancy - and was killed) I would NOT have been able to make it through it.

Emotional Trauma is one hell of a difficult things to deal with and recover from.

I think it's horrid that you'd demand and expect someone to suffer through that. Must be nice to be on the outside and have no clue what it's like.

I think it's horrid that people believe a woman has a right to murder a human being because she is suffering. Appeals to emotion mean nothing, I could easily say she will regret her decision every time she looks at a baby or her own children. Abortion is murder, and two wrongs don't make a right. A woman who murders her baby conceived through rape commits a greater atrocity than the rapist.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

So, digsbe.

Perhaps, don't you think, that the woman who is pregnant because of a rape should determine her course of action - and decide what is right/wrong to her, her family, her situation - rather than leaving it up to you - someone who is outside that particular situation? Instead of you imposing on her how *you* feel that *she* should feel?

You can't help your *feelings* and *thoughts* on situations, can you? You can't control what you truly believe in (as is obvious by our abortion-discussions). Well, that's the same thing that applies to issues of abortion when it comes to rape - people cannot help how their minds and bodies react. You can try, but if someone doesn't want it - they can't stop that feeling and thought process.

Pregnancy doesn't *just* result in the life of another being - it can result in lifelong physical ailments for the mother whether she keeps the baby or not. It's rare for a woman to bounce back after a pregnancy to her pre-pregnancy self free and clear of problems. . . the longer your pregnant the more problems one is likely to have. Why should a woman risk physical ailments for the REST of her life because of someone else control and impulse action?

It's just as disrespectful to the woman and her health to require she carry her unwanted child as it is to be the one who raped her to begin with, in my opinion. What she *should* do certainly is *her* choice and not yours.

I prefer to respect other people and trust that they will try to make the most wise decision when it comes to certain situations - and seriously consider the implications. If a mother thinks it over and decides she does *not* want to abortion - then that's her choice.

But, of course, in the case of rape someone's lack of care and concern for others is why a being is in existence - and their fate in question. . . Now isn't that a fickle pickle? Why is the man's compelling desire for control more important than a woman's compelling desire for freedom from that control?
Just because another being is entered into the situation doesn't somehow excuse his actions - nor should it imprison a woman in a situation which she didn't commit to. I think you're placing a new, undeveloped life far above things that are actually more important.

If you're going to say "you must carry this child . . . but you don't have to keep it" don't you, also, have concern for the child's wellbeing?
The child's health?
The child's development?

I do.

I do not see an emotionally troubled woman who didn't want to be pregnant as the ideal person to carry a child. FActually and technically, as well as statistically, a woman who does not *want* to be pregnant is considerably more likely to not care for herself *or* properly care for the unborn - whether she's going to abort or not.

If this were the issue and we had NO exceptions for abortion then we'd have a HUGE increase in the number of abandoned, self aborted, partially and failed aborted, neglected, deformed, and otherwise abused and unwanted children.

You're assuming that all people are perfect, that all people are capable of caring for a being they don't love or want, and that all people are going to do the *right thing*

If people were *capable* of putting their emotions aside and doing the logical or right thing (or what you see as being logical or right) then we wouldn't even have this situation of rape-pregnancy to begin with.

You're also falsely assuming that for every unwanted and up-for-adoption child there's a ready and capable family who is wanting to adopt - and their isn't.
Nor is there a huge number of people who want to adopt a child who's physically deformed, disabled, imperfect or otherwise "not-normal" - if you look at the statistics the number of children in this category would go *up* - and so would the # of unwanted children who are not matched with a tolerant and wanting family.

The world is not perfect. People are not perfect. If people were perfect and the world was perfect your notions would be more reasonable.

It's also interesting to see you accusing my argument of being emotional - when it's not, it's based on hard core human-nature facts that are indisputable. Yet your opinion is pure emotion: "It's wrong to kill babies"

If you were truly trying to be unemotional about it - you wouldn't care at all.

 

[Barbbtx]

I was with you until you added the garbage about PETA. Is there any line of bull**** you won't buy?

