• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Soldier Takes Obama to Court Over War on ISIS

Rogue Valley

Exordium and Terminus
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
64,324
Reaction score
48,568
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Soldier Takes Obama to Court Over War on ISIS

A U.S. Army officer stationed in Kuwait argues the president has violated the War Powers Resolution in a case that carries major constitutional implications for the White House....


defense-large.jpg



Related:
The War That Congress Won't Declare

Can the Supreme Court Force Congress to Own the War on ISIS?

Here’s How the Supreme Court Could Make Congress Own the War on ISIS
 

sangha

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
67,218
Reaction score
28,524
Location
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
And the congress, notwithstanding all the republican tough talk, is too scared to declare war on ISIS
 

AliHajiSheik

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 27, 2012
Messages
10,774
Reaction score
3,572
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
And the congress, notwithstanding all the republican tough talk, is too scared to declare war on ISIS

Has there ever been a Congress that has declared war that wasn't requested by a sitting president? I can't find any in my brief research. However, the last declaration of was in June 1942.
 

ludin

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
57,470
Reaction score
14,585
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Has there ever been a Congress that has declared war that wasn't requested by a sitting president? I can't find any in my brief research. However, the last declaration of was in June 1942.

I think the issue is that the president can only legal use limited military action for a few days.
after that he is required to get congressional approval.

Obama has not done that with this one. really all he has to do is petition congress for a declaration
of war on ISIS and he would be fine.

however the soldier is right as well. he is responsible no matter what for any illegal action.
if Obama has not received congressional approval for an extended campaign against ISIS then he needs to do it.
 

sangha

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
67,218
Reaction score
28,524
Location
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Has there ever been a Congress that has declared war that wasn't requested by a sitting president? I can't find any in my brief research. However, the last declaration of was in June 1942.

Obama has asked congress to pass a declaration of war on ISIS
 

OrphanSlug

A sinister place...
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 24, 2011
Messages
24,579
Reaction score
21,499
Location
Atlanta
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Odds are this will not get very far. Between the office of the White House and just about every Congress back to WWII.

We simply do not declare war anymore, and all since have been "conflicts" including the Korean "War," Vietnam, Iraq the first time, Afghanistan, Iraq the second time, and many other engagements of various scopes throughout. It all comes down to how we craft foreign policy with the basic idea that because we are the de facto world's police department we do not have to consider our own Constitution. This is bipartisan, and has been the case generally speaking regardless of whom is in the White House or who controls Congress.

I doubt that the courts will all of a sudden bring a stop to 70-80 ('ish) years of governmental use of our military power.
 

Helix

Administrator
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
73,767
Reaction score
57,168
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
bring all of our troops home, and let the region handle its own problems. the problems of the Middle East cannot be solved by US military force.
 

Grant

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
31,645
Reaction score
7,598
Location
Canada, Costa Rica
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
bring all of our troops home, and let the region handle its own problems. the problems of the Middle East cannot be solved by US military force.
Is it your hope that this war will be confined to the Middle East and not have consequences elsewhere?
 

Helix

Administrator
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
73,767
Reaction score
57,168
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Is it your hope that this war will be confined to the Middle East and not have consequences elsewhere?

one of my hopes is that we'll pull out of the region, forcing the regional powers to squash their religious disagreements and put out the bonfire in their backyard. US involvement has not solved the problem, nor do i think that it can. short of that, i suppose other countries closer to the region will actually have to invest in their militaries when Uncle Sam doesn't step in pro bono every time someone there farts. most importantly, though, we should make replacing oil a top priority.
 

Grant

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
31,645
Reaction score
7,598
Location
Canada, Costa Rica
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
one of my hopes is that we'll pull out of the region, forcing the regional powers to squash their religious disagreements and put out the bonfire in their backyard. US involvement has not solved the problem, nor do i think that it can. short of that, i suppose other countries closer to the region will actually have to invest in their militaries when Uncle Sam doesn't step in pro bono every time someone there farts. most importantly, though, we should make replacing oil a top priority.
So we will depend on other nations in the surrounding areas to defeat islamism and, while that's going on, cut back on our oil consumption. That seems an optimistic POV. The problem is that Islamism is not being confined to the Middle East, though it does serve as source for much of the terror the world is experiencing.
 

