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Something I dont understand [W:457]

nathanjames1791

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I see this over and over again. Someone pro-life accuses someone pro-choice of "liking abortions" or being "pro-abortion" or thinking "abortion is great". Nearly every time a comment like that is almost immediately me with an extremely offended reply from the pro-choice person, repeatedly saying how much they do NOT like abortion. Why? It is obvious to me that the pro-choice people on this forum do not like abortion, in fact they nearly dislike it as much as the pro-life people on these forums, so why do they fight so hard against those who are pro-life? They obviously see something wrong with abortion, somewhere deep down they relize that it is not right and no matter how they defend it they still have these feelings and every once in a while these feelings will bubble to the surface. I have to wonder do they even relize it? Are they aware?

So pro-choice people out there what is it? Why do get so offended if someone says you are "pro-abortion" what is it about abortion that doesnt sit right with you? And why do you continue you to defend it when you obviously have bad feelings towards it?
 
I like abortion, I think it's a GOOD thing and should be utilised more. There are too many women giving birth who should not be doing so. However, that is not up to the state to mandate either way.
 
It isn't ever "fun" to terminate life. Life, however, is not black and white. When one looks at the data it becomes painfully obvious that abortion is often the "lesser of two evils" scenario for the potential child. Being raised by a parent or set of parents who did not want you or weren't prepared for you or who are incapable of adequately raising you is infinitely worse than never knowing existence at all. Being given up for adoption isn't all roses, hugs, and happy endings, either.

As a pro-choicer, I accept that without abortion many more children will suffer through abuse, neglect, starvation, and emotional trauma than do currently. And currently the number is already too damned high.

I'd rather we killed 1 million "babies" before they're able to comprehend living or suffer physical or emotional pain than let even 10 children suffer.

I don't relish or celebrate abortion, I just recognize that ultimately the child never suffers if it is aborted. The same can't be said for children who we force to be born based on some idealistic, perfect world concept of the "soul" , morality, and "right to life".
 
It isn't ever "fun" to terminate life. Life, however, is not black and white. When one looks at the data it becomes painfully obvious that abortion is often the "lesser of two evils" scenario for the potential child. Being raised by a parent or set of parents who did not want you or weren't prepared for you or who are incapable of adequately raising you is infinitely worse than never knowing existence at all. Being given up for adoption isn't all roses, hugs, and happy endings, either.

As a pro-choicer, I accept that without abortion many more children will suffer through abuse, neglect, starvation, and emotional trauma than do currently. And currently the number is already too damned high.

I'd rather we killed 1 million "babies" before they're able to comprehend living or suffer physical or emotional pain than let even 10 children suffer.

I don't relish or celebrate abortion, I just recognize that ultimately the child never suffers if it is aborted. The same can't be said for children who we force to be born based on some idealistic, perfect world concept of the "soul" , morality, and "right to life".

I can agree that there exists in this world, incredibly ****ty parents. People not fit for even themselves.
The problem I personally have with the argument is that you are choosing the target that cannot defend his or her self for punishment.
If the parents are that bad to begin with, then why do we permit them in society at all?
Would we shrug it off if a crack addicted mother beat her child to death? The already born child is just as defenseless as the unborn one, is it not?
 
It isn't ever "fun" to terminate life. Life, however, is not black and white. When one looks at the data it becomes painfully obvious that abortion is often the "lesser of two evils" scenario for the potential child. Being raised by a parent or set of parents who did not want you or weren't prepared for you or who are incapable of adequately raising you is infinitely worse than never knowing existence at all. Being given up for adoption isn't all roses, hugs, and happy endings, either.

This is a measurable quantity. You just have to survey those given up for adoption or those who have had hard/abusive childhood to find out if they would have rather never existed. I'm not 100% sure it would pan out on your side.
 
This is a measurable quantity. You just have to survey those given up for adoption or those who have had hard/abusive childhood to find out if they would have rather never existed. I'm not 100% sure it would pan out on your side.

Actually I only know of one person who thinks they would have been better off had they been aborted.
 
