• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Socialism works until you run out of other people's money.[W:954]

You know American, if all they did was tax the producers and redistribute it to people I'd find that disagreeable
but to run up the debt at an alarming rate with no intention of stopping while at the same time devaluing the currency
acquiring massive real estate holdings thur fanny mae and freddy mac and passing the ACA which has been their goal since the late 40's
I have a deep sense of foreboding, I fear for the future of future generations.
 
vesper said:
20130601_gdc707.png


According to the OECD's latest measurement of well being, they don't seem to agree with you.

As you can see above, this year during an economic downturn with unemployment at unacceptable rates and welfare membership growing, our poorest live better than all of Europe with the exception of the little country of Sweden. The top 10% in Germany is comparable to our upper-middle class while their lowest 10% fair worse than our lowest 10%. The top 10% for Poland, Japan and France can be ranked to our low-middle class and their lowest 10% far below the U.S. Italy's top 10% is equivalent to our low 10%.

Out of all the countries above U.S. came in #1 so I guess that thing called capitalism really does work. :lol:

Daily chart: The examined life | The Economist
Click to expand...

Methinks you need to look again at that chart...there's something that stinks about it. The LICO (low-income cutoff) point is what is often used to determine a nation's real rate of poverty, and Canada's LICO is just above 10%...which would of course include the ENTIRE 10% referenced in your graph. So do you REALLY think that the bottom 10% in CANADA are nearly as well off as the top 10% in France, Italy, and JAPAN? Do you really?

I can see the headlines right now - Canada's people in poverty are living almost as well as the top 10% in JAPAN!!!!

Riiiiiight. That, sir, is why that graph - even though it's from The Economist - doesn't mean what you think it does. Next time, apply the BS test to your reference before you post it.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Methinks you need to look again at that chart...there's something that stinks about it. The LICO (low-income cutoff) point is what is often used to determine a nation's real rate of poverty, and Canada's LICO is just above 10%...which would of course include the ENTIRE 10% referenced in your graph. So do you REALLY think that the bottom 10% in CANADA are nearly as well off as the top 10% in France, Italy, and JAPAN? Do you really?

I can see the headlines right now - Canada's people in poverty are living almost as well as the top 10% in JAPAN!!!!


Riiiiiight. That, sir, is why that graph - even though it's from The Economist - doesn't mean what you think it does. Next time, apply the BS test to your reference before you post it.
Click to expand...

The study uses more than just income, but also includes things like jobs, healthcare, housing, etc. There is a link within the article already posted that explains all the factors. And by the way it's madam to you.
 
Last edited:
trfjr said:
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill
Click to expand...

In many ways, Churchill was a great man and worthy of admiration - that much is beyond question. But he certainly had his flaws, since he was - among other things - a racist:

After the General Election of 1951, Churchill again became Prime Minister. His third government—after the wartime national government and the brief caretaker government of 1945 — would last until his resignation in 1955. During this period, he renewed what he called the "special relationship" between Britain and the United States, and engaged himself in the formation of the post-war order. He tried in vain to manoeuvre the cabinet into restricting West Indian immigration. "Keep England White" was a good slogan, he told the cabinet in January 1955. Ian Gilmour records Churchill saying to him, in 1955, about immigration: "I think it is the most important subject facing this country, but I cannot get any of my ministers to take any notice".

At first, he opposed the creation of England's National Health Service, which was one of the reasons why he was not re-elected in 1946. But he was elected as Prime Minister again from 1951-55...during which time the NHS was still young and vulnerable...and he let it be.

ALL first-world democracies - including America - are SOCIALIZED democracies. It doesn't matter how much you or anyone else hates that word, it's very much a daily part of your life RIGHT NOW and has been so for many years:

(Social Democracy) supports a mixed economy that opposes the excesses of capitalism such as inequality, poverty, and oppression of various groups, while rejecting both a totally free market or a fully planned economy. Common social democratic policies include advocacy of universal social rights to attain universally accessible public services such as education, health care, workers' compensation, and other services, including child care and care for the elderly. Social democracy is connected with the trade union labour movement and supports collective bargaining rights for workers.

Some socialism is a GOOD thing - and you've benefited from it yourself (unless you've lived all your life in a third-world nation). If you'll do something different and actually TALK to those of us on the left, we do NOT want total socialism - we want the 'Goldilocks' way, neither too much nor too little of either socialism or capitalism.

BTW, if you really want to see capitalism unbound, go to China. Capitalism is not a political system - it's an economic system...and while deregulated capitalism (like they have in China) helps an economy to boom, it also results in great misery for the have-nots, since they have much less of an opportunity to rise beyond their station - witness the factories in China that actually installed nets outside their factories to catch people who were jumping out windows to commit suicide.

Capitalism unbound is NOT a good thing. Like everything else (including socialism), neither too much nor too little capitalism is best.
 
