Spreading Islam by the Sword

[Laila]

Ofc, likewise using this 'war on terror' and threat of terrorism is a great way for Labour to push through and limit our civil liberties which would never have been accepted 10 years ago.

War on Islam is cute but impossible and no one would want a war on Muslims. So it must be terrorism instead.
I just dread the day Iran gets attacked.

 

[SgtRock]

As an addendum, the Quran is supposed to be the word of Allah direct from the heavens itself. To motify it would be sacrilegious, which is why even the components that speak to a violent past are still included and known today. But to willingly omit the vast majority of peaceful passages in favor of honing in on ones that are essentially obsolete is nothing more than agenda filled garbage.

You can cherry pick the Bible or the Torah, or any holy book, put the selected sections in quotes, and shout on and on about how it's supporting violence. The fact is, people still have a choice, which most religions also acknowledge.

A choice? Is that why apostates such as Walid Shoebat Walid Shoebat - Former PLO Terrorist who speaks out for Israel and Ayaan Hirsi Ali index.html and others live fear for thier lifes.

Fatwa's against former muslims who speek out against Islam are issued by Islams religious leaders.

There are others such as Dr Homa Darabi Welcome to the Frontpage An Iranian woman who's death was a protest against the treatment of women in the Islamic republic of Iran.

A brief biography of Dr. Homa Darabi
Dr. Homa Darabi was born, premature by two months, to Eshrat Dastyar, a child bride, married at thirteen and Esmaeil Darabi in January of 1940, in Tehran, Iran.

She completed her elementary and high school education in Tehran and immediately entered the University of Tehran School of Medicine after passing the university's entrance exam in 1959. She was in the first 150 out of thousands of students who took the examination and the 300 who were accepted (Medical School's capacity).

She became quite active in politics in order to bring human rights and equal status for women during her freshman year, and was arrested and imprisoned for a while in 1960 during the students' protest against the oppressive regime toward women.

She married her classmate Manoochehr Keyhani, presently a prominent hematologist, in 1963. They brought to this world two intelligent and bright daughters.

Following the completion of her studies at the University of Tehran, Dr. Darabi practiced for two years in Bahmanier, a village in northern Iran. In 1968 she passed the Education Council Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) examination and came to the United States to further her education in Pediatrics. She later specialized in Psychiatry and then in child-psychiatry and was licensed to practice medicine in the States of New Jersey, New York and California. She became a naturalized citizen of the United States in mid 1970's.

Due to pressures from her husband, family and her feeling of giving back to the country what she had taken (the cost of her education), she returned to Iran in 1976 and
was immediately appointed as a professor at the University of Tehran School of Medicine.

She was the first Iranian who was ever able to pass the board in Child-Psychiatry in U.S. and was the one who established the Psychiatric Clinic of Shahid Sahami in Tehran.

Although she was one of the strong supporters of the revolution, she also opposed the estabishment of Islamic Republic. When her Party Leader took advantage of the new Islamic guide lines and took a second wife, Homa became devastated and totally broke away from all politics. She then devoted her time to her profession as a Medical Doctor.

In 1990, she was fired from her position as a professor at the School of Medicine at Tehran University due to her non compliance to the Islamic rules of hijab (Covering up of Women).

She was later harassed in her practice for the same reason. She finally had to close down her practice and become a housewife for the first time in her life.

Under pressures from the parents, Dr. Darabi had to give the label of "mentally incapacitated" to so many perfectly intelligent, bright young girls so that they could be saved from the tortures of the zealots (150 strokes of whip for things such as wearing make-up or lipstick).

When a 16 year old girl was shot to death in Northern Tehran for wearing lipstick about a month prior to her death, Dr. Darabi could no longer handle the guilt she felt about her favorable involvement in the Iranian Revolution, and the way women were being treated in Iran, she finally decided to protest the oppression of women by setting herself on fire in a crowded square in northern Tehran, on February 21, 1994. Her last cry was Death to Tyranny Long Live Liberty

Long Live Iran.

 

[Orion]

A choice? Is that why apostates such as Walid Shoebat Walid Shoebat - Former PLO Terrorist who speaks out for Israel and Ayaan Hirsi Ali index.html and others live fear for thier lifes.

Fatwa's against former muslims who speek out against Islam are issued by Islams religious leaders.