I see this over and over again. Someone pro-life accuses someone pro-choice of "liking abortions" or being "pro-abortion" or thinking "abortion is great". Nearly every time a comment like that is almost immediately me with an extremely offended reply from the pro-choice person, repeatedly saying how much they do NOT like abortion. Why? It is obvious to me that the pro-choice people on this forum do not like abortion, in fact they nearly dislike it as much as the pro-life people on these forums, so why do they fight so hard against those who are pro-life? They obviously see something wrong with abortion, somewhere deep down they relize that it is not right and no matter how they defend it they still have these feelings and every once in a while these feelings will bubble to the surface. I have to wonder do they even relize it? Are they aware?

So pro-choice people out there what is it? Why do get so offended if someone says you are "pro-abortion" what is it about abortion that doesnt sit right with you? And why do you continue you to defend it when you obviously have bad feelings towards it?

uhm I can only answer for me. I dont get offend over the term pro-abortion because theres no such thing or if somebody says i "like" abortion because again thats just stupidity LOL

for me its really simply, abortion isnt the best thing but that in no way means I want it outlawed and peoples freedoms taken from them. Freedom of speech isnt always good either but I wouldnt take that freedom away.

The unfortunate fact is, there can not be equal rights given to the woman and the ZEF, its impossible. You must pick one and I pick the woman for various obvious reasons.

I wish it didnt have to be that way but because of the reality and the fact of where the ZEF resides.

reality isnt all sunshine and rainbows but it is what it is, reality

death penalty isnt nice, shooting an intruder isnt nice etc etc murder isnt nice but ill defend all of those too.

theres people I know that arent gay friendly but they think its totally wrong to not give them equal rights?
theres people out there that dont think interracial marriage is good but they still defend the freedom to do so

etc etc etc

some people respect that fact that their feeling and opinions aret to be pushed on others all the time and somethings are left up to the individual and not forced on them :shrug:
 
uhm I can only answer for me. I dont get offend over the term pro-abortion because theres no such thing or if somebody says i "like" abortion because again thats just stupidity LOL

for me its really simply, abortion isnt the best thing but that in no way means I want it outlawed and peoples freedoms taken from them. Freedom of speech isnt always good either but I wouldnt take that freedom away.

The unfortunate fact is, there can not be equal rights given to the woman and the ZEF, its impossible. You must pick one and I pick the woman for various obvious reasons.

I wish it didnt have to be that way but because of the reality and the fact of where the ZEF resides.

reality isnt all sunshine and rainbows but it is what it is, reality

death penalty isnt nice, shooting an intruder isnt nice etc etc murder isnt nice but ill defend all of those too.

theres people I know that arent gay friendly but they think its totally wrong to not give them equal rights?
theres people out there that dont think interracial marriage is good but they still defend the freedom to do so

etc etc etc

some people respect that fact that their feeling and opinions aret to be pushed on others all the time and somethings are left up to the individual and not forced on them :shrug:

At least it makes me feal better to know that at least most pro-choice people relize abortion is not a great thing.
 
At least it makes me feal better to know that at least most pro-choice people relize abortion is not a great thing.

most?
well I cant speak for them all of course but I havent met or encountered "any" that dont realize that, have you?

do you know anybody that thinks abortion is great? lol
 
This is a measurable quantity. You just have to survey those given up for adoption or those who have had hard/abusive childhood to find out if they would have rather never existed. I'm not 100% sure it would pan out on your side.

I'm fairly confident it would.

But what do I know? I just lived it from both sides.
 
I can agree that there exists in this world, incredibly ****ty parents. People not fit for even themselves.
The problem I personally have with the argument is that you are choosing the target that cannot defend his or her self for punishment.
If the parents are that bad to begin with, then why do we permit them in society at all?
Would we shrug it off if a crack addicted mother beat her child to death? The already born child is just as defenseless as the unborn one, is it not?

You're coming from the perspective that the unborn child has some sort of awareness of its "punishment".
 
You're coming from the perspective that the unborn child has some sort of awareness of its "punishment".

Awareness doesn't really matter. A newborn child is not completely aware.

Infant cognitive development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Causality rules

Babies less than a year old can distinguish causal events from non-causal ones that have similar spatio-temporal properties. When one solid object appears to pass through another, infants are surprised. They distinguish objects that move only when acted upon from ones that are capable of self-generated motion (the inanimate/animate distinction).