AngryOldGuy said:
You know American, if all they did was tax the producers and redistribute it to people I'd find that disagreeable
but to run up the debt at an alarming rate with no intention of stopping while at the same time devaluing the currency
acquiring massive real estate holdings thur fanny mae and freddy mac and passing the ACA which has been their goal since the late 40's
I have a deep sense of foreboding, I fear for the future of future generations.
Click to expand...

Which is pretty much what conservatives have been saying about 'creeping socialism' for the past eighty years.

*yawn*

Here's a clue - someone once said, "eventually, all prophecies come true"...meaning that if you wait long enough, whatever it is that you said would happen, WILL happen. But what the author meant when he said that was that so many people are Absolutely Sure that they know what's going to happen for whatever reason...and even though it might have taken many lifetimes for that thing to happen, then they'll sit back and say, "See, I was right all along"...

...never mind that for many lifetimes, they were flat wrong.

Conservatives have been flat wrong about the danger to America of the New Deal...and they've been wrong about it for several generations now. Sure, America will someday fall - as ALL great nations eventually do - and THEN you'll be able to pat yourselves on the back and say, "See, we were right all along"...never mind all the many generations during which you were flat wrong.
 
vesper said:
The study uses more than just income, but also includes things like jobs, healthcare, housing, etc. There is a link within the article already posted that explains all the factors. And by the way it's madam to you.
Click to expand...

My apologies. Okay, ma'am - do you REALLY believe that the bottom ten percent in Canada are just a smidge worse off than the top ten percent in JAPAN?

Do you really?
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Methinks you need to look again at that chart...there's something that stinks about it. The LICO (low-income cutoff) point is what is often used to determine a nation's real rate of poverty, and Canada's LICO is just above 10%...which would of course include the ENTIRE 10% referenced in your graph. So do you REALLY think that the bottom 10% in CANADA are nearly as well off as the top 10% in France, Italy, and JAPAN? Do you really?

I can see the headlines right now - Canada's people in poverty are living almost as well as the top 10% in JAPAN!!!!

Riiiiiight. That, sir, is why that graph - even though it's from The Economist - doesn't mean what you think it does. Next time, apply the BS test to your reference before you post it.
Click to expand...

Earth to Glen, what many liberals like yourself don't realize is moving toward your reality of what's fair in life means giving up your right to be human. Liberals are ok with being treated like cattle, other like myself prefer to be in control of our lives.
 
Frankly I'm beginning to admire these liberal progressive socialist communists
it must take a massive amount of effort to deny reality on a day by day week by week month by month year on year decade over decade basis.

Then I think back on my short time here, the half a century trend I've witnessed first hand. Resistance is futile you will be assimilated. Today anyone under thirty
can't be expected to have a clue, they have been immersed in this all their lives, chances are their parents the teachers in their schools were all whether they knew it or not consciously or unconsciously getting further and further away from what this country was originally founded on. Hell now we can look back and see that the 'Most trusted man in America' that I watched on the black n white TV in the kitchen (The colour one was in the living room) five nights a week while eating dinner was a straight up commie sympathizer. His speech DURING the Tet offensive can be seen for what it was. Watergate, Stagflation, a 20% plus fed fund intrest rate that gave us the S & L crisis, The fall of the Shah America held hostage for 444 days, Operation Eagle Claw, Amnesty for illegals, the 86 'tax reform which lead directly to Black Monday, the 93 tax hikes, somebody exploded something in a garage in some tower building in NYC, a bj is not sex, lob a cruise missile at Iraq on the eve of the impeachment hearings, some boat named cole got a hole in it while in port in yemen, I pulled every last dime I had in the stock market June 2nd 2000, that building that had that thing in the garage fell down when a plane hit it, shock n awe, four dollar a gallon gasoline, if we don't pass tarrp in 24 hours the world will end, the new normal, Putin saves Syria...

All theatre for your entertainment, folks we've passed the point of no return, there's no choice but to embrace the Brave New World
 
AngryOldGuy said:
Frankly I'm beginning to admire these liberal progressive socialist communists
it must take a massive amount of effort to deny reality on a day by day week by week month by month year on year decade over decade basis.

Then I think back on my short time here, the half a century trend I've witnessed first hand. Resistance is futile you will be assimilated. Today anyone under thirty
can't be expected to have a clue, they have been immersed in this all their lives, chances are their parents the teachers in their schools were all whether they knew it or not consciously or unconsciously getting further and further away from what this country was originally founded on. Hell now we can look back and see that the 'Most trusted man in America' that I watched on the black n white TV in the kitchen (The colour one was in the living room) five nights a week while eating dinner was a straight up commie sympathizer. His speech DURING the Tet offensive can be seen for what it was. Watergate, Stagflation, a 20% plus fed fund intrest rate that gave us the S & L crisis, The fall of the Shah America held hostage for 444 days, Operation Eagle Claw, Amnesty for illegals, the 86 'tax reform which lead directly to Black Monday, the 93 tax hikes, somebody exploded something in a garage in some tower building in NYC, a bj is not sex, lob a cruise missile at Iraq on the eve of the impeachment hearings, some boat named cole got a hole in it while in port in yemen, I pulled every last dime I had in the stock market June 2nd 2000, that building that had that thing in the garage fell down when a plane hit it, shock n awe, four dollar a gallon gasoline, if we don't pass tarrp in 24 hours the world will end, the new normal, Putin saves Syria...