There are others such as Dr Homa Darabi Welcome to the Frontpage An Iranian woman who's death was a protest against the treatment of women in the Islamic republic of Iran.

You've given a great example of what the radicals look like. Again, doesn't prove that Islam as a whole is the reason why violence and terror reign in some parts of the world. Although my original question wasn't directed at you, I think you should now try to answer it: why are some nations with a Muslim majority harbouring unhumanitarian laws while others promote democracy and freedom? Answer me this.

 

[First Thought]

Life of Muhammad = Peaceful & Violent. Many Killings.

Life of Jesus Christ = Peaceful & Loving. No Killings.

Muhammad preached, 'slay infidels til they recognize Allah.'

Jesus Christ preached, 'love your neighbor, even your enemy.'

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword.

Look's like violence to me.

Mark 11:2 And saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him.

Ah! Jesus is telling his followers to steal now, which is in violation of the 10 Commandments.

Jesus was also a hypocrite:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

AND

Matthew 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?​

 

[rhinefire]

Radical Muslims will attempt to kill Obama early in his first term. There can be no doubt. The son of a Muslim will not be allowed to take the office of president much less conduct affairs of America and conduct those afffairs in a manner objectionable to radical Islam. The secondary reason for this act will be to put the icing on the cake of racial mistrust by blacks and this mistrust will eventuate in to a serious if not fatal divide eteranlly between white and black America. It is a plan that is central to the goal of the muslim world to destroy the heart of the west. They cannot do it militarily so this is a gift from Allah. The scenario isperfect for their goals. This son of a Muslim is the greatest slap in the face of Allah should he not tyield to their demands.

 

[First Thought]

Radical Muslims will attempt to kill Obama early in his first term. There can be no doubt. The son of a Muslim will not be allowed to take the office of president much less conduct affairs of America and conduct those afffairs in a manner objectionable to radical Islam. The secondary reason for this act will be to put the icing on the cake of racial mistrust by blacks and this mistrust will eventuate in to a serious if not fatal divide eteranlly between white and black America. It is a plan that is central to the goal of the muslim world to destroy the heart of the west. They cannot do it militarily so this is a gift from Allah. The scenario isperfect for their goals. This son of a Muslim is the greatest slap in the face of Allah should he not tyield to their demands.

Talk about a lot of absurd opinion and no facts.

 

[SgtRock]

Talk about a lot of absurd opinion and no facts.

Hey neighbor, Wylie Tx here. The facts are everywhere you just have to do the research and filter out the bias and political correctness in the media. Read the Quran. Its true there is much good in it, the problem is that many extreamist are using some of its passages to justify there ultimate goal of spreading Islam by the sword. A worldwide islamic caliphate. This is what they want, and if it takes a thousand years to achieve, then so be it. In the meantime many innocents will die.

 

[SgtRock]

You've given a great example of what the radicals look like. Again, doesn't prove that Islam as a whole is the reason why violence and terror reign in some parts of the world. Although my original question wasn't directed at you, I think you should now try to answer it: why are some nations with a Muslim majority harbouring unhumanitarian laws while others promote democracy and freedom? Answer me this.

Could it be that some are theocracies and some have joined the civilized world and have become democracies. Why? because those with unhumanitarian laws are trying to hold onto the old ways which are not compatible with modern society.

 

[First Thought]

Hey neighbor, Wylie Tx here. The facts are everywhere you just have to do the research and filter out the bias and political correctness in the media. Read the Quran. Its true there is much good in it, the problem is that many extreamist are using some of its passages to justify there ultimate goal of spreading Islam by the sword. A worldwide islamic caliphate. This is what they want, and if it takes a thousand years to achieve, then so be it. In the meantime many innocents will die.

Sure, and you're telling me that if Christians or Jews had their way, they wouldn't want to convert everyone else?

What you need to understand is that Islam is in it's infancy. In Christianity's infancy, much blood was spilled and innumerable mistakes made.

 

[SgtRock]

Sure, and you're telling me that if Christians or Jews had their way, they wouldn't want to convert everyone else?

What you need to understand is that Islam is in it's infancy. In Christianity's infancy, much blood was spilled and innumerable mistakes made.