The newborn has roughly the same cognitive ability as the unborn, dependent upon its development stage in the womb. That is why unborn babies kick when they either;

1. Hear something
2. See something (the flashlight on the belly trick)
3. Feel something

The information presented shows that neither would actually be aware they are being punished, so as I said, awareness doesn't really matter. We punish a crack addicted mother for killing a newborn, what makes the life of the unborn (not yet delivered) any less valuable in this case?
 
most?
well I cant speak for them all of course but I havent met or encountered "any" that dont realize that, have you?

do you know anybody that thinks abortion is great? lol

Look at the very first reply on this thread. Thats not the first person I have heard say something along those lines. In fact I have heard much bigger endorsements for abortions. Its really quite sad to me.
 
You're coming from the perspective that the unborn child has some sort of awareness of its "punishment".

Does someone have to be aware for it to be bad? If I kill you in your sleep does that somehow lessen the crime I have committed?
 
Look at the very first reply on this thread. Thats not the first person I have heard say something along those lines. In fact I have heard much bigger endorsements for abortions. Its really quite sad to me.

LMAO

I could be wrong, shed have to answer for herself but I took some of that post as facetious but again, I ask, do you know anybody that thinks abortion is great? lol theres no negatives to it.

id also like to see theres other "endorsements" and how you define them.

I myself endorse it in a way, as I feel its a choice and right that should be a option.
 
Something I dont understand

It isn't ever "fun" to terminate life. Life, however, is not black and white. When one looks at the data it becomes painfully obvious that abortion is often the "lesser of two evils" scenario for the potential child. Being raised by a parent or set of parents who did not want you or weren't prepared for you or who are incapable of adequately raising you is infinitely worse than never knowing existence at all. Being given up for adoption isn't all roses, hugs, and happy endings, either.

As a pro-choicer, I accept that without abortion many more children will suffer through abuse, neglect, starvation, and emotional trauma than do currently. And currently the number is already too damned high.

I'd rather we killed 1 million "babies" before they're able to comprehend living or suffer physical or emotional pain than let even 10 children suffer.

I don't relish or celebrate abortion, I just recognize that ultimately the child never suffers if it is aborted. The same can't be said for children who we force to be born based on some idealistic, perfect world concept of the "soul" , morality, and "right to life".

What a depressing,defeated,pathetic post. Of course we live in a fallen world. It can be terrible at times, but as a good society we are able to fight back against evil. Throwing your hands in the air and basically saying uncle is a worthless attitude. It is not idealistic to identify a problem and realize it doesn't have to be this way. Just ask these folks--

http://www.azcentral.com/news/polit...ith-groups-step-up-fill-foster-care-need.html


Btw, it is dishonest of you to portray all abortions as an escape from impending torture,neglect, and starvation. I know of two young women who both would have been fine mothers that had abortions because they chose to keep their life "normal".
 
I see this over and over again. Someone pro-life accuses someone pro-choice of "liking abortions" or being "pro-abortion" or thinking "abortion is great". Nearly every time a comment like that is almost immediately me with an extremely offended reply from the pro-choice person, repeatedly saying how much they do NOT like abortion. Why? It is obvious to me that the pro-choice people on this forum do not like abortion, in fact they nearly dislike it as much as the pro-life people on these forums, so why do they fight so hard against those who are pro-life? They obviously see something wrong with abortion, somewhere deep down they relize that it is not right and no matter how they defend it they still have these feelings and every once in a while these feelings will bubble to the surface. I have to wonder do they even relize it? Are they aware?

So pro-choice people out there what is it? Why do get so offended if someone says you are "pro-abortion" what is it about abortion that doesnt sit right with you? And why do you continue you to defend it when you obviously have bad feelings towards it?

We're not stupid, you know - we're not heartless beasts like you're imagining.

My children I do have (4) are my priority - and whether I have more or don't have more is purely up to my husband and I to decide together if perchance my efforts to avoid pregnancy by subverting mother nature are ineffective and i end up pregnant.

don't you agree?

Can a married could determine if they are going to continue to grow a family or not?