Helix

Administrator
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
73,767
Reaction score
57,168
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
So we will depend on other nations in the surrounding areas to defeat islamism and, while that's going on, cut back on our oil consumption. That seems an optimistic POV. The problem is that Islamism is not being confined to the Middle East, though it does serve as source for much of the terror the world is experiencing.

the US can't fix Middle East by acting as regional hegemon. it doesn't work, as is evidenced by the past few decades. even those who argue that this can be done aren't willing to pay more in taxes to fund the effort, so, quite frankly, i don't believe them.
 

Captain Adverse

Classical Liberal Sage
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
16,190
Reaction score
21,326
Location
Mid-West USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
We simply do not declare war anymore, and all since have been "conflicts" including the Korean "War," Vietnam, Iraq the first time, Afghanistan, Iraq the second time, and many other engagements of various scopes throughout.

Therein lies the rub. We should not be engaging in warfare without a declaration of war. Claiming the mantle of "world policeman" is no justification for use of military forces.

There have been a lot of arguments in favor of police actions; usually based on stopping the spread of something whether it be communism (Korea, Vietnam), militant Islam (Afghanistan, Gulf War II, ISIS), or just naked aggression (Gulf War I). In each case the argument claims it will be a short conflict with minimum loss of life...a "quick in-and-out" which can be handled without a major commitment to war requiring a vote of Congress. The historical example was the First Barbary War, where Congress never voted a declaration, they just passed an act allowing the President to deal with government supported piracy with force.

The confusion comes from a lack of understanding about the declaration of war requirement. Our government recognized that American forces could not remain inactive in the face of foreign aggression waiting for a Congressional declaration of war. The President is the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces and has the authority to command an immediate military response to such aggression. Traditionally before the War Power Act of 1973 there was really no clear limit to this "response" which allowed involvement in both Korea and Vietnam.

Part of our problem is that we keep allowing military incursions that claim to be "in-and-out" and end up lasting for years.

I doubt that the courts will all of a sudden bring a stop to 70-80 ('ish) years of governmental use of our military power.

Perhaps, but perhaps not. It is entirely possible that SCOTUS could interpret such "war powers" as unconstitutional and outline more limits on the President's power to commit major military forces without a clear declaration of war.
 

Tigerace117

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
38,061
Reaction score
9,947
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
one of my hopes is that we'll pull out of the region, forcing the regional powers to squash their religious disagreements and put out the bonfire in their backyard. US involvement has not solved the problem, nor do i think that it can. short of that, i suppose other countries closer to the region will actually have to invest in their militaries when Uncle Sam doesn't step in pro bono every time someone there farts. most importantly, though, we should make replacing oil a top priority.

That's giving people too much credit IMO
 

OrphanSlug

A sinister place...
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 24, 2011
Messages
24,579
Reaction score
21,499
Location
Atlanta
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Therein lies the rub. We should not be engaging in warfare without a declaration of war. Claiming the mantle of "world policeman" is no justification for use of military forces.

There have been a lot of arguments in favor of police actions; usually based on stopping the spread of something whether it be communism (Korea, Vietnam), militant Islam (Afghanistan, Gulf War II, ISIS), or just naked aggression (Gulf War I). In each case the argument claims it will be a short conflict with minimum loss of life...a "quick in-and-out" which can be handled without a major commitment to war requiring a vote of Congress. The historical example was the First Barbary War, where Congress never voted a declaration, they just passed an act allowing the President to deal with government supported piracy with force.

The confusion comes from a lack of understanding about the declaration of war requirement. Our government recognized that American forces could not remain inactive in the face of foreign aggression waiting for a Congressional declaration of war. The President is the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces and has the authority to command an immediate military response to such aggression. Traditionally before the War Power Act of 1973 there was really no clear limit to this "response" which allowed involvement in both Korea and Vietnam.

Part of our problem is that we keep allowing military incursions that claim to be "in-and-out" and end up lasting for years.

Perhaps, but perhaps not. It is entirely possible that SCOTUS could interpret such "war powers" as unconstitutional and outline more limits on the President's power to commit major military forces without a clear declaration of war.

The issue is the longevity of the mess various Presidents and associated Congresses have made out of this. SCOTUS *could* do many things with a case like this, but I find it unlikely.
 