I know these are old quotes, but she has never retracted any of them.

INGRID NEWKIRK, President and Founder, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA):



"In the end, I think it would be lovely if we stopped this whole notion of pets altogether." Ingrid Newkirk PeTA (Newsday, Feb. 21, 1988)



"I don't use the word 'pet.' I think it's speciest language. I prefer 'companion animal.' We would no longer allow... pet shops... Eventually companion animals would be phased out." Ingrid Newkirk PeTA (Harper's Magazine, Aug. 1988)



"Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation." Ingrid Newkirk, PeTA, "Just Like Us? Toward a Notion of Animal Rights" (symposium) Harper's, August 1988, p. 50.



"As the surplus of cats and dogs declined, eventually companion animals would be phased out, and we return to a more symbiotic relationship--enjoyment at a distance." Ingrid Newkirk



"You don't have to own squirrels and starlings to get enjoyment from them....One day, we would like an end to pet shops and the breeding of animals. [Dogs] would pursue their natural lives in the wild...." Ingrid Newkirk PeTA ("Where Would We Be Without Animals?", Chicago Daily Herald, March 1, 1990)

 

[ewm90]

And clearly its not emotional on the pro-life side........

The pro life side is clearly has the most unbiased clearly about the facts.. From the bible.

Yeah, and how pro-choice people believe an individual has the right to determine the value, and merit of an innocent life simply based on emotional philosophies and rationalizations of the obvious death of a human being.

In rape... Two wrongs don't make a right. Rape is wrong, and killing an innocent human that was conceived through rape doesn't make it right.

 

[The Uncola]

I know these are old quotes, but she has never retracted any of them.

INGRID NEWKIRK, President and Founder, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA):



"In the end, I think it would be lovely if we stopped this whole notion of pets altogether." Ingrid Newkirk PeTA (Newsday, Feb. 21, 1988)



"I don't use the word 'pet.' I think it's speciest language. I prefer 'companion animal.' We would no longer allow... pet shops... Eventually companion animals would be phased out." Ingrid Newkirk PeTA (Harper's Magazine, Aug. 1988)



"Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation." Ingrid Newkirk, PeTA, "Just Like Us? Toward a Notion of Animal Rights" (symposium) Harper's, August 1988, p. 50.



"As the surplus of cats and dogs declined, eventually companion animals would be phased out, and we return to a more symbiotic relationship--enjoyment at a distance." Ingrid Newkirk



"You don't have to own squirrels and starlings to get enjoyment from them....One day, we would like an end to pet shops and the breeding of animals. [Dogs] would pursue their natural lives in the wild...." Ingrid Newkirk PeTA ("Where Would We Be Without Animals?", Chicago Daily Herald, March 1, 1990)

Oh good grief, is there any issue you righties won't drag out a bunch of ancient, out of context nonsense about? I mean really! And I'm supposed to take that crap seriously? I'm sure no huge fan of PETA, but that's just plain low rent.

 

[MaggieD]

Oh good grief, is there any issue you righties won't drag out a bunch of ancient, out of context nonsense about? I mean really! And I'm supposed to take that crap seriously? I'm sure no huge fan of PETA, but that's just plain low rent.

I've noticed you call quite a lot of link-substantiated information on DP crap when you disagree with it. A poster went to a lot of work to respond to you, and possibly, GASP, even cause you to actually learn something,and you dismiss it as nonsense. The President and Founder of PETA said these things. To discount them as irrelevant is just plain blindness. You are rapidly becoming incredible yourself.

 

[The Giant Noodle]

We could be killing a unborn puppy.

We dont test to see if dogs are pregnant. there could be a unborn life inside.

We could make it a crime to kill a unborn dog its animal abuse.

Also lets carry all stem cells to term!!

We could start aid stations in the Congo that make shear theres no abortions there.

What the **** are you talking about????

Just STOP animals from screwing. Yeeeesh

 

[Barbbtx]

Oh good grief, is there any issue you righties won't drag out a bunch of ancient, out of context nonsense about? I mean really! And I'm supposed to take that crap seriously? I'm sure no huge fan of PETA, but that's just plain low rent.