It's really quite simple - it has nothing to do with emotions about abortion and unborn babies. :shrug:
 
Can a married could determine if they are going to continue to grow a family or not?

Yes, with tubal ligations, vasectomies, birth control, condoms (married, so not preferred), and other means of preventing pregnancy.
 
I see this over and over again. Someone pro-life accuses someone pro-choice of "liking abortions" or being "pro-abortion" or thinking "abortion is great". Nearly every time a comment like that is almost immediately me with an extremely offended reply from the pro-choice person, repeatedly saying how much they do NOT like abortion. Why? It is obvious to me that the pro-choice people on this forum do not like abortion, in fact they nearly dislike it as much as the pro-life people on these forums, so why do they fight so hard against those who are pro-life? They obviously see something wrong with abortion, somewhere deep down they relize that it is not right and no matter how they defend it they still have these feelings and every once in a while these feelings will bubble to the surface. I have to wonder do they even relize it? Are they aware?

So pro-choice people out there what is it? Why do get so offended if someone says you are "pro-abortion" what is it about abortion that doesnt sit right with you? And why do you continue you to defend it when you obviously have bad feelings towards it?

I'm one of your pro-choice people who would never say I "like" abortion. I will say that I dislike unwanted pregnancy, for every girl or woman, no matter the reason it is unwanted. I love my fellow women and girls, not in a homosexual way, but in a shared humanity way. I have studied them via anthropology, European and American history, and Asian history. I know the histories of laws against their independence, autonomy, freedom, and equality, I know cases of persecution of them for various reasons at varied times in history and across the world, I have read their writings, contemplated their art works, admired their known cases of heroism. I have taught and tutored them, and I have been friends with them, with women and girls from all over the world as well as here. They are persons, and I wish for them what I wish for all born people: I wish them to have the lives they want as long as they do not harm anyone outside their own body boundaries. For genuine persons, the most wonderful things to have are awareness, active mind, and liberty of person, including the liberty to control one's own body so that it behaves in accord with one's active mind and conscience.

I do not understand blastocysts, embryos, or fetuses to be capable of those things, for they can continue living only if implanted into the tissue of a woman's body, and even if implanted, they can continue living only if that woman's body continues living up to their viability, so I do not consider them to have lives of their own up to that point. I do not consider them to be persons until they are born and, in being born, transformed for living in biological independence as persons.

I consider human sexual intercourse to have as its primary purpose the mutual consensual sharing of intimate affection between two people. To me, its biological purpose, which is the reproduction of the species, is not primary, because the importance of human beings does not come from their being biological, but rather from their great capacity for awareness, active mind, and liberty, and, therefore, for higher mental and spiritual life, which I do not consider to be dependent on physico-chemical existence or biological life.

I therefore support a girl's or woman's right to choose whether or not to get pregnant and whether or not to stay pregnant and give birth, because pregnancy and childbirth most often impinge negatively on their bodies and it is their right to make decisions about whether or not they want to sacrifice the more positive bodily normality of being unpregnant and not giving birth in order to develop and give birth to new people.

In that context, abortion, like the morning after pill and all forms of safe contraception, is useful to girls and women because it allows them to experience mutual consensual sharing of intimate affection with people of the opposite sex without being forced to serve the merely biological purpose of reproduction of the species and it allows them to avoid the consequences of coerced, non-mutual sexual intercouse. It would be better if unwanted pregnancy simply never occurred - that would obviate the need for either abortion or the morning after pill to serve that liberty for female persons. This might be possible with better contraception and sex education. But it would be ideal if we did not even need contraception.

So I am no more pro-abortion than I am pro-morning after pill and pro-contraception and pro-sex education. I am simply anti-unwanted pregnancy, in the interests of the liberty of girls and women as persons.

There is, however, a limit on my support of abortion in the interests of the liberty of girls and women. Abortions in later pregnancy are dangerous for women and viable fetuses in most cases could become new people if simply removed from women's bodies, so I think it makes sense to limit such abortions to cases of greater danger to the woman's life/health or cases of seriously deformed/disabled fetuses, or those rare cases where impregnated rape victims are held captive until later pregnancy and then want to end the pregnancies.

