Soon to be single payer.

[Greenbeard]

Funny, I always thought that monopolies lead to higher prices than open competition would allow.

Single-payer is an example of a monopsony, not a monopoly, which is why the argument is that it would drive down prices.

 

[Helix]

You move the goal posts yet again. Your initial premise was that gov't control would limit costs (or cost increases), which I showed to be false. Now you wish to quibble over whether the costs are passed on to the actual users or born by society at large. Note that college tuition costs have risen just as much (if not more) in public institutions as in private - therefore gov't control does not limit costs.

i don't really wish to quibble about anything with pissed off libertarians. i was one for long enough. the free market doesn't work when there's a natural disaster and you're the dude selling water. that's the dynamic of health care.

as for education, we are dog dumb for embracing financial Darwinism as the gateway to college. we make it prohibitively expensive, and then bitch that everyone is uneducated. putting a paywall in front of our intellectual resource pool is a very poor plan.

 

[MAGAnificent]

no other first world country is pushing to dump its system in favor of ours. that should tell you something.

I do not lose sleep at night based on what other first, second, or third world countries would or would not do. We are a unique nation. We became the world's most powerful country economically and militarily by doing things our own way. Pre-obamacare, despite it's flaws, I would take America's healthcare system over any other system on the planet. America is still the place people come to for advanced life saving high tech healthcare if they have a choice. Socialized medicine/single payer is not an improvement. Yes....American healthcare is expensive....however that is what should be addressed. Obamacare or universal healthcare in effect throws the baby out with the bath water.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Single-payer is an example of a monopsony, not a monopoly, which is why the argument is that it would drive down prices.

And drive down the quantity and quality of healthcare as well.

 

[Helix]

It could have had the motives been honest. In any case....doing nothing at all would have been better then Obamacare.

not really. we already have UHC. we have the most inefficient form of it, but we have had it since Reagan.

either way, as i've said, I agree that the ACA is not the best solution. i disagree that the two party system could have produced anything better during this time of hyperpartisan rage. i seriously think that some of you would fight to the death with each other if it was more convenient.

 

[Helix]

I do not lose sleep at night based on what other first, second, or third world countries would or would not do. We are a unique nation. We became the world's most powerful country economically and militarily by doing things our own way. Pre-obamacare, despite it's flaws, I would take America's healthcare system over any other system on the planet. America is still the place people come to for advanced life saving high tech healthcare if they have a choice. Socialized medicine/single payer is not an improvement. Yes....American healthcare is expensive....however that is what should be addressed. Obamacare or universal healthcare in effect throws the baby out with the bath water.

meanwhile, America is one of the few examples of a first world nation in which medical bills push people over the edge into bankruptcy. i'd like to see that status quo corrected.

 

[MAGAnificent]

not really. we already have UHC. we have the most inefficient form of it, but we have had it since Reagan.

either way, as i've said, I agree that the ACA is not the best solution. i disagree that the two party system could have produced anything better during this time of hyperpartisan rage. i seriously think that some of you would fight to the death with each other if it was more convenient.

If left to the white house and congress alone.....I agree. It would take the voters getting much more involved. Perhaps if as expected the democrats get wiped out in the midterms common sense reform will beging to take root.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Single-payer is an example of a monopsony, not a monopoly, which is why the argument is that it would drive down prices.

That does not explain why public education costs are rising fast. Gov't programs always look good on paper yet seem to behave differently as actually implemented. I would like to see this concept tested at the state level; provide the driving records for every licensed driver in the state, solicit bids for insuring the entrie state and award the bid to a selected private carrier - pay for that "universal coverage" by dividing that bid amount by the number of gallons of motor fuel sold in the state and adding that amount to the tax on each gallon of motor fuel.

 

[Helix]

If left to the white house and congress alone.....I agree. It would take the voters getting much more involved. Perhaps if as expected the democrats get wiped out in the midterms common sense reform will beging to take root.

nah, then it will just be hyperpartisan fury driving a different agenda. eventually, i'll just turn off the tv, surrender my paycheck to whoever has bought it, and take a nice walk in the sun.

 

[Henrin]

It's only one part of what needs to be done, but a single entity covering all basic care has a better ability to force costs down.

That is one of the most insane things I have heard in a while. A single entity controlling an industry forces prices and costs up, not down. The government has a tendency to become less worried about costs because there is no real limit to the amount they can spend, so costs of government services just increase in cost, while in the private sector if there is no competition prices just increase because there is no good reason to control the price.

 

[Henrin]

Single-payer is an example of a monopsony, not a monopoly, which is why the argument is that it would drive down prices.

That would only work if we were dealing with a customer in a market that was spending their own money. If you are spending someone else's money you aren't much concerned how much you are spending.

 

[Your Star]

Good, the country needs single payer.

And no, private insurance won't go away. They will adapt like they did in every other country and be fine. It is the best health care system, it just ****ing is.

 

[Helix]

That is one of the most insane things I have heard in a while. A single entity controlling an industry forces prices and costs up, not down. The government has a tendency to become less worried about costs because there is no real limit to the amount they can spend, so costs of government services just increase in cost, while in the private sector if there is no competition prices just increase because there is no good reason to control the price.

and you've just highlighted the problem. when your kid's really sick or hurt, you have no choice but the closest place, which can (and does) charge whatever it wants. the government has a proper role in providing or regulating essential services with inelastic demand, IMO.

as for insurance, it's still largely tied to specific employment. it is the most inefficient health care delivery system in the first world.

