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somebody please correctly define gay!

Perhaps I should have used the words "handicap" or "reproductively challenged" instead of my misuse of the word retardation.

Nope, again those would have been incorrect as well. I have no handicap that excludes me from "normal" physical or mental exercise. My reproductive organs are perfectly intact and function as would any other female reproductive organs. As a matter of fact I've already utilized mine to procreate, so once again you are grasping at all the short straws.

ALL single humans are "reproductively challenged" if you want to play semantics games. No single human can procreate. It takes a sperm and an ovum. Plain and simple.
IVF is utilized by BOTH homosexual and heterosexual females in order to become pregnant. BOTH homosexual and heterosexual males and females who desire children are able to utilize adoption in order to become parents.
BOTH homosexual and heterosexual males and females are able to utilize becoming foster parents to help raise children.
The desire to have or raise children is NOT exclusive to heterosexuals and the insinuation that it is is insulting at best.
 
They were under immense pressure to do so. If one simply recognizes aberrative behavior as a wandering from what is normal behavior, it is self-evident that homosexuality is not normal, unless one prefers to use a dog as a standard rather than a sentient being.

Your use of the term "normal" is purely a legal term not utilized in psychology. Your assertion of the "immense pressure" is mute since these organizations have not reversed their removal of these terms and defend their having done so to this day.



That's about as convincing as me telling you there is nothing harmful to you in not having gay marriage recognized. In other words, from your perspective, it may not seem damaging to another to have a tolerant gay agenda taught in schools and how it's normal and "okay" to be gay. However, if that is your child being taught in that school, it does affect your life. It could make the child more "gay curious" and turn them towards a lifestyle that would not have been chosen (and yes, choice does play a factor in many homosexual lifestyles, evidenced by the many who have since happily gone straight. This doesn't change the fact that many are more or less born gay.)

No, actually. This is where you stray from making sense. NOT having gay marriage legally recognized directly affects me in my present life. It has NO affect on a heterosexual couple who's marriage is legally recognized and does not threaten it in any way.
Your argument is not equally weighted.
Perspective has nothing to do with this at all. If I were a heterosexual and legally married gay marriage recognition or not would have no affect on me. But since I indeed am gay and in a same-sex relationship it directly affects me and my partner.

Your assumption of children being "turned" gay "curious" is simply laughable.




Learning what? The tale of two male lovers that someone thinks should be read in elementary school? The opinions of "experts" who can't supply any proof that gay is not a choice in all circumstances? Learning what you want them to learn instead of the greater majority?

No, learning REALITY that two gay men can and DO have long lasting, monogamous relationships. Dispelling the myths created and proliferated by homophobic and ignorant society about gay relationships.
If the majority is so much "greater" than why is it still so ignorant?




You can't have it both ways. On one hand you acknowledge there is no proof to the exact origins of homosexuality, and then on the other you want a specific set of beliefs about the subject to be the only accepted notions on it. That's not tolerance and is ironically bigoted.[

This is where my example of there being no proof of handedness being inborn comes into play. It is taught in school science classes that it is genetically passed on, but there's no proof as such.
There's only subjective speculation.
So, if you can have that, than my request isn't all that far fetched.


I found the other poster's remarks to very accurate about the lack of real bona-fide studies on the gay lifestyle - they are remarkably absent. Sure there are some ink-blot studies that say we're all the same, but they are easily rejected when you see what the criteria of the tests were.
The search for the gay gene has turned up nothing. If they would just do some mental studies on the area I'm sure that would reveal some remarkable consistencies and lead to new insights.


Your assumption that there have been no mental studies is remarkably ignorant and glaringly so.

I request you refrain from using the term "lifestyle" to define gays and lesbians as I have yet to see a "gay job," "gay car," "gay bank," "gay furniture," "gay tax codes..."

A "lifestyle" a style in which a person lives his/her life, this includes what car they drive, what style of home they live in, what form of career they choose and in which tax bracket they live.
 