Hey, just trying to help you out. The way you got your panties in a wad I'm thinking you may have or still do donate to PETA. Thought maybe you didn't know much about them and what their goals are. I can find plenty more. Like how they've donated to ALF.
Most people think they do things to help animals.

P.S.You can call the quotes ancient, but they are still true. She refruses to retract any of them.

 

[roughdraft274]

I know these are old quotes, but she has never retracted any of them.

INGRID NEWKIRK, President and Founder, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA):



"In the end, I think it would be lovely if we stopped this whole notion of pets altogether." Ingrid Newkirk PeTA (Newsday, Feb. 21, 1988)



"I don't use the word 'pet.' I think it's speciest language. I prefer 'companion animal.' We would no longer allow... pet shops... Eventually companion animals would be phased out." Ingrid Newkirk PeTA (Harper's Magazine, Aug. 1988)



"Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation." Ingrid Newkirk, PeTA, "Just Like Us? Toward a Notion of Animal Rights" (symposium) Harper's, August 1988, p. 50.



"As the surplus of cats and dogs declined, eventually companion animals would be phased out, and we return to a more symbiotic relationship--enjoyment at a distance." Ingrid Newkirk



"You don't have to own squirrels and starlings to get enjoyment from them....One day, we would like an end to pet shops and the breeding of animals. [Dogs] would pursue their natural lives in the wild...." Ingrid Newkirk PeTA ("Where Would We Be Without Animals?", Chicago Daily Herald, March 1, 1990)

In all fairness though, I think that there are many people in PETA that are just trying to help spread awareness of animal cruelty and the need to spay and neuter. With that said, there are some really nutty ****ers that say some wierd stuff in that organization.

 

[ewm90]

What the **** are you talking about????

Just STOP animals from screwing. Yeeeesh

Some thing that is as silly as this hole abortion debate.

Fine some one dose not like abortions so don't have one. Leave the drama with the kids you have to take care of now.

 

[Hatuey]

You know what's hilarious? Relying on hollow and gray philosophy to determine the value of life.

If you think philosophy is hollow you really don't know much about philosophy.

 

[prometeus]

Read your Bible. Dogs don't have souls.

You can read it all you want, just keep it out of law making.

 

[ewm90]

If you think philosophy is hollow you really don't know much about philosophy.

At the end of the day philosophy will not get you far.

With out experiencing your self as some one how can create huge things you can have as mutch rull and facts as you won't and they are useless.

Lets say you have no philosophy of anying knowledge of little to nothing you if you live you of your huge and amazing you can fo amazing things.

So I agree with the statement philosophy is hollow.

People got to stop looking for out side sorse of validation aka the bible. And just get they are there own god.

People are so insacer alot of the time they grab on to some kind truth that helps them get a false sense of how they are and with it strange ideas like abortion kills.

 

[prometeus]

Straw man, I've said repeatedly that the child is innocent of the conditions of his or her conception and that I'd hope the mother would understand that. However due to the circumstances of the situation I understand how abortion in this case could be considered self defense.

It seems you are confused about what self defense is. By that logic you could kill the child of any convicted criminal, as they could turn out to be like their parent. Yea I know the fetus does not have to be like the parent, but neither does it present any danger to be defended against.

 

[Hatuey]

At the end of the day philosophy will not get you far.

With out experiencing your self as some one how can create huge things you can have as mutch rull and facts as you won't and they are useless.

Lets say you have no philosophy of anying knowledge of little to nothing you if you live you of your huge and amazing you can fo amazing things.

So I agree with the statement philosophy is hollow.

People got to stop looking for out side sorse of validation aka the bible. And just get they are there own god.

People are so insacer alot of the time they grab on to some kind truth that helps them get a false sense of how they are and with it strange ideas like abortion kills.

What?

.....

 

[ewm90]

Can you be more pacific about what you don't undersand.

What?

.....