Socialism and Me!

[Rhadamanthus]

I think the defenition of fascism is:
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

It seems to me that this does sort of imply that socialism is included in fascism, however fascism is not necessarily included in socialism. (If this seems totaly off topic and does not make any sense i'm sorry)

A democracy that has a complete socialist economy dosn't seem as if it would be practical. However if a country had some aspects of its economy socialist (as in canada) might that be more successful? It seems to have worked well with the canadian health care system.

 

[Comrade Brian]

We were just talking about you. Why? Kidding. :mrgreen: He made me a sig. Pretty cool, eh?

Crap. That makes me jealous, I wish I had a cool signature.

 

[Herophant]

Why do people consider socialism as less democratic than capitalism? Democracy is the rule by the people. The people are usually – at least in modern times - considered to be everyone in the nation with a specific age.

So if the majority of the people want to live in a nation were their economy isn’t being ruled by “the invisible hand” of the free marked, therefore decide how the economic surplus should be distributed is that undemocratic?

 

[Kandahar]

Why do people consider socialism as less democratic than capitalism? Democracy is the rule by the people. The people are usually – at least in modern times - considered to be everyone in the nation with a specific age.

So if the majority of the people want to live in a nation were their economy isn’t being ruled by “the invisible hand” of the free marked, therefore decide how the economic surplus should be distributed is that undemocratic?

It doesn't go against the concept of democracy. But it does go against the concepts of individual liberty and minority rights, which are even more important than democracy.

 

[Connecticutter]

Yes - to expand upon what Kandahar said. I think that under idealistic democratic socialism, you must ultimately make your decisions based upon what a majority of people want you to do, whereas under capitalism you have a lot more wiggle room to make your own decisions. Of course when socialism is actaully implemented, the job of controlling these resources gets placed into the hands of largely unaccountable boards and commitees.

Let's take the example of separation of church and state.

Under a free-market system, a religious group can freely come together and build their church on land that they purchase - that's fairly simple.

It would require a more lengthy post to describe what happens under socialism, but basically the government would have to apportion capital for religious purposes (which already destroys the barrier between church and state) and religious groups would get into heated political battles over the land because there is no market mechanism for distribution.

 

[Lucidthots]

The question is why do the Big Banks and ultra weralthy Capitalists support Socialism?

Answer: Socialism enables the ultra wealthy to establish a Totalitarian Monopoly.

What happens is the ultra-wealthy sponsor the Socialist movements toi drive the ultra-poor into the Socialist State which provides greater Centralized Control of wealth.

The Super Wealthy have always sponsored the Socialist, Communist, Bolshevik Movement.

What you end up with is the poorest people in the world handing over more control to the ultra-wealthy and the middle Class is put in a "death grip" because it is their pay which is taxed to death and redistributed, only it is always ditributed from the Worker to the Bankers in order to pay the principle and interest on the loans required to support the Welfare State...or in worst case scenario the ongoing wars.

Below J.D.Rockefeller III presents a check for 8,500,000.00 million dollars to Trygve Lie, The First Sec. Gen of the U.N. which was used to establish the U.N.'s Manhattan Headquaters; Rocky's neighborhood.

Mr. Lie was an outright Communist who had ties to Lenin and was a personal friend of Leon Trotsky (Bronstein).

Mr. Lie gave Trotsky (Bronstein), sanctuary in Norway when exiled from the Soviet Empire under Stalin.

Also, Here is David Rockefeller of Chase Bank meeting with Krushchev.

David Rockefeller was financing The Soviet Nuclear Arms build up which the Soviets used to threaten America and equally drive America into debt to Rockefeller for Nukes and other Cold War weapons of mass Destruction.

Rocky Controls our Federal Reserve Bank, the UN and the World Bank/IMF, most of the world's Oil, Food and Drug distribution through a network of Corporate/Government Monopolies. It is Rockefeller as owner of the World Bank who determines the appointments by our President to the Office of World Bank President....currently Paul Wolfowitz.

