• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Some of the world's largest automakers are cutting emissions even as the US rolls back regulation

2. Anti-pollution devices and new fangled technology to improve gas mileage haven't saved a single life.


Really? Oh, I would love to see the reputable studies which support this assertion. :lamo

If you give it even 2 seconds thought, you should be able to figure out why that is a completely ridiculous statement.
 
In general less safe cars do not create, in an economic sense, technical externalities. These externalities are a result of market failure, meaning that a benefit or harm is passes to a third party uncaptured by the market pricing. Typical examples are that the use of any commons (e.g. free fishing grounds, pollution of air and water, use of 'free' ground water resources) wherein their are no discrete property rights established.

We're splitting hairs a bit. The choice of an unsafe car simply isn't IRL captured in health insurance premiums, but they will impact healthcare costs.

A negative externality is a cost that is suffered by a third party as a result of an economic transaction. In a transaction, the producer and consumer are the first and second parties, and third parties include any individual, organisation, property owner, or resource that is indirectly affected.

Whether you think the 'unsafe cars not priced for health insurance' meets the definition, the point remains the same. There is a cost to driving unsafe wrecks that will be born by a third party whose insurance or healthcare costs go up commensurate with the added costs of treating someone with brain damage who in a safer car has a bruised shoulder from the seatbelt or facial bruises and scrapes from the airbag. Insurance COULD account for that risk but does not.

That any market participant, by virtue of participating, has an affect on demand and therefore market price/profit margins is not of this nature - there are no uncaptured benefits or losses. Without government interference car and medical insurance is based on individual and group risk assessment, all of which is captured in a free market. Regardless of whether or not an employer plan adjusts for each an individuals lifestyle, as a whole the costs of risky behavior of a group is captured.

Your argument is essentially saying that by virtue of one's existence it affects "somebody" therefore one is subject the will of all others, and therefore one has not actual right to act on behalf of of one's own well being. Right?

You agree that "one is subject to the will of others" when it comes to pollution, so you're not actually arguing a principle here, or agree with me in principle, just not when to apply this principle.

As for us being "in this reality", that's arguing that the status quo should always be accepted, which I doubt you'd support. In any event, disagreement with CAFE and Safety standards is based on the presumption that "this political reality" is wrong, and should be changed to a new reality closer to that of reduction or elimination.

No, it's arguing that type/safety of car hasn't ever in history been a part of the price of health insurance, and I see no chance at all, 0%, of it becoming part of the underwriting process for medical insurance given how employer health insurance works, because it would then require certifications on that, mandatory notices for new car purchases, etc., nor can it be realistically included for Medicare, Medicaid, VA, CHIP. So given the actual choices, standards for auto safety seem in fact to be good policy- the best of the available alternatives.

First, remember that CAFE standards have been hijacked...

Second, CAFE doesn't do much to prevent CO2 pollution, in part because the better the MPG the more driving is encouraged....

Third, CAFE standards as set by the Obama administration were irrational....

So for all these reasons, CAFE is CRAP.

Data would help make that case. The Unintended Consequences of Ambitious Fuel-economy Standards

The “rebound effect,” he explains, comes when drivers of more fuel-efficient cars decide to take advantage of their lower per-mile fuel costs by driving more than they did in the past Twitter . “Typical estimates of the rebound effect are about 10%,” van Benthem says. That is to say, “people drive about 10% more [miles] when they switch to a vehicle that is twice as fuel efficient.”

That's still a very large net savings in fuel consumed. Next they look at higher CAFE standards on used cars:

The Leakage Effect

What’s the overall impact on emissions? Using a huge database of information about used vehicles, van Benthem and Jacobsen find that “about 15% of the emissions reductions [resulting from higher standards imposed on] new vehicles come back as a result of the increased consumption of fuel on the part of older vehicles still on the road.”

They don't make an overall estimate but my reading is the CAFE standards have about 75% of the impact predicted as if there was no change in behavior. So that's still a significant savings in fuel consumed, emissions, etc.
 