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That's correct - they do not describe it as a disorder, mainly stemming from a strong desire to be politically correct and not offend or "psychologically damage" homosexuals by forwarding a negative climate where it is treated as a stigma. I am under no such politically correct obligations, and simply look at the purpose of a penis, and realize that someone who has a compulsion to put it in another man's ass isn't thinking straight. This "not thinking straight" quality is not unique to just them. I have my trouble spots, as does most of the human race.

This is a clip from their website.



Answers to Your Questions For a Better Understanding of Sexual Orientation & Homosexuality

Basically whatever makes money for the APA is how they label things. The thousands of other label make them billions, this subject however is a pandora's box. They also have little success doing anything with it, so have just decided to call it normal and that the people who see something abnormal with it are the ones with a mental affliction.


If all you are doing is looking at the purpose of the penis then would you tell me what is the purpose of the hand? Is it ONLY to utilize tools? Is it not also a portal for ingesting food? Is it not a tool itself of communication? Why is it also used for sexual gratification by BOTH heterosexual and homosexual males AND females?


Your argument is weak.
 
I think people are frankly too sensitive to the idea they might not be playing with a full deck in all areas of their life. If a man likes to sleep with several women all at the same time, lying to each one that he is being faithful, I would say he has a mental disorder as well. If a woman frantically masterbates on the job, at home, in the car, anywhere and everywhere, I would say she has a mental disorder. Etc. It could be another case where a person has to wash their hands every 3 hours, and thinks they are always getting germs. Mental disorder.

It's not that bad of a stigma to have a mental disorder. We all have them, some of us aren't aware enough to know what they are.

So now homosexuals are incapable of long-term, monogamous, healthy relationships?
Haven't we come further along in our understanding of homosexual relationships than to dredge up these harmful, false and just plain wacky stereotypes?

Come on. A homosexual who is in a long-term, monogamous, faithful, healthy relationship is in NO WAY harming ANYONE let alone you, their partner or even his/herself.

Get a grip.
 
I would classify homosexuality as a neurosis.



Neurosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So now all homosexuals suffer from depression or anxiety, depressed feelings, lack of emotions, low self-confidence, and/or emotional instability?

Please, that's generalizing to the ultimate degree.

I suffered from those when I PRETENDED to be heterosexual!
The social stigma forced upon homosexuals to assume their sexual orientation is in anyway wrong, bad, or not normal for them is infact a Neurosis by society. NOT of the homosexual.
 
Ahhhh.... That's a side effect of too much fabuloustrogen.

She went off on me one time because while I am pro-gay, I don't care for the obnoxiously campy "look at me" types. I tried to explain I don't like obnoxious people regardless of their sexual preference but to no avail.
 
She went off on me one time because while I am pro-gay, I don't care for the obnoxiously campy "look at me" types. I tried to explain I don't like obnoxious people regardless of their sexual preference but to no avail.

One of my best friends is gay and he says he hates the obnoxious flamboyent ones as well.

He must be homophobic as well. :lol:
 
WOW you really are completely oblivious to reality aren't you?
There are HUNDREDS of Gay/Lesbian parents raising children who are either adopted, biologically their own, surrogated or concieved through IVF.
There are THOUSANDS of opposite gender couples who actually CHOOSE to not have children!!
Are those couples then "retarded" or have some sort of "mental illness?"

No, of course not.

The plain and simple part is that you're ignoring facts and proliferating ignorance and stupidity. The fact is you have embraced mediocrity as some sort of lofty goal.
How sad.



I'm just saying there should be a clearer medical explanation and definition for the "Reproductively Challanged"............that's all.
 
I'm just saying there should be a clearer medical explanation and definition for the "Reproductively Challanged"............that's all.

It's not a medical condition. They aren't reproductively challenged. Many homosexuals have reproduced.

I'm straight but I haven't reproduced. I haven't tried to.
 
I'm just saying there should be a clearer medical explanation and definition for the "Reproductively Challanged"............that's all.