Henry Kissinger--shown here with Nelson Rockefeller has served the personal interests of the Rockefeller family in Washington since the Johnson Administration and is to this day a direct representative of David Rockefeller's Federal and International Interests.

Other Organizations associated with the Rockefeller family are the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trialateral Commission, and the Bilderberg Group.

 

[Comrade Brian]

The question is why do the Big Banks and ultra weralthy Capitalists support Socialism?

Answer: Socialism enables the ultra wealthy to establish a Totalitarian Monopoly.

[/B]

Thats no answer!

You have confused Stalinism and socialism! And anyways we already have a totalitarian monopoly here in the good ol' US. What I mean is that virtually most things in the country are privately owned, only those who own have a say what to do, so you would have in a sense a totalitarian dictatorship of capital-owners of the economy. And also politically whoever has more campaign financing WINS! So the winning candidates must be nice to corporations to get power.

And anyways the socialist movement is against ultra-wealthy individuals more than almost anything else( as in throwing them out of power can bring more equality, and democracy too). So why do you claim the ones in power are financing a rather large movement to overthrow themselves? Its complete idiocy! No one is that stupid!

And the rest of your post had no backup/source.

 

[Herophant]

It doesn't go against the concept of democracy. But it does go against the concepts of individual liberty and minority rights, which are even more important than democracy.

Yes but socialism as an element in an economic system can’t be argued to hurt any other right than property right. The right to property can be argued one way or the other; it all comes down to one question.

What is the basic moral value of society?

If property right is worth more than having people not living in poverty, then socialism is wrong.

I am not arguing total socialism however democratic that may be, but I do argue against total capitalism which may be freedom but sure ain`t democratic.

Total freedom is anarchy

 

[128shot]

and anarchy is totally voluntary. Anarchy usually imposes the idea of no government, but many anarchists believe its a volunteer government, where responsible people get togethor to make decisions for their particular group, and its often considered to be guided by natural laws, and that you have freedom in action and not in paper. Visa versa per say of what the consitution is, its freedom in writing, and hopefully freedom in practice.


which, is a good idea if everyone understands exactly what they're getting into.

 

[Comrade Brian]

Yes, anarchy is pretty good, but it also depends on what social system would be tied with it. Is it was capitalism, there would be like never-ending conflict, but that in itself would bring change and those changes may stop it. Because one of the main things that has stopped people from changing the current social/economic system has been government.

And 128shot, isn't your birthday in two days?

 

[128shot]

Certainly is..


whooohooo!

 

[Lucidthots]

Thats no answer!

You have confused Stalinism and socialism! And anyways we already have a totalitarian monopoly here in the good ol' US. What I mean is that virtually most things in the country are privately owned, only those who own have a say what to do, so you would have in a sense a totalitarian dictatorship of capital-owners of the economy. And also politically whoever has more campaign financing WINS! So the winning candidates must be nice to corporations to get power.

And anyways the socialist movement is against ultra-wealthy individuals more than almost anything else( as in throwing them out of power can bring more equality, and democracy too). So why do you claim the ones in power are financing a rather large movement to overthrow themselves? Its complete idiocy! No one is that stupid!

And the rest of your post had no backup/source.

Commrade Brian---you are so naive about international Politics.

The Big Banks and other industrialists financed the Bolshevik and subsequent Socialist revolutions since the begining.

Rockefeller, Warburg, Morgan, Rothschild, Carnegie

This is why "Socialism/Statism" has been so Globally pervasive.

Here are some pictures of Media elites at a banquet with David Rockefeller George Soros and others:

http://www.carnegie.org/sub/awardees/album-low.html

Also here is a documentary video called Money Masters which explains how the International Banks finance the Socialist revolution in order to enslave the world through a monopoly on the issuance of money.