Helix

Administrator
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
73,767
Reaction score
57,168
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
That's giving people too much credit IMO

well, call me optimistic. what i won't do is to support policies that have almost no hope of success. we can't fix the Middle East with our military.
 

Grant

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
31,645
Reaction score
7,598
Location
Canada, Costa Rica
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
the US can't fix Middle East by acting as regional hegemon. it doesn't work, as is evidenced by the past few decades. even those who argue that this can be done aren't willing to pay more in taxes to fund the effort, so, quite frankly, i don't believe them.
I tend to agree. The democracies depend far too much on the USA to defend international interests when everyone should be contributing. Now those who haven't helped, especially in Europe, will be paying the price.
 

Bodhisattva

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
98,670
Reaction score
20,930
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
bring all of our troops home, and let the region handle its own problems. the problems of the Middle East cannot be solved by US military force.

If anything... if we leave it will force Europe and others to finally do something about what is, for the most part, their problem.
 

Grant

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
31,645
Reaction score
7,598
Location
Canada, Costa Rica
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Therein lies the rub. We should not be engaging in warfare without a declaration of war.
But a declaration of war against whom? That's the problem.

We are fighting a 21st Century war with 20th Century ideas. All the nuclear weapons man can manufacture cannot do any good now, and the Islamists know it. They are well ahead in the war of ideas and how to defeat major powers.
 

Captain Adverse

Classical Liberal Sage
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
16,190
Reaction score
21,326
Location
Mid-West USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
But a declaration of war against whom? That's the problem.

We are fighting a 21st Century war with 20th Century ideas. All the nuclear weapons man can manufacture cannot do any good now, and the Islamists know it. They are well ahead in the war of ideas and how to defeat major powers.

If you don't like the way our Constitution is set up? Act to amend it.

Meanwhile, do not use MILITARY force to address this problem because MILITARY forces work under the laws of land warfare. This causes more problems than it solves as exemplified in the Middle East today.

If you want to fight organizations that are not "national," then use organizations that are as covert as your enemy is. Allow the CIA to do it job outside the USA and the FBI and State law enforcement to do their jobs inside the USA.
 

Grant

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
31,645
Reaction score
7,598
Location
Canada, Costa Rica
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
If you don't like the way our Constitution is set up? Act to amend it.
That won't solve the problem of who to declare war against.
Meanwhile, do not use MILITARY force to address this problem because MILITARY forces work under the laws of land warfare. This causes more problems than it solves as exemplified in the Middle East today.
There is no need to rule out any method of warfare.
If you want to fight organizations that are not "national," then use organizations that are as covert as your enemy is. Allow the CIA to do it job outside the USA and the FBI and State law enforcement to do their jobs inside the USA.
Yes.
 

JANFU

Not quite there yet, but getting close
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
35,649
Reaction score
12,809
Location
Best Coast Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Is it your hope that this war will be confined to the Middle East and not have consequences elsewhere?

Define elsewhere?
 

Helix

Administrator
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
73,767
Reaction score
57,168
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I tend to agree. The democracies depend far too much on the USA to defend international interests when everyone should be contributing. Now those who haven't helped, especially in Europe, will be paying the price.

that's also true. however, i still don't think that anyone can fix the Middle East other than the Middle East. i think that the best thing that we can do is to encourage regional powers to fix their own region.
 

Thoreau72

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
29,639
Reaction score
7,637
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Has there ever been a Congress that has declared war that wasn't requested by a sitting president? I can't find any in my brief research. However, the last declaration of was in June 1942.

June 1942?

WWII was declared by Congress in December 1941, right after Pearl Harbor.

Captain Nathan Smith is a brave and principled defender of the US Constitution, a patriot in that sense, but after this very politically incorrect stunt he will never be promoted again. He has dared to show that the Emperor Wears No Clothes.
 

AliHajiSheik

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 27, 2012
Messages
10,774
Reaction score
3,572
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
June 1942?

WWII was declared by Congress in December 1941, right after Pearl Harbor.

Captain Nathan Smith is a brave and principled defender of the US Constitution, a patriot in that sense, but after this very politically incorrect stunt he will never be promoted again. He has dared to show that the Emperor Wears No Clothes.

In December 1941 was declared but not on everyone. In June 1942 when the US declared war on Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania was the last declaration actually using the term war.
 
Top Bottom