You still don't have it right...or even close. But as I said before, it is amusing watching you try.
 
Then our mothers are responsible for us gays being gay! Blame your momma! It's her fault, not yours!

Actually it's the mother's body, and it's like a reflex action. She has no control, so I submit she is without blame. :) She's to blame in that she had a defective reproductive system at that moment. But....is it a defect? I think it's naturally occurring, so it's just a variation of the natural.
 
Just the fact that a life long sexual commitment uniting two people of the same sex which does not help proliferate the human race is evidence enough to determine that there are mental or physical defects. A clear form of a type of retardation. Yes I understand you may not have chosen to be that way.

a:The ones that are born this way have a form of retardation

b:The ones that choose this way have a form of mental illness

How more plain and simple could this be?

Is infertility retardation or a mental illness?
 
Wow, didn't even realize that someone responded to my original post. So, a new challenger appears. Lets get it on!!

Most of the following posts will come from the American Psychiatry Association and peer reviewed journals.


This is incorrect. The medical community defines it as a sexual orientation, NOT A VOLUNTARY CHOICE. Please post evidence of your assertion.

Official APA stance
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors.

Source

Very vague isn't it. ;)


Homosexuality remains to be a topic of discussion for mental health professionals because there is still no clear evidence whether or not it is possible to alter a person's sexual orientation

Haldeman, Douglas C. "The Practice and Ethics of Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapy." Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology. 62.2 (1994): 221-227. Cornell U. PsychNet

Gender identity has to do with what gender a person identifies themselves as, and sexual orientation has two do with the sexual preference of the individual; the two are not necessarily correlated.

Stein, T.S. "Homosexuality and Psychiatry." International Encyclopedia of the Social and Behavioral Sciences. 2004. Science Direct. 26 Oct. 2007. <http://www.sciencedirect.com>


Details the beginnings including its initial classification as a disease and its subsequent removal. Includes its current classification.Evolution of the Medical Definition of Homosexuality.

Correction. It is not a lifestyle. It is an orientation, no different from a heterosexual orientation except for how it is played out.

Ok, maybe we're having an issue over the definition. I can understand that many think of the term "lifestyle" as something vague or lewd like swinging or nudism. However, it accompassed a great deal more. I can use the term "orientation" if you want but here is the term I used. They are interchangeable and more than one APA journal has used the term when referring to homosexuality.

A lifestyle is a characteristic bundle of behaviors that makes sense to both others and oneself in a given time and place, including social relations, consumption, entertainment, and dress. The behaviors and practices within lifestyles are a mixture of habits, conventional ways of doing things, and reasoned actions. A lifestyle typically also reflects an individual's attitudes, values or worldview. Therefore, a lifestyle is a means of forging a sense of self and to create cultural symbols that resonate with personal identity. Not all aspects of a lifestyle are entirely voluntaristic. Surrounding social and technical systems can constrain the lifestyle choices available to the individual and the symbols she/he is able to project to others and the self.

Definition Source



There have been no definitive studies that demonstrate the causes of sexual orientation, either straight or gay. There are tons of credible research that show that there is no difference between homo- and hetero- sexuals, psychologically.

Umm, you just reaffirmed my original point and invalidated your first paragraph. Lifestyle includes sexual orientation and gender identity.



The possibility of it being a psychological issue has already been show to be inaccurate, many times, in peer reviewed research. This is no longer an arguable point. What causes sexuality is not known. Hetero- and homo- sexuality are each variations of the same issue.

Correct, in 1973 it was removed from the American Psychological Association listing as a psychological illness. You'll also notice that all literature concerning homosexuality is about discrimination and reparitive therapy.

The APA wants nothing to do with homosexuality and further stances show a neutral standing. A lifestyle or orientation is about all it is will to classify homosexuality under if that. The "we don't know" stance is more commonly seen in public declarations. All research into homosexuality has been suspended and those attempting to research anything into treatment or viewing homosexuality as anything other than a lifestyle/orientation often opposed. Ironically, most if not all APA sponsored research into homosexual relationships (as they would with heterosexual relationships) has also been suspended as a direct result forcing many to freelance and seek funding and accredidation from other institutions if at all.