All theatre for your entertainment, folks we've passed the point of no return, there's no choice but to embrace the Brave New World
Click to expand...


There is hope, old guy.
They need us to pay for their socialist dreams (nightmares).
DEFUND THEM!

They can scream, but will they cough up and pay the bill without us?
Don't THINK so. :D
 
Rocketman said:
Earth to Glen, what many liberals like yourself don't realize is moving toward your reality of what's fair in life means giving up your right to be human. Liberals are ok with being treated like cattle, other like myself prefer to be in control of our lives.
Click to expand...

Earth to Rocketman - what many conservatives don't like is moving towards YOUR reality of what's fair in life means giving up YOUR standard of living in a modern, first-world nation. Conservatives are OK with being treated like idiots - but others like myself realize that many hands make light work.
 
yobarnacle said:
There is hope, old guy.
They need us to pay for their socialist dreams (nightmares).
DEFUND THEM!

They can scream, but will they cough up and pay the bill without us?
Don't THINK so. :D
Click to expand...

Actually, if the red states would go ahead and secede, we in blue states would be even better able to pay for the socialist programs that we want, since right now most red states take in more in federal tax spending than they pay out in taxes.

And I'll ask you once more - WHY is it that if socialism's SO bad, that for the past half-century (actually, 80 years in the case of America) socialist programs have been a big part of our economies...and today ALL of the first-world democracies are socialized democracies - WHY is it that if socialism's SO bad, such a sure-fire recipe for economic doom, WHY is it that ALL the first-world democracies are SOCIALIZED democracies?

WHY are the socialized first-world democracies are still the most successful on the planet (even given the current struggles of some)...yet NO nation that works on conservative principles has been able to rise above third-world status in the modern world?

WHY are socialist democracies successful, but conservative nations are not?

WHY?
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Earth to Rocketman - what many conservatives don't like is moving towards YOUR reality of what's fair in life means giving up YOUR standard of living in a modern, first-world nation. Conservatives are OK with being treated like idiots - but others like myself realize that many hands make light work.
Click to expand...

Ask long as they aren't yours, Fukk your reality
 
He can just stay right here and watch vast swaths of this country's economy reduced to rubble.

21c8a4w.jpg
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Okay - then go to a third-world country where you can see how things work out with weak governments, low effective taxes, and little or no regulation.
Click to expand...

I'll just stay here and fight off people like you trying to turn our country into one
 
Rocketman said:
I'll just stay here and fight off people like you trying to turn our country into one
Click to expand...

No, I am a progressive because I want our nation to STAY as a first-world nation. AGAIN, guy - WHY is it that ALL first-world nations are socialized democracies, and NO nations that work like you prefer are first-world nations? WHY, guy?

C'mon, now - you know that market rules work a lot like evolution - the businesses or species (or systems) that are strongest and most adaptable will be the most successful...and the simple fact that ALL first-world democracies are socialized democracies shows that social democracy is the strongest and most adaptable. The fact that YOU don't want to accept the obvious results can't change anything.
 
You want our nation to 'STAY as a first-world nation' by adopting a philosophy that has proven time and again
to result in tyranny and poverty and you call us crazy? good jerb commie man!
 
Glen Contrarian said:
No, I am a progressive because I want our nation to STAY as a first-world nation. AGAIN, guy - WHY is it that ALL first-world nations are socialized democracies, and NO nations that work like you prefer are first-world nations? WHY, guy?

C'mon, now - you know that market rules work a lot like evolution - the businesses or species (or systems) that are strongest and most adaptable will be the most successful...and the simple fact that ALL first-world democracies are socialized democracies shows that social democracy is the strongest and most adaptable. The fact that YOU don't want to accept the obvious results can't change anything.
Click to expand...

You can't name one where the people are treated like cattle, no thanks. Why don't you progress your ass over to one if you are too weak to take care of yourself
 
Rocketman said:
You can't name one where the people are treated like cattle, no thanks. Why don't you progress your ass over to one if you are too weak to take care of yourself
Click to expand...

Y'know, if you ever actually went to the other first-world nations, you'd find that NO, they aren't "treated like cattle". But if you go to third-world nations where the people (even CHILDREN) work like dogs for three or four dollars a day - and I've been there and seen it - they ARE treated like cattle.

What you're doing is making throwaway accusations without the least shred of actual first-hand knowledge of what's going on outside our borders.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Y'know, if you ever actually went to the other first-world nations, you'd find that NO, they aren't "treated like cattle". But if you go to third-world nations where the people (even CHILDREN) work like dogs for three or four dollars a day - and I've been there and seen it - they ARE treated like cattle.

What you're doing is making throwaway accusations without the least shred of actual first-hand knowledge of what's going on outside our borders.
Click to expand...

England- Cattle, Germany- Cattle, Romania- Cattle, Canada- cattle, France-Cattle
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom