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Trajan Octavian Titus said:It has come to my attention that the Communists on this sight do not even understand that their ideology is a kin to fascism and that they are two simply two opposite sides on the same left wing coin so here's a good article on the subject:
http://www.lawrence.edu/sorg/objectivism/socfasc.html
Gardener said:What a silly article.
I can't imagine how anybody could get past their statement that socialism abolishes private property without giggling at least a little bit. This, after they listed the U.K. and Sweden as examples of socialist countries.
Kelzie said:Seriously. That article was written by a student who is a member of a group that supports Ann Rand. Besides the fact that that is one of the saddest clubs I have ever heard of, they are in no way objective like they claim. Any freshmen poly sci student could tell you the difference between fascism and socialism if you asked.
True enough: We can put socialism and fascism on a table and stare at them all we like, and all we may see will be differences. What is required to go beyond this is to widen our context of knowledge. For instance, let's say we draw two geometrical figures on the chalkboard: a scalene and an isosceles. If we focus merely on these two concretes, without widening our context, we will see nothing but difference. The two triangles have different angles, different side lengths, different locations, different sizes. Now imagine that we introduce a foil: We draw a square on the board. The difference between the first two triangles is still there, but is made insignificant by the even greater difference between the triangles, on the one hand, and the square on the other. This process of differentiation allows us to see the triangles as similar. If we are able to isolate an essential characteristic of the group (a difference bewteen the triangles and squares which explains all or most of the other differences between them), we can then integrate this group of similars into a single mental unit, uniting it by a common definition, i.e., forming a concept.(2)
We can treat social systems in the same way in which we treat geometical figures. As we observed before, there are probably innumerable differences between socialism and fascism. But what happens if we introduce a foil here, as well? Let's imagine that we introduce a third type of social system. Rather than having society control all property, and rather than having dictatorship in one form or another, we introduce a system in which individuals are free to follow the dictates of their own mind. Rather than having a system in which the choice is between the abridgment of political freedom or the abridgment of economic freedom, we introduce one in which no one's freedom is to be abridged. In short, we introduce capitalism : the social system in which all property is privately owned, and the government's function is restricted to the protection of individual rights.
Once we remember the possibility of the existence of such a system, the differences between socialism and fascism become trivial, superficial and, above all, non-essential. Differentiation of socialism and fascism from capitalism permits the recognition of their similarity. They do differ from each other, but only in the way in which the scalene and the isosceles differ from each other: in degree, but not in kind. Socialism and fascism are each forms of statism, forms of government in which the government is given complete or extensive control over the lives of its citizens.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:What are you talking about socialism in the Marxist form does abolish private property that's one of their main tennants.
Gardener said:For future reference, the word you are looking for is tenet rather than tennant.
As to your reference to Marxism, you do know this is not the only form of socialism, don't you? It is just one type of socialism, but is by no means the only one, and so a person cannot generalize about the properties of socialism as a whole based upon the properties of just one of its forms when those properties differ. I figured the mention of Sweden and the U.K. might ring a bell with you, but obviously it didn't, so let me clue you in since you didn't know -- people can certainly own property in both those places.
Here is an article that covers some of the basic points in regards to socialism. Not all socialism is communism despite the way you use the terms interchangeably.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
Vandeervecken said:That was indeed an essay written by a student member of an Objectivst Club. Hardly a reputable source material for defining political philosophies.
Here is a definition from a relevant source:
Fascism: The political system of the extreme right, which incorporates the principles of the leader (dictator), a one party state, totalitarian regimentation of economic and social activity and the arbitrary exercise of absolute power by the regime. After 1922, Benito Mussolini fashioned the fascist prototype in Italy and was emulated in the 1930's by Adolf Hitler in Germany, Francisco Franco in Spain, and Juan Perón in Argentina. Fascism's glorification of the leader makes the system vulnerable and unstable, and poses a serious problem of succession. Unlike communism, fascism retains the private ownership of land and capitol but most economic activity is controlled and regimented by the state through a system of national socialism.
THE AMERICAN POLITICAL DICTIONARY Plano & Greenberg (C)1967 Holt, Reinhert & Winston Publishers L.O.C. Card Number 67-11816
No matter how you right wingers try and dance around it, Fascism is a philosophy of the right.
Those are characteristics of left wing governments not that of the right.which incorporates the principles of the leader (dictator), a one party state, totalitarian regimentation of economic and social activity and the arbitrary exercise of absolute power by the regime.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:, the term National Socialism has socialism in the fuc/king title for Christ's sakes.
Vandeervecken said:Communist China calls itself, The People's Republic of China. Is it a republic? Is it run by the people?
North Korea calls itself, The People's Democratic Republic of Korea. Is it democratic? Is it a republic? Do the people run it?
I note you are already reduced to profanity. Sad.