Political pressure is also exerted from Gay and Lesbian Psychiatry societies who vehemently oppose any form of research from the nationally and globally credited Psychiatric institutions.

Recent example: APA Cancels Forum Under Pressure

Psychiatry is a relatively new science compared to its other peers. Its much more likely to remove itself from politically sensitive issues or be affected by political influence than others. Those that point out that the APA has deviated from "scientific method" when coming to their conclusions are quickly shunned. To date, the APA has not really explained the deviation.

It took almost two decades for the American Psychoanalyst Association issue their neutral stance on the issue as well.

Famous Gay Psychiatrist

Homosexuality was removed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders a year later, and Fryer's speech has been cited as a key factor in persuading the psychiatric community to reach this decision

Scasta DL (2002). John E. Fryer, MD, and the Dr. H. Anonymous Episode. Journal of Gay & Lesbian Psychotherapy Volume: 6 Issue: 4 pp. 73 - 84.


Abnormal Sexual Psychology was my original choice for a Master's thesis although I'm leaning towards criminal atm. Still, this particular question was a great debate in my senior level General Abnormal Psych. class for which our professor gave us a credit. I think he was being lazy since he only had to moderate for 2 full days instead of lecture.
 
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Wow, didn't even realize that someone responded to my original post. So, a new challenger appears. Lets get it on!!

No, I am no challenger...I am the champion. :2razz:

Most of the following posts will come from the American Psychiatry Association and peer reviewed journals.




Official APA stance
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors.

Source

Very vague isn't it. ;)


Homosexuality remains to be a topic of discussion for mental health professionals because there is still no clear evidence whether or not it is possible to alter a person's sexual orientation

Haldeman, Douglas C. "The Practice and Ethics of Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapy." Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology. 62.2 (1994): 221-227. Cornell U. PsychNet

Gender identity has to do with what gender a person identifies themselves as, and sexual orientation has two do with the sexual preference of the individual; the two are not necessarily correlated.

Stein, T.S. "Homosexuality and Psychiatry." International Encyclopedia of the Social and Behavioral Sciences. 2004. Science Direct. 26 Oct. 2007. <ScienceDirect - Home>


Details the beginnings including its initial classification as a disease and its subsequent removal. Includes its current classification.Evolution of the Medical Definition of Homosexuality.



Ok, maybe we're having an issue over the definition. I can understand that many think of the term "lifestyle" as something vague or lewd like swinging or nudism. However, it accompassed a great deal more. I can use the term "orientation" if you want but here is the term I used. They are interchangeable and more than one APA journal has used the term when referring to homosexuality.

A lifestyle is a characteristic bundle of behaviors that makes sense to both others and oneself in a given time and place, including social relations, consumption, entertainment, and dress. The behaviors and practices within lifestyles are a mixture of habits, conventional ways of doing things, and reasoned actions. A lifestyle typically also reflects an individual's attitudes, values or worldview. Therefore, a lifestyle is a means of forging a sense of self and to create cultural symbols that resonate with personal identity. Not all aspects of a lifestyle are entirely voluntaristic. Surrounding social and technical systems can constrain the lifestyle choices available to the individual and the symbols she/he is able to project to others and the self.

Definition Source





Umm, you just reaffirmed my original point and invalidated your first paragraph. Lifestyle includes sexual orientation and gender identity.





Correct, in 1973 it was removed from the American Psychological Association listing as a psychological illness. You'll also notice that all literature concerning homosexuality is about discrimination and reparitive therapy.

The APA wants nothing to do with homosexuality and further stances show a neutral standing. A lifestyle or orientation is about all it is will to classify homosexuality under if that. The "we don't know" stance is more commonly seen in public declarations. All research into homosexuality has been suspended and those attempting to research anything into treatment or viewing homosexuality as anything other than a lifestyle/orientation often opposed. Ironically, most if not all APA sponsored research into homosexual relationships (as they would with heterosexual relationships) has also been suspended as a direct result forcing many to freelance and seek funding and accredidation from other institutions if at all.