This is a reasonable solution to the backwards thinking current U.S. government that decided to move in the wrong direction on fuel efficiency. What's the government going to do now, mandate that vehicles MUST get crappy mileage?

On the merits, it's technologically feasible to achieve the Obama fuel standards by the date described. The major reason the Trump Admin rolled them back was Obama-hate -- not science and not calls from the industry, that now are going to comply anyway.

One of the factors that potentially fuelled this agreement is the fact that the rest of the world is highly likely to impose higher vehicle emission standards than Mr. Trump does and that would mean that American vehicle manufacturers would end up getting cut out of the vehicle market in almost every country except for the United States of America.

Not only that, but if a consumer is faced with making a choice between:
  1. an American built vehicle of questionable quality that gets 25 mpg; and
  2. a non-American built vehicle of high quality that gets 50 mpg and costs the same as the American built vehicle;

which way do you think that the average consumer is going to jump?
 
Last edited:
One of the factors that potentially fuelled this agreement is the fact that the rest of the world is highly likely to impose higher vehicle emission standards than Mr. Trump does and that would mean that American vehicle manufacturers would end up getting cut out of the vehicle market in almost every country except for the United States of America.

Not only that, but if a consumer is faced with making a choice between:
  1. an American built vehicle of questionable quality that gets 25 mpg; and
  2. a non-American built vehicle of high quality that gets 50 mpg and costs the same as the American built vehicle;

which way do you think that the average consumer is going to jump?

Of course to compensate the US will impose a 25% tariff on all imported cars, and a 25% tax on foreign companies making cars in the US

The two remaining US owned car companies will be as successful as Jaguar and BMC are, with the same high quality those two companies offer/s
 
Of course to compensate the US will impose a 25% tariff on all imported cars, and a 25% tax on foreign companies making cars in the US

The two remaining US owned car companies will be as successful as Jaguar and BMC are, with the same high quality those two companies offer/s
It's what happens when people who think their experts, but know nothing about international trade, are in charge.
 
The whole climate change thing is a lefty conspiracy.

With that as an opening, there is absolutely no way that any rational person could have any (even remote) chance of opening your eyes to the actual data, so I won't even try.

Pulling out of the Paris Accord doesn't mean the US is going backwards in actual performance data, as proven by your OP. States, localities, companies, etc are still doing what they can. They don't need the federal government telling them what to do.

Indeed, there are lots of people who actually pay actual attention to actual data.

And, the fuel standard thing was forcing companies to do some pretty stupid things in order to meet the stricter regulations for fuel standards. We bought a car a couple of years ago that automatically turns off whenever you come to a complete stop and then restarts when you take your foot off the break. This is done for fuel economy but it's a real pain in the ass ...

I feel really terrible that you were inconvenienced.

... and forces us to push the button to turn off the feature so the car doesn't do that.

Absolutely. Someone came along and held a gun to your head to make you do something that you felt like doing.

I suspect many others so the same as we do.

Yep, there are lots of people in the world who put their own personal convenience ahead of everything else.

In other words, the feature is basically totally worthless because we and others turn it off

I guess that that means that it would NOT have been useless if you could NOT turn it off, eh?

... and yet it helped Ford reach it's fuel standard regulation.

Assuming that people will operate machinery as it was designed to be operated when testing the machinery is NOT "cheating" (as your comment implies).

And, the US shouldn't have to pay the bill for third world countries meeting carbon standards.

Indeed, the US shouldn't have to pay for anything, ever! Right?