Free Download here:

Part 2 70 MB
Part1 89 MB

Download Part 1 first to watch from the begining.

http://www.archive.org/details/MoneyMasters

 

[Comrade Brian]

Commrade Brian---you are so naive about international Politics.

The Big Banks and other industrialists financed the Bolshevik and subsequent Socialist revolutions since the begining.

Rockefeller, Warburg, Morgan, Rothschild, Carnegie

This is why "Socialism/Statism" has been so Globally pervasive.

Here are some pictures of Media elites at a banquet with David Rockefeller George Soros and others:

http://www.carnegie.org/sub/awardees/album-low.html

Also here is a documentary video called Money Masters which explains how the International Banks finance the Socialist revolution in order to enslave the world through a monopoly on the issuance of money.

Free Download here:

Part 2 70 MB
Part1 89 MB

Download Part 1 first to watch from the begining.

http://www.archive.org/details/MoneyMasters

I'm sorry but I still see no real evidence!

I find it hard to debate/argue with someone who apperas to always equate socialism with statism/stalinism.

Your pictures were rather nice, but I don't see the reason of them.

And as for your movies, well the first was an hour and a half long, and I don't have enough time to watch it. But I did try to download it, but for some reason I couldn't.:badpc:

 

[Lucidthots]

I'm sorry but I still see no real evidence!

I find it hard to debate/argue with someone who apperas to always equate socialism with statism/stalinism.

Your pictures were rather nice, but I don't see the reason of them.

And as for your movies, well the first was an hour and a half long, and I don't have enough time to watch it. But I did try to download it, but for some reason I couldn't.:badpc:

Investigate it for yourself!

Socialism is a totalitarian form of government which is why it is promoted by the Bankers and other industrilaists.

The ideal form of government is a Republic where the Congress authorizes the issuance of currency, not a private-for profit- Central Bank owned by international bankers which is what we have now.

We had such a government under Lincoln and Jackson.

The poverty we face in America and around the world is a result of unending debt and the resulting income tax.

In other words under a Socialist system the worker ends up getting taxed to pay the interest and principle on the loans to the bankers, and that is the way wealth is "re-distributed."

And the bankers can introduce or retract the quantity of money in circulation as well as raise or lower interest rates which creates inflation and deflation as well as a boom/bust phenomena.

Their is no "business cycle" as the government tells us to believe.

Their is however manipulation of interest rates which precedes our regular "recessions."

The "Great Depression" is traceable to such financial manipulations which drove America to accept Socialism and the graduated income tax system of Karl Marx.

 

[Kelzie]

Investigate it for yourself!

Socialism is a totalitarian form of government which is why it is promoted by the Bankers and other industrilaists.

The ideal form of government is a Republic where the Congress authorizes the issuance of currency, not a private-for profit- Central Bank owned by international bankers which is what we have now.

We had such a government under Lincoln and Jackson.

The poverty we face in America and around the world is a result of unending debt and the resulting income tax.

In other words under a Socialist system the worker ends up getting taxed to pay the interest and principle on the loans to the bankers, and that is the way wealth is "re-distributed."

And the bankers can introduce or retract the quantity of money in circulation as well as raise or lower interest rates which creates inflation and deflation as well as a boom/bust phenomena.

Their is no "business cycle" as the government tells us to believe.

Their is however manipulation of interest rates which precedes our regular "recessions."

The "Great Depression" is traceable to such financial manipulations which drove America to accept Socialism and the graduated income tax system of Karl Marx.

Socialism is NOT a totalitarian form of government. Socialism is an economic system. That's like saying that capitalism is a particular form of government. It's not. Western Europe is a great example of a democratic socialist state.

 

[Comrade Brian]

Investigate it for yourself!

Socialism is a totalitarian form of government which is why it is promoted by the Bankers and other industrilaists.

I've investigated it. Its far different than most people generally believe.

Socialism isn't inherently totalitarian, but sometimes the socialist/communist movements have accidently created totalitarian states,e.g. China, USSR, etc.