Political pressure is also exerted from Gay and Lesbian Psychiatry societies who vehemently oppose any form of research from the nationally and globally credited Psychiatric institutions.

Recent example: APA Cancels Forum Under Pressure

Psychiatry is a relatively new science compared to its other peers. Its much more likely to remove itself from politically sensitive issues or be affected by political influence than others. Those that point out that the APA has deviated from "scientific method" when coming to their conclusions are quickly shunned. To date, the APA has not really explained the deviation.

It took almost two decades for the American Psychoanalyst Association issue their neutral stance on the issue as well.

Famous Gay Psychiatrist

Homosexuality was removed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders a year later, and Fryer's speech has been cited as a key factor in persuading the psychiatric community to reach this decision

Scasta DL (2002). John E. Fryer, MD, and the Dr. H. Anonymous Episode. Journal of Gay & Lesbian Psychotherapy Volume: 6 Issue: 4 pp. 73 - 84.


Abnormal Sexual Psychology was my original choice for a Master's thesis although I'm leaning towards criminal atm. Still, this particular question was a great debate in my senior level General Abnormal Psych. class for which our professor gave us a credit. I think he was being lazy since he only had to moderate for 2 full days instead of lecture.
The inaccuracy of your post is based on it's premise: orientation and lifestyle are not interchangeable.One's sexual orientation is a subset of one's lifestyle. For example, heterosexuals live many different lifestyles that relate to their sexual orientation, such as transvestitism, assorted fetishes, S&M and the like. These are lifestyle choices, whereas the heterosexual orientation is not. This is similar with the homosexual orientation. It is not a lifestyle, How one chooses to behave based on that orientation, is. Re-read the definition you provided. It speaks of behaviors and choices. One's sexuality is neither. How one acts on that sexuality is. That's the difference.

Further, there is nothing in what you posted that contradicts my position on the origins of human sexuality. I've read the articles and, as a practicing therapist for 18+ years, am very familiar with all of the APA literature. As I said, the flaw in your position is equating lifestyle to sexual orientation. Beyond that, I agree with one of your points...we don't know how sexuality is determined...I already said that, and I disagree with what you seem to be alluding to; that the declassification of homosexuality as a disorder was purely political. It wasn't. It was as I said it was.
 
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Just the fact that a life long sexual commitment uniting two people of the same sex which does not help proliferate the human race is evidence enough to determine that there are mental or physical defects. A clear form of a type of retardation. Yes I understand you may not have chosen to be that way.

a:The ones that are born this way have a form of retardation

b:The ones that choose this way have a form of mental illness

How more plain and simple could this be?

:shock: is that opinion common in the USA??
 
:shock: is that opinion common in the USA??

Sadly, it's also quite common over here in Europe, bub. There was a big "debate" over at my sister's house the other day when her neighbour came up with similar tripe as he watched the new gay neighbours move in.
 
Sadly, it's also quite common over here in Europe, bub. There was a big "debate" over at my sister's house the other day when her neighbour came up with similar tripe as he watched the new gay neighbours move in.

I know that there are anti-gay people everywhere, but I've never heard that it was a form of retardation :shock:

But maybe it's because the people I know are not very conservative
 
Gay is when two mommies or daddies love each other very much (or at least get them hot)...
 
Because I doen't want anyone to get mad at me I will use the politically correct term "Reproductively Challenged"

It scares me that more and more people are "reproductively challenged" by choosing to have a lifelong commitment with a partner of the same sex.

I believe there should be studies to determine the causes of this.

If this continues to spread...a generation in the distant future may suddenly all be infected with this syndrome.
This is alarming because then the human race may be headed for extinction.

I don't have anything against anyone with this predicament I just have some concerns.
 
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