So that makes it ok because its in its infancy. Keep in mind that Mohammad died in Medina June 8th of the year 632. Islam is almost 1400 years as a religion. Hardly an infant. Back to my original point, do you believe that the current state of violent extreamism being felt around the world due to those who choose to spread Islam by the sword (suicide bomb) is justified and we should not be concerned? Is the intolerance and hatred of the Islamic Extreamist any different then that of the much despised Ku Klux Klan or Aryan Nation? Do you consider those who saw the heads off of people like the contractor Nick Berg freedom fighters?

The difference is the relevance of these groups of haters TODAY. Not the past inquisitions, crusades, or lynchings of the last century in America. Should the guilt we feel as ancestors of those who perpitrated genocide of the Native American tribes prevent us from defending and preserving our way of life TODAY? I have been around long enough to know that 911 was not the beging of the jihad against non believers. It has been going on for quite some time. Since bin Laden and his ilk want to convert, subjugate, or eradicate us then we would be fools to think we could negotiate with them. We must kill them before they kill us. An old Jewish saying goes like this. "If Someone comes to kill you, rise up and kill him first"

 

[Slainte]

Back to my original point, do you believe that the current state of violent extreamism being felt around the world due to those who choose to spread Islam by the sword (suicide bomb) is justified and we should not be concerned?

In going back to your original point you've conveniently ignored the counter-argument. The "current state of violent extreamism (sic)" is largely motivated by political grievances, not a type of primal desire to kill or convert all infidels. The verses you have cited are not only ridiculously out of context, they are never even used by Islamic groups in the context which you have implied!

Now, there is a belief within Islam that it is the best and most enlightened religion in the world and that should everyone adopt it, the world would be a better place. This is a belief that I do not share. It is however a belief shared by other proseltyzing religions, indeed that belief is surely what makes something a proseltyzing faith. Your claim that Islam must be spread by the sword is not something backed by either history or scripture. Jews and Christians have lived in peace in Muslim lands for thousands of years, historically Jews even tended to prefer Muslim rule to Christian rule. The verses in the Quran which tell Muslims how they should treat non-believers (that's non-believers in general not a specific group of non-believers from the 10th century which some muslims were at war with), have been recited to you endlessly, so I see little reason to repeat them.

Since bin Laden and his ilk want to convert, subjugate, or eradicate us then we would be fools to think we could negotiate with them.

Bin Laden's originally had 3 main grievances with the USA, the sanctions on Iraq that he blamed for the deaths of thousands of Iraqi children, US presence in Saudi Arabia and US support for Israel. People who support Bin Laden do so becuase they support these demands and other like them, not because they want Islam to conquer the USA. If you can get past the archaic language and repeated references to God, references which are made in order to indicate that Bin Laden believes God would find such actions unjust aswell, not because of anything specifically about Islam. You'll find that most of Bin Ladens points in relation to the West are decidedly political and not religious in nature.

Islamic extremists often do champion legitimate grievances, these grievances have to be addressed. Not because of the terrorism used to champion them either, but because they are legitimate. The only way we are going to address those grievances is through negotiation with someone.

 

[First Thought]

So that makes it ok because its in its infancy. Keep in mind that Mohammad died in Medina June 8th of the year 632. Islam is almost 1400 years as a religion. Hardly an infant.

As far as religion is concerned, it's still in it's infancy. Plus, Muslims have the knowledge of knowing that Muhammad was a real person who actually existed, whereas Jesus' existence is debatable. This bolsters their confidence and convictions.

 

[Laila]

As far as religion is concerned, it's still in it's infancy. Plus, Muslims have the knowledge of knowing that Muhammad was a real person who actually existed, whereas Jesus' existence is debatable. This bolsters their confidence and convictions.

We will most likely see Islam in reforming in our lifetime.
The last few years have almost triggered it.

 

[SgtRock]

Bin Laden and al Zawahiri want an Islamic superstate, this is the main reason the United States was attacked on 911. For this to take place al Qaeda must overthrow the individual nation states in the Middle East, most of them colonial creations, and unite them into a single, pan Islamic state. But Ayman al Zawahiri's organization, al Jihad al Islami, had tried very hard to overthrow the Egyptian state, and was defeated. Al Zawahiri thought that because of the U.S. backing for Egypt. And U.S. support of Israel kept it dominant in the Levant (eastern Mediterranean). Also the U.S. was backed by the Saudi royal family.