PS - Did you know that (using 2014 data) the US is the 11[sup]th[/sup] highest PER CAPITA emitter of CO[sub]2[/sub] in the world and is only exceeded by

  1. Qatar - 45.4 (metric tonns/capita) :: GDP/capita US$130,475
  2. Curacao - 37.7 :: US$15,000
  3. Trinidad and Tobago - 34.2 :: US$31,578
  4. Kuwait - 25.2 :: US$67,000
  5. Bahrain - 23.4 :: US$47,527
  6. UAE - 23.3 :: $ US$73,879
  7. Brunei Darussalam - 22.1 :: US$78,836
  8. Saudi Arabia - 19.5 :: US$53,845
  9. Sint Maarten (Dutch part) - 19.5 :: US$66,800
  10. Luxembourg - 17.4 :: US$106,705
    and for reference
  11. United States - 16.5 :: US$62,606

The remaining (roughly) 180 countries all emit less carbon per capita than the US does. That includes all of those "third world countries" that you are griping about having to pay for (except for Curacao).

In fact, there are only 18 countries in the world that exceed 13.2 metric tonnes/capita and that is where the US would be if it reduced its per capita carbon output by 20% and what the (former) target reduction was was only 17%.
 
OK, I guess I misread "free to choose" when you meant "free to choose, from vehicle choices that are regulated/restricted in a way I approve." :roll:

I addressed CAFE and safety standards in the next post, and obviously emissions standards don't impact CO2 which you assume is harmless, so your libertarian principles are just personal preferences.

In BC you are "free to choose" any vehicle that you want to purchase. You can buy, if you want to, a vehicle that is powered by a turbojet engine, has no brakes, and which you steer by bouncing up and down in your seat while twisting your body.

Of course, you can't drive it on any public road unless it has been inspected and certified as being mechanically safe (read as "meets the set safety requirements for vehicles operated on public roads) and you have paid the appropriate insurance premiums (read as "since the vehicle is a 'one off' the insurance company is free to assign it to a unique 'rate group' and charge premiums according to how likely it feels the vehicle is to be involved in a 'los creation' situation").
 
The counter argument is there are costs to making cars safer and more efficient, which makes them more expensive, harms the poorest and most vulnerable by increasing their transportation costs, might encourage people to drive cheaper cars with bad gas mileage and without the latest 8 air bag safety systems for more years. But then the argument is about cost/benefit versus pretending that safer cars have no societal benefit at all, that one side of that cost/benefit analysis is $0.00.

Surprisingly enough, the vehicle purchase cost from the 1950s bears pretty much the same relationship to the vehicle purchase cost today as the gasoline cost from the 1950s bears to the gasoline cost today. Not only that, but that relationship is pretty much the same as the relationship of the average wage from the 1950s to the average wage today.

What HAS changed is the fuel economy of the average vehicle which is now (roughly) double that of the fuel economy of the average vehicle from the 1950s.

In short, in constant dollars, it costs (roughly) the same to purchase a vehicle now as it did in the 1950s, BUT it costs (roughly, and again in constant dollars) half as much to drive it.

In 1950, someone with a family of four and an annual income of $10,000 was doing very well for themselves. In 2019, someone with a family of four and an annual income of $10,000 is well below the poverty line.
 
Right there with you, and that's exactly what I'm looking for. I've got two sheds, a workshop and a tennis court on my property. I want to convert the larger shed to be solar because it's not cost effective to run electricity out to it given the type of wiring I'd need to do so.

PA Uniform Construction Code

DETACHED RESIDENTIAL ACCESSORY BUILDINGS:
The code in Pennsylvania allows for an exception to the UCC Permit
requirements for certain accessory structures that are not attached to a
dwelling. Utility and miscellaneous structures, such as sheds and garages,
which are smaller than 1000 square feet and NOT attached to the
dwelling, do not require a UCC Building Permit.

I interpret that as saying you're free to run pretty much whatever you like out to your shed.
Not saying "don't go solar", just saying that the HV wiring codes for a shed in your state are somewhat relaxed.

You can get away with one or a couple of 220v RV 50 twist lock connectors on the house side, going through outdoor rated 6awg wire cables to a pole on the shed, routed to your outlets on the inside. Split the two 110s on each side off the 220.