But anyways the media here in the US so to say, has a large amount of capitalist bias, because most of it is owned by large corporations. And since capitalism and socialism inherently conflict, then media is anti-socialist. What happens then? Anything good capitalism brings, its like amplified, more so than it really is, and bad things of capitalism are muted. For socialism, good things are muted and bad things are amplified.

And when you claim industrialists/bankers support socialism, I must have missed their endorsements of people say like Hugo Chavez or Lenin or Eugene Debs

 

[Comrade Brian]

Socialism is NOT a totalitarian form of government.

I happen to quite agree(no surprise?) But some people take a few examples of totalitarian states that came as a result of some socialist movements, and quite ironically some of these states betrayed what they set their foundations on,e.g. USSR.

 

[Kelzie]

I happen to quite agree(no surprise?) But some people take a few examples of totalitarian states that came as a result of some socialist movements, and quite ironically some of these states betrayed what they set their foundations on,e.g. USSR.

And some people believe in little green men. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[Comrade Brian]

And some people believe in little green men. Coincidence? I think not.

I believe in little green men... just get a really short person and color them green.

 

[Lucidthots]

Socialism is NOT a totalitarian form of government. Socialism is an economic system. That's like saying that capitalism is a particular form of government. It's not. Western Europe is a great example of a democratic socialist state.

It is a Totalitarian system because it is mandatory participation in the Social System through extorion/taxation.


That is not freedom.

 

[Comrade Brian]

It is a Totalitarian system because it is mandatory participation in the Social System through taxation.


That is not freedom.

Businesses are also quite totalitarian and bureaucratic.

And I fail to see how taxation is totalitarian.

 

[Lucidthots]

Businesses are also quite totalitarian and bureaucratic.

And I fail to see how taxation is totalitarian.

The Great Depression was created by financial market manipulation.

The Bolshevik revolution was financed by the ultra-wealthy industrialists.

Trotsky (Bronstein) was a murderer who was given huge sums of money to pay mercenaries to overthrow the Russian aristocracy (partly for their suppport of America against the international bankers) and supplant a foreign Monopoly.

The emotions of the proletariat are manipulated by the immensley wealthy through media propaganda in order to generate a class warfare which destroys the middle class and makes everyone equally impoverished except for the industrialists and bankers who orchestrate the events.

Why do you think this form of government spread throughout the world?

The bankers financed it!

 

[Comrade Brian]

The Great Depression was created by financial market manipulation.

The Bolshevik revolution was financed by the ultra-wealthy industrialists.

Trotsky (Bronstein) was a murderer who was given huge sums of money to pay mercenaries to overthrow the Russian aristocracy and supplant a foreign Monopoly.

The emotions of the proletariat are manipulated by the immensley wealthy through media propaganda in order to generate a class warfare which destroys the middle class and makes everyone equally impoverished except for the industrialists and bankers who orchestrate the events.

Why do you think this form of government spread throughout the world?

The bankers financed it!

Are we going back to this pathetic debate of bankers financing people like Lenin and Trotsky, two very smart people who wanted to abolish the owning and working classes? Who were extremely anti-capitalists?

And again I see no proof of your claims.

 

[Kelzie]

It is a Totalitarian system because it is mandatory participation in the Social System through extorion/taxation.


That is not freedom.

The populace has choosen to pay higher taxes in western europe. How is that totalitarian?

 

[Lucidthots]

Are we going back to this pathetic debate of bankers financing people like Lenin and Trotsky, two very smart people who wanted to abolish the owning and working classes? Who were extremely anti-capitalists?

And again I see no proof of your claims.

The proof is in the video documentary I told you to watch.

The industrialist----Warburg, I believe, claimed to have paid millioins to overthrow the Czar.

Here is a picture of JDR III giving Trygve Lie (communist/ personal friend of Trotsky/Bronstein) a check for 8,500,000.00 to build the U.N.