 

[MAGAnificent]

and you've just highlighted the problem. when your kid's really sick or hurt, you have no choice but the closest place, which can (and does) charge whatever it wants. the government has a proper role in providing or regulating essential services with inelastic demand, IMO.

as for insurance, it's still largely tied to specific employment. it is the most inefficient health care delivery system in the first world.

No......just the most expensive.

 

[Helix]

No......just the most expensive.

you can't be serious.

we have a system in which access to health insurance is largely employer specific. in fact, the employers are forced to provide it, so they cook the books so that they don't have to, pushing even more people below the poverty line. now, if the people aren't poor enough, they can't qualify for medicaid, so they go and get primary care at the emergency room, the single most expensive point of access. then those of us with insurance pay insanely high premiums which go up by double digit percentages every year.

meanwhile, the AMA does what it can to limit the supply of doctors, so med school costs $30k a year. those doctors graduate with crushing debt and have to buy insane amounts of malpractice insurance, making medical care even more expensive.

the system is three shades of ****ed up. it should be replaced.

 

[tres borrachos]

you can't be serious.

we have a system in which access to health insurance is largely employer specific. in fact, the employers are forced to provide it, so they cook the books so that they don't have to, pushing even more people below the poverty line. now, if the people aren't poor enough, they can't qualify for medicaid, so they go and get primary care at the emergency room, the single most expensive point of access. then those of us with insurance pay insanely high premiums which go up by double digit percentages every year.

meanwhile, the AMA does what it can to limit the supply of doctors, so med school costs $30k a year. those doctors graduate with crushing debt and have to buy insane amounts of malpractice insurance, making medical care even more expensive.

the system is three shades of ****ed up. it should be replaced.

Unfortunately it costs a lot more than $30,000 a year for medical school.

 

[Helix]

Unfortunately it costs a lot more than $30,000 a year for medical school.

I don't doubt it. The one I work at costs $30k, I think.

 

[tres borrachos]

I don't doubt it. The one I work at costs $30k, I think.

The median four-year cost to attend medical school -- which includes outlays like living expenses and books -- for the class of 2013 is $278,455 at private schools and $207,868 at public ones, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges, a nonprofit group of U.S. schools.

Medical School at $278,000 Means Even Bernanke Son Has Debt - Bloomberg


Can you imagine?? Bless them all. I couldn't handle that kind of debt.

 

[Helix]

The median four-year cost to attend medical school -- which includes outlays like living expenses and books -- for the class of 2013 is $278,455 at private schools and $207,868 at public ones, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges, a nonprofit group of U.S. schools.

Medical School at $278,000 Means Even Bernanke Son Has Debt - Bloomberg


Can you imagine?? Bless them all. I couldn't handle that kind of debt.

Yep, me neither. Imagine how many potentially great doctors avoid the field due to cost.

 

[tres borrachos]

Yep, me neither. Imagine how many potentially great doctors avoid the field due to cost.

I do, and it upsets me every time. But I honestly can't blame them.

 

[274ina]

Sounds like the paradise of every other western nation that has free universal care..............

No $200 mill CEo's
No extortionist criminal Dr's...........
No HC deaths from denied care

 

[Fenton]

Massachusetts proved to be
sustainable. Hell if we get single payer that will be awesome tho!!

So a Government created centrally planned attempt ( ObamaCare ) fails miserably and winds up wasting Billions of dollars and you think the Solution is to give the same people who are responsible for this mess a second chance by allowing them to institute Single Payer ???

Whats wrong with you people ? ( Socialist )

ObamaCare isn't just wasting allot of money is hurting allot of people but you don't care.

Because your loyal to your ideology only.

 

[iliveonramen]

That's the end game, we lost guys. Give it up, in two to three years as this monstrosity of a mess implodes, we'll be forced into paying higher taxes and private insurance will be outlawed. We'll all be on some national form of "Medicare", we'll get our "Medicare" cards, and all get "free" access to basic care. That's the end game.

The Progressive desire to destroy the concept of Natural Law governing our limited form of Government is reaching it's pinnacle.

Those on the left, and who think Rights just mean whatever will be ecstatic. Most people are when their ideology "wins". And they won. We lost. Get over it. Single Payer will be enacted before the year 2020. We can be just like the "rest of the world!"

Yay us.

Don't blame Obama, don't blame Congress, don't blame FDR or TR.

Blame your fellow ****ing Americans, who have surrendered the most precious gift our Founding Fathers gave us, in return for "free stuff".

They are to blame.

So conservatives oscillate wildly from Obama is incompetent...to Obama being a master manipulator.

 

[Renae]

So conservatives oscillate wildly from Obama is incompetent...to Obama being a master manipulator.

No, you misread that terribly. But thanks for playing anyway.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

So a Government created centrally planned attempt ( ObamaCare )

"Centrally planned"? Its not centrally planned. Its regulated but not planned.

fails miserably and winds up wasting Billions of dollars

Failed?
More like more people covered, access for more people but its true healthcare cost rose by 15%. But i wouldnt call that "failing miserably"...
http://kaiserfamilyfoundation.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/8311.pdf

and you think the Solution is to give the same people who are responsible for this mess a second chance by allowing them to institute Single Payer ???

As results have shown drastically through many many studies single payer universal healthcare outperforms privately ran/regulated helathcare.

Whats wrong with you people ? ( Socialist )

What? I mean i guess all those studies and facts must be "(socialist)"

ObamaCare isn't just wasting allot of money is hurting allot of people but you don't care.

Yea... :roll: More people getting covered is sooo terrible.

Because your loyal to your ideology only.

The ACA isnt my ideology. Mine would be you know government ran single payer.