Simple Class 2 low voltage wiring from the solar panels and a small stack of storage batteries can run your LED lights.
 
Last edited:
Of course to compensate the US will impose a 25% tariff on all imported cars, and a 25% tax on foreign companies making cars in the US

Quite likely. Of course the American companies which are currently operating (and selling) outside of the United States of America will not be surprised to find out that the other countries immediately institute "countervailing tariffs" and "reciprocal taxation policies". Since those "countervailing tariffs" and "reciprocal taxation policies" won't have the slightest effect on the profitability of those American companies, no one will say anything whatsoever about them.

The two remaining US owned car companies will be as successful as Jaguar and BMC are, with the same high quality those two companies offer/s

I don't know about BMC, but Jaguar has come a long way from the days when it was advisable to purchase them in pairs so that you could have one in the shop and one to drive. I understand that the Brits have even learned what the uses of washers are. (Back in the 60s and 70s, if purchasing a British motorcycle, it was considered a "Good Thing" to pick up a few pounds of assorted washers and lock-washers and put them on the bolts so that the things didn't vibrate apart. [Of course, back in the 60s and 70s, if purchasing a Harley the same applied {and you had to calculate the cost of the bike as $X,XXX.xx for the bike, roughly the same $X,XXX.xx for chrome, and roughly the same $X,XXX.xx to have a real mechanic take the bike apart and put it back together properly}.])
 
PA Uniform Construction Code



I interpret that as saying you're free to run pretty much whatever you like out to your shed.
Not saying "don't go solar", just saying that the HV wiring codes for a shed in your state are somewhat relaxed.

You can get away with one or a couple of 220v RV 50 twist lock connectors on the house side, going through outdoor rated 6awg wire cables to a pole on the shed, routed to your outlets on the inside. Split the two 110s on each side off the 220.

Simple Class 2 low voltage wiring from the solar panels and a small stack of storage batteries can run your LED lights.

Excellent find. I am going to do some more research.

Thanks.
 
Excellent find. I am going to do some more research.

Thanks.

Most states regard small sheds as being somewhat similar to an RV, hence the reason I figure "just go along with the RV 'shore power' wiring" ideas.
Unless you're running monster industrial tools, a pair of 50A 220's should be more than enough for a workshop or shed.

MY off the top of my head guesstimate on house side wiring is based on my own personal experience where a licensed electrician installed a 50A twist lock outlet directly under my outdoor breaker panel for a hundred bucks. He put it right on the side wall of the house and directly next to the breaker panel and I was able to build a 220V outdoor extension cable that I ran out to my shed.

I used J-hooks on the house side and the shed side with heavy zip ties to secure the cable.

1-cat-links.jpg
 
Last edited:
Quite likely. Of course the American companies which are currently operating (and selling) outside of the United States of America will not be surprised to find out that the other countries immediately institute "countervailing tariffs" and "reciprocal taxation policies". Since those "countervailing tariffs" and "reciprocal taxation policies" won't have the slightest effect on the profitability of those American companies, no one will say anything whatsoever about them.



I don't know about BMC, but Jaguar has come a long way from the days when it was advisable to purchase them in pairs so that you could have one in the shop and one to drive. I understand that the Brits have even learned what the uses of washers are. (Back in the 60s and 70s, if purchasing a British motorcycle, it was considered a "Good Thing" to pick up a few pounds of assorted washers and lock-washers and put them on the bolts so that the things didn't vibrate apart. [Of course, back in the 60s and 70s, if purchasing a Harley the same applied {and you had to calculate the cost of the bike as $X,XXX.xx for the bike, roughly the same $X,XXX.xx for chrome, and roughly the same $X,XXX.xx to have a real mechanic take the bike apart and put it back together properly}.])


BMC is pretty much dead, split up and bits and pieces are owned by other companies throughout the world

Jag and Land Rover are owned by Tata and is suffering from high losses currently. Tata did put billions of investments into Jag
 
Back
Top Bottom