I have learned a great deal from Marxism, as I do not hesitate to admit. The difference between them and myself is that I have really put into practice what these peddlers and penpushers have timidly begun...I had only to develop logically what Social Democracy repeatedly failed in because of its attempt to realize its evolution within the framework of democracy. National Socialism is what Marxism might have been if it could have broken its absurd and artificial ties with the democratic order.
(Hitler to Rauschning, The Voice of Destruction, pg. 186).
Vandeervecken said:When in trouble or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.
I've offered the definition from a reputable and relevant to the topic source material. Got anything to rebut it?
Yes, or no?
Lenin's famous essay, "Left-wing Communism, an infantile disorder" shows that Lenin himself shared the judgement that he was a Right-wing sort of Marxist. Mussolini was somewhat further Right again, of course, but both were to the Right only WITHIN the overall far-Left camp of the day.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:In fascism you have state control of labor and Capital.
In communism you have state control of labor and Capital.
In fascism you have state control of eductation.
In communism you have state control of eductation.
In fascism you have a dictator.
In communism you have a dictator.
Hitler and Mussolini were socialists Fascism is a product of the left and in no way resembles anything from a libertarian republican right wing social structure.
Vandeervecken said:Obviously you do not know what communism is if you think it demands a dictator.
\
I;ve posted the experts definition, you have yet to offer anything but obviously uninformed opinion to try and rebut it. You lose.
The exact same things can be said for Communism.Fascism: The political system of the extreme right, which incorporates the principles of the leader (dictator), a one party state, totalitarian regimentation of economic and social activity and the arbitrary exercise of absolute power by the regime.
Mussolini started out as a Marxist, your lack of historical knowledge on the subject is probably the whole problem here.After 1922, Benito Mussolini fashioned the fascist prototype in Italy and was emulated in the 1930's by Adolf Hitler in Germany, Francisco Franco in Spain, and Juan Perón in Argentina. Fascism's glorification of the leader makes the system vulnerable and unstable, and poses a serious problem of succession.
While you may retain private property the use for that property is still dictated by the state through the loss of political freedom one loses their economic freedom as well.Unlike communism, fascism retains the private ownership of land and capitol but most economic activity is controlled and regimented by the state through a system of national socialism.
THE AMERICAN POLITICAL DICTIONARY Plano & Greenberg (C)1967 Holt, Reinhert & Winston Publishers L.O.C. Card Number 67-11816
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Communism must have a dictator without one who would determine the so called greater good?
Your definition is uninformed and wrong and I have pointed out to you that your definition could easily be exchanged for that of communism.
When studying an entire social structure a five line definition amounts to nothing.
Read this article and get back to me:
http://www.geocities.com/jonjayray/musso.html
Vandeervecken said:The proletariat decides itself in communism. LOL
Again you try and rebut a reputable source material with some putz's website. Doesn't work.
I invite you to find ANY reputable Political Science text that calls Fascism anything but an extreme right wing philosophy.
It's mine too. I'm better, you obviously didn't study.You won't, I know. Political Science was my field of study.
You obviously have never read Marx either if you think Communism requires a dictator. LOL. God is there anything more amusing than aggressive ignorance?
Fascism: The political system of the extreme right,
The exact same things can be said for Communism.which incorporates the principles of the leader (dictator), a one party state, totalitarian regimentation of economic and social activity and the arbitrary exercise of absolute power by the regime.
Mussolini started out as a Marxist, your lack of historical knowledge on the subject is probably the whole problem here.After 1922, Benito Mussolini fashioned the fascist prototype in Italy and was emulated in the 1930's by Adolf Hitler in Germany, Francisco Franco in Spain, and Juan Perón in Argentina. Fascism's glorification of the leader makes the system vulnerable and unstable, and poses a serious problem of succession.
While you may retain private property the use for that property is still dictated by the state through the loss of political freedom one loses their economic freedom as well.Unlike communism, fascism retains the private ownership of land and capitol but most economic activity is controlled and regimented by the state through a system of national socialism.
THE AMERICAN POLITICAL DICTIONARY Plano & Greenberg (C)1967 Holt, Reinhert & Winston Publishers L.O.C. Card Number 67-11816
Trajan Octavian Titus said:For a Communist state to succeed how would it be determined who gets what without a dictator to tell them what the greater good is? Both fascism and communism reject economic neo-liberalist ideals in favor of a state regulated economy.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:You're calling a P.H.D. a putz? Are you a P.H.D.?
Trajan Octavian Titus said:First off if your field of study was Poli Sci you obviously failed to understand the concept of empirical political analysis and taking historical facts and forming an objective idea rather than a subjective one based upon a single 6 line definition, your analysis of this subject is laughable. My question to you is what distinguishes Fascism from Communism? The differences are negligable at best.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:I have extensively studied pre-neoliberalist Latin America, The Soviet Union, and Fascist Europe, and their social and economic structures are virtually indistinguishable in almost every way.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:It's mine two. I'm better, you obviously didn't study.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:I have read Marx I have read the entire Communist manifesto and Marx makes one little comment regarding the whithering away of the state Fascism can only be considered Right wing in the context of a left wing political box from which liberalist Capitalism is absent.