Al-Zawahiri then hit upon the idea of attacking the far enemy first. That is, since the United States was propping up the governments of Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc., all of which al Qaeda wanted to overthrow so as to meld them into a single, Islamic super state, then it would hit the United States first. Hence the attacks on 9-11.

This is all part of a grand scheme to eventually prepare the world for the return of the 12th Imam (the Mahdi) who will rule the world under a new Islamic caliphate. There is a belief amongst some muslims that bin Laden is Imam Mahdi.

 

[Oftencold]

. . . But to willingly omit the vast majority of peaceful passages in favor of honing in on ones that are essentially obsolete . . .

As I understand it, calling these passages "obsolete" is sacrilege and an offense against Islam.

Further, since what is arguably the most active portion of the Islamic World uses these passages to justify their more colorful acts, such as murder, they cannot accurately be describes as obsolete.

 

[Laila]

As I understand it, calling these passages "obsolete" is sacrilege and an offense against Islam.

Further, since what is arguably the most active portion of the Islamic World uses these passages to justify their more colorful acts, such as murder, they cannot accurately be describes as obsolete.

It is?
How can a religion take offense? Do you mean offensive to Muslims and if you do, i see nothing offensive within that statement.

 

[Oftencold]

Originally Posted by Oftencold ​

As I understand it, calling these passages "obsolete" is sacrilege and an offense against Islam.
​

Further, since what is arguably the most active portion of the Islamic World uses these passages to justify their more colorful acts, such as murder, they cannot accurately be describes as obsolete.​

It is?
How can a religion take offense? Do you mean offensive to Muslims and if you do, i see nothing offensive within that statement.

This is a term in common usage among Islamicists publishing opinions in the West. Much as we would say that a crime is "an offense against the law."

Crimes against Islam under Sharia, are often punishable by death, or justification for unending war.

 

[moe]

The only people I see quoting scripture are the pseudo-experts in the West who think they understand the motivations of terrorism to the East. The vast majority of the time, the terrorists have been claiming political reasons for the attacks, not religious reasons. .

In Islam there is no separation of Church and state. Their religious beliefs are the foundation and guiding principle of their political agenda.

Not that any of the Islam "experts" would be able to acknowledge that. How could they when they don't know any Middle Eastern languages and therefore can't look up the full story?

The full story is written in the bloodshed that spans the Middle East Africa and parts of Asia. We had a real good look at what the Quran teaches when the Taliban ruled Afghanistan.

If Islam were a religion of war in the modern era, then we would be seeing a much more violent, united front coming from the Middle East.

That is because the Sunni's and the Shiite's hate each other almost as much as they hate the west and the Israel. If they ever succeed in killing all their enemies they will promptly turn to killing each other. Bad case of High Lander syndrome. There can only be one!

But we're not. It's politics, plain and simple. Why are some Muslim countries not involved in wars at all,

Good Strategy. Somebody has to help to help Bank roll the countries that are and it helps to have a few Muslim governments that have an appearance of neutrality for negotiation purposes.

Islam is not the problem

you say that Islamic extermists are fighting for political purposes. The modern day freedom fighters. Where were the Islamic freedom fighters when Saddam was killing his own people? Where are the Islamic freedom fighters to free Iranians from the reign of terror the mullahas and the Immams are inflicting upon them? Instead of using funds to launch rocket attacks against Israeli citizens why aren't they using those funds to build hospitals and schools in Palestine? Why every time there is almost a peaceful political solution to the Palestinian problem do the "Freedom Fighters" step up their attacks against the Israelis insuring its failure and guaranteeing the sensless bloodshed will continue?

And then to add insult to injury the "Freedom Fighters" Point to the hapless Palestinians and shout look at the injustices that are being committed against these poor people. And I really do not see to many of the Muslim countries putting any real effort into relieving the suffering of their Palestinian brethren.

Of course if there were a peacful settlement that would not really work in the "freedom Fighters" Favor because it would be one less ax grind with Israel and one step closer to full acceptance for Israel to exist as a ligitiment independant state in the Middle East.

But alas, Thats Islamic politics.:boom

Moe

 

[SgtRock]

In Islam there is no separation of Church and state. Their religious beliefs are the foundation and guiding principle of their political agenda.





The full story is written in the bloodshed that spans the Middle East Africa and parts of Asia. We had a real good look at what the Quran teaches when the Taliban ruled Afghanistan.




That is because the Sunni's and the Shiite's hate each other almost as much as they hate the west and the Israel. If they ever succeed in killing all their enemies they will promptly turn to killing each other. Bad case of High Lander syndrome. There can only be one!





Good Strategy. Somebody has to help to help Bank roll the countries that are and it helps to have a few Muslim governments that have an appearance of neutrality for negotiation purposes.






you say that Islamic extermists are fighting for political purposes. The modern day freedom fighters. Where were the Islamic freedom fighters when Saddam was killing his own people? Where are the Islamic freedom fighters to free Iranians from the reign of terror the mullahas and the Immams are inflicting upon them? Instead of using funds to launch rocket attacks against Israeli citizens why aren't they using those funds to build hospitals and schools in Palestine? Why every time there is almost a peaceful political solution to the Palestinian problem do the "Freedom Fighters" step up their attacks against the Israelis insuring its failure and guaranteeing the sensless bloodshed will continue?

And then to add insult to injury the "Freedom Fighters" Point to the hapless Palestinians and shout look at the injustices that are being committed against these poor people. And I really do not see to many of the Muslim countries putting any real effort into relieving the suffering of their Palestinian brethren.

Of course if there were a peacful settlement that would not really work in the "freedom Fighters" Favor because it would be one less ax grind with Israel and one step closer to full acceptance for Israel to exist as a ligitiment independant state in the Middle East.

But alas, Thats Islamic politics.:boom

Moe

Well put, welcome to Debate Politics, its good to have someone on board that has a good understanding of this issue. Thankyou, Sgt Rock

 

[Laila]

Crimes against Islam under Sharia, are often punishable by death, or justification for unending war.

Those who tend to hand out those sentences are fools themselves. But i take your point.

 

[First Thought]

In Islam there is no separation of Church and state. Their religious beliefs are the foundation and guiding principle of their political agenda.

Ah yes! Christians do not shape their political agendas around their religion or use it as the basis of their guiding principles... Oh, wait. :2wave:

 

[SgtRock]

Ah yes! Christians do not shape their political agendas around their religion or use it as the basis of their guiding principles... Oh, wait. :2wave:

In the United States we have a seperation of church and state. We are a democracy not a theocracy.

In Iran the theocratic government hangs people simply for being gay. They hang women for having premarital sex. Political prisoners are lashed with whips.

Are christians like Cheney and Bush hanging gays in the public square?

I think you are quite mixed up and IMO you should stop listening to whoever is attempting to indoctrinate you. Think for yourself, do some research.

 

[Laila]

In the United States we have a seperation of church and state. We are a democracy not a theocracy.

Yeah right.
You tell yourself that at night.

Religion influences your politics so much; you may as well tear down this seperation.
Inside US, a President cannot get into office without expressing love for God and the Bible in recent years.

 

[First Thought]

In the United States we have a seperation of church and state. We are a democracy not a theocracy.

I'm not arguing that we have a theocracy. I'm arguing that the majority of religious people's political views and principles are fashioned from the words of an archaic book. It is for this reason that we have people in both the House and the Senate who allow their spiritual beliefs to have a hand in policy making.

 

[moe]

I'm not arguing that we have a theocracy. I'm arguing that the majority of religious people's political views and principles are fashioned from the words of an archaic book. It is for this reason that we have people in both the House and the Senate who allow their spiritual beliefs to have a hand in policy making.

Yeah right.
You tell yourself that at night.

Religion influences your politics so much; you may as well tear down this seperation.
Inside US, a President cannot get into office without expressing love for God and the Bible in recent years.

Which is why we have legal abortion. No prayer in public schools and intelligent design is not permitted to be taught in our schools because religion controls our politics so much.

Basically what has happened in the US is that the religious segment of our population got tired of being run over by liberal humanists politics and we woke up to the fact that like it or not we had to become more involved in the political process.

The difference in the US or a similar political system is we vote, and then you vote, if your side wins to bad for us. In the Muslim world nobody votes and nothing changes. Quran rules supreme.

Moe