So I do not think of myself as pro-abortion, because ideally unwanted pregnancies should never occur or continue, and it is only because they do that abortion exists to protect the liberty, autonomy, and bodily control of girls and women as persons.
 
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What a depressing,defeated,pathetic post. Of course we live in a fallen world. It can be terrible at times, but as a good society we are able to fight back against evil. Throwing your hands in the air and basically saying uncle is a worthless attitude. It is not idealistic to identify a problem and realize it doesn't have to be this way. Just ask these folks--

Arizona faith groups step up to fill foster-care need



Btw, it is dishonest of you to portray all abortions as an escape from impending torture,neglect, and starvation. I know of two young women who both would have been fine mothers that had abortions because they chose to keep their life "normal".

I never said all abortions...
 
I see this over and over again. Someone pro-life accuses someone pro-choice of "liking abortions" or being "pro-abortion" or thinking "abortion is great". Nearly every time a comment like that is almost immediately me with an extremely offended reply from the pro-choice person, repeatedly saying how much they do NOT like abortion. Why? It is obvious to me that the pro-choice people on this forum do not like abortion, in fact they nearly dislike it as much as the pro-life people on these forums, so why do they fight so hard against those who are pro-life? They obviously see something wrong with abortion, somewhere deep down they relize that it is not right and no matter how they defend it they still have these feelings and every once in a while these feelings will bubble to the surface. I have to wonder do they even relize it? Are they aware?

So pro-choice people out there what is it? Why do get so offended if someone says you are "pro-abortion" what is it about abortion that doesnt sit right with you? And why do you continue you to defend it when you obviously have bad feelings towards it?


It's a medical procedure that entail risks to women and sometimes result in emotional distress. Saying pro-choice people like "abortion", is like saying people like getting broken bones fixed, or open heart surgery. Anyone who wish for others to get broken bones or heart failure so that they could have the correcting procedure must be a sadist. Most people would advise other people to change their lifestyle choices to avoid those other medical procedure as well, why wouldn't most people, whether pro-life or pro-choice, do the same when it comes to abortion? Who would want surgery to be outlawed just because they don't want people to have to go through it if they don't have to? We recognise that those procedures are sometimes necessary when the unwanted happens (i.e. they broke their bones, or their heart give out), and for the same reasons, we want people to have access to abortion should they face with an unwanted pregnancy.

We fight the pro-life because they want to outlaw a medical procedure that women may want to choose to deal with unwanted pregnancy. If someone comes along and say they think surgery should be outlawed because it's a crime against nature, would you sit by and let that happen?
 
No, we want to outlaw one human hiring a second human to violently kill a third human in aggression.

With your sentiment, you're entirely neglecting that there is another organism, another body, another living member of the species Homo sapiens involved in the situation.
 
No, we want to outlaw one human hiring a second human to violently kill a third human in aggression.

With your sentiment, you're entirely neglecting that there is another organism, another body, another living member of the species Homo sapiens involved in the situation.

LMAO wow you never stop, this is another example of why you arent taken seriously by honest posters. Hyperbole and dishonesty like this will forever keep you as nothing more than entertainment.
 
No, we want to outlaw one human hiring a second human to violently kill a third human in aggression.

With your sentiment, you're entirely neglecting that there is another organism, another body, another living member of the species Homo sapiens involved in the situation.

Don't be coy - You see this coin for what it is? You accuse others of ignoring the baby - and you seem to be doing the same about the mother or even the father.

Yes - it is about 3 people . . . and the fact that 1 or 2 or those 3 people will have to make significant changes and concessions to usher in the 3rd puts their thoughts and feelings very much so into the driver's seat.

Whether you like it or not doesn't matter.
 
LMAO

I could be wrong, shed have to answer for herself but I took some of that post as facetious but again, I ask, do you know anybody that thinks abortion is great? lol theres no negatives to it.

id also like to see theres other "endorsements" and how you define them.

I myself endorse it in a way, as I feel its a choice and right that should be a option.

I havent seen any for a while or I would gladly qoute them, and I have never met anyone in real life with views like these but then again in real life I rarely am just talking to people about abortion. I did find this article though with a quick google search. I found it slighty disturbing.
Abortion is a moral good
 
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