Vandeervecken said:If you had actually read the Communist Manifesto as you claim, you'd know the answer to this one.
Anyone whose publishing credits amount to a free Geo-cities page is not to be taken seriously.
First you call it a 5 line definition, then you call it a 6 line one. On my monitor here it is a 9 line one. Irrelevant though. It is the accepted definition in political science and stands unrebutted by you.
Then you haven;t really studied.
I can define the basic terms like communism and fascism, puts me ahead of you.
LOL, this is funny. You claim Marx discusses Fascism in the Communist Manifesto? My goodness. How on earth we he discuss a political philosophy that would not exist until half a century after his death in his writings?
Me said:I have read Marx I have read the entire Communist manifesto and Marx makes one little comment regarding the whithering away of the state Fascism can only be considered Right wing in the context of a left wing political box from which liberalist Capitalism is absent.
It was not a term, or system that had yet been invented when the Communist Manifesto was written, or even at any point in the life of Karl Marx. And you accuse me of not studying? Goodness gracious what a horrible error destroying all your credibility on this subject you just made. Now try and run away from it. I:lol: am laughing at you :Oopsie right now so hard I am afraid I will wake the neighbors. :rofl
Fascism: The political system of the extreme right,
which incorporates the principles of the leader (dictator), a one party state, totalitarian regimentation of economic and social activity and the arbitrary exercise of absolute power by the regime.
After 1922, Benito Mussolini fashioned the fascist prototype in Italy and was emulated in the 1930's by Adolf Hitler in Germany, Francisco Franco in Spain, and Juan Perón in Argentina. Fascism's glorification of the leader makes the system vulnerable and unstable, and poses a serious problem of succession.
Unlike communism, fascism retains the private ownership of land and capitol but most economic activity is controlled and regimented by the state through a system of national socialism.
THE AMERICAN POLITICAL DICTIONARY Plano & Greenberg (C)1967 Holt, Reinhert & Winston Publishers L.O.C. Card Number 67-11816
Australianlibertarian said:Communism and fascims are very similar indeed.
Remeber that National socialists' believe(ed) in social democractic principles, but only for ayran peoples. Whilst communists believe in socialism for all.
Hitler despised communism, not because of it's policies, but for what he saw as so called "Jewish Bolshevism".
Stalin killed millions of people, he killed the enemies of the people. Anyone that was critical of communist ideology, or Stalin himself.
Hitler killed millions of people, he killed the enemies of the German people. Anyone that was seen as a threat to purity of the German race, or the success of National Socialism.
Now if you start to break down the fact that both Communist and Facist regimes kill people, then you see that they are in fact very similar.
Nazis differ from communists, because they belief in socialism only for ayrans, and not non-ayrans. They also believe in some private property, but to some extent is regulated by the state.
Point is both Nazism, and Communism are the same part of the left.
I.e People that believe in the all powerfull state, and the need for state control and power. It's just that Nazis are leftists that don't like people that share the same amount of melanin as they do.
No, they are pretty much opposites.Communism and fascims are very similar indeed.
Nazis aren't socialists, they are fascists. Also Communists want communism, which they think is the society after socialism.Remeber that National socialists' believe(ed) in social democractic principles, but only for ayran peoples. Whilst communists believe in socialism for all.
I'll agree with this.Hitler despised communism, not because of it's policies, but for what he saw as so called "Jewish Bolshevism".
Stalin didn't kill "enemies of the people", he killed enemies of himself. Also I know some of Stalin's theories and actions, and I find few of them are in line with either Marxism, socialism, or communism. E.g. "socialism in one country", basically believes in an isolated, nationalistic state, whereas communists and Marxists are Internationalists.Stalin killed millions of people, he killed the enemies of the people. Anyone that was critical of communist ideology, or Stalin himself.
He also didn't kill "enemies of the people", he killed anyone he thought was "politically undesirable" usually as in communists and socialists. And anyone who was "racially inferior", such as Jews and Gypsies.Hitler killed millions of people, he killed the enemies of the German people. Anyone that was seen as a threat to purity of the German race, or the success of National Socialism.
Communism hasn't existed. And most "communist regimes" I find had actually little to do with communist ideology itself.Now if you start to break down the fact that both Communist and Facist regimes kill people, then you see that they are in fact very similar.
Nazis aren't socialists, despite what they claim they are.Nazis differ from communists, because they belief in socialism only for ayrans
No dude, I find they are opposites.Point is both Nazism, and Communism are the same part of the left.
Such as fascists and NazisI.e People that believe in the all powerfull state
Such as fascists and Nazisand the need for state control and power
Comrade Brian said:Trojan, it appears you are still making you dumb claim that you made in the "Excellent Political Quiz" thread. Except there a Nazi and 2 Communists were telling you that you are wrong. Now would you quit doing this sort of idiocy, the only thing that's going to happen is your ass getting whooped. Nobody will really believe this.
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