Voice of Reason
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Blackflagx said:The role of the state in society will be to take care of the people which it serves. There state must create desperately needed social programs such as universal health care, publicly funded elections, social security, universal education, welfare, etc. The state will be involved in social programs, law enforcement, protecting the rights of the people, and in establishing and maintaining political and economic democracy. As of now, we do not have a democracy. We have a constitutional representative republic. I feel that this is not good enough. We need direct political and economic democray where all citizens/workers vote on government decisions in proportion to the degree they are affected by them. We must also abolish the electoral college and institute a real majority vote system such as instant runoff voting. Direct democracy in a word.
Do you mean every employee will have a vote on all the business decisions a company makes, as though they were all on the board of directors, or are you talking about an election to decide who runs the company or is there another way you see this process playing out?Blackflagx said:The workers will democratically run their workplaces and will …...
So in this system, if Company “A” manufactures a widget and has 1000 factory line personnel, 100 administrative personnel and 25 management personnel, the least educated and least skilled will earn the highest wages while the most educated and most skilled will earn the least due to sheer numbers. What incentive do I have to go through the rigors of getting an education if, in so doing, I have destined myself to earn less?Blackflagx said:This profit division will be democratically decided by the body of workers.
Great, Company “B” just put all the people working for Company “A” in the poor house because Company “B” is dominating the market by paying top dollar for top talent.Blackflagx said:Keep in mind that the state will not assign you to work in a specific place, you will decide this yourself. Under socialism, the state is not a totalitarian machine.
No, he has dictatorial power over the company’s business. There’s a big difference. I can’t force all the people who work for me to dye their hair purple or to have sex with me or to give me their first-born child.Blackflagx said:If private enterprise exists, the owner has dictatorial power over the workers that work for him.
Not everyone is qualified to be involved in the decision making process. How do you envision those who can’t and those who barely can read, evaluating a 10 to 5000-page contract and voting on it? How will those that can read ever get any work done if they have to read, comprehend and vote on everything the company does? What about the finances? Will those who haven’t taken statistics or algebra have a vote on financial issues?Blackflagx said:They are not involved in the decision making process and are totally exempt from the running of their place of work.
GPS_Flex said:You keep trumping this “democracy at the workplace” thing up but you still haven’t explained how it will work.
Voice of Reason said:In your socialist economy, is the private citizen allowed to start his/her own business, or is their just one major "Corporation" for every individual industry need.
(Perhaps ,Blackflagx, you should get some of your other Socialist friends to join this thread in order to keep you from getting swamped by questions.)
I am also curious as to how you will answer Flex's questions.
I have always heard professors and historians say that Socialsim is a wonderful theory but that it is flawed in the sense that it fails under practical application. The mathematics coupled with human nature don't add up.
V.I. Lenin said:All this about a democratic workplace...this seems more anarchist then socialist.
Do you mean every employee will have a vote on all the business decisions a company makes, as though they were all on the board of directors, or are you talking about an election to decide who runs the company or is there another way you see this process playing out?
So in this system, if Company “A” manufactures a widget and has 1000 factory line personnel, 100 administrative personnel and 25 management personnel, the least educated and least skilled will earn the highest wages while the most educated and most skilled will earn the least due to sheer numbers.
In your socialist economy, is the private citizen allowed to start his/her own business, or is their just one major "Corporation" for every individual industry need.
I suppose I shall jump into this. I'm not as radical or communist as Blackflag
All this about a democratic workplace...this seems more anarchist then socialist.
lazy
uneducated
As my father, a carpenter, used to say, “I think you hit the nail on the head” with that one.Voice of Reason said:The mathematics coupled with human nature don't add up.
V.I. Lenin said:However, I propose what Fidel Castro has done. In Cuba, you may own a private business, send a percentage of what you make to the government to be distributed and then keep the rest to sell for profit.
Blackflagx said:If you want to wear a red tie, that is your personal choice, no vote is required. If you want to increase production, that requires a vote of those who do the producing. Decision making in proportion to the degree you are affected. This democracy can take the form of majority rules, consensus, or something else depending on the situation. I also feel that all higher bodies of management should be elected and recallable.
So how would those who do the producing determine whether it’s in the companies/their own best interest to increase production if they aren’t all qualified to be bean counters? Do you really expect a company to be productive if it’s left to those doing the work to decide how hard they should work if they aren’t capable of understanding simple statistics? It seems to me they would all vote for Monday Night Football as a paid holiday and due to their overwhelming numbers, they would get what they want.Blackflagx said:If you want to increase production, that requires a vote of those who do the producing. Decision making in proportion to the degree you are affected.
That’s not socialism, that’s anarchy. Who decides who is affected and who gets to vote in your system?Blackflagx said:Decision making in proportion to the degree you are affected.
It doesn’t sound like you really know how this thing will actually work. “Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought”. If you haven’t thought through the details, how can you be sure it will work?Blackflagx said:This democracy can take the form of majority rules, consensus, or something else depending on the situation.
Hate to break the news to you but you aren’t advocating socialist ideals, you’re still advocating anarchist ideology.Blackflagx said:I was an anarchist when I signed up, but ive matured since then.
Alas, a little common sense. An economic system like this will work. I wouldn’t be anxious to be part of it but at least I have something reasonable to work with here.V.I. Lenin said:However, I propose what Fidel Castro has done. In Cuba, you may own a private business, send a percentage of what you make to the government to be distributed and then keep the rest to sell for profit.
GPS_Flex said:Alas, a little common sense. An economic system like this will work. I wouldn’t be anxious to be part of it but at least I have something reasonable to work with here.
I can see socialism working, to some degree, in a totalitarian state but I just think Blackflagx has gone off the deep end and doesn’t have a clue what his socialism would look like or how it would really work.
Would you say socialism inexorably leads to a totalitarian state if it’s going to be successful Lenin?
Well I'm humbled. I hope more people come to share this sentiment. My ideas sometimes leave me in the cold with my Orthodox-Marxist friends but this makes up for it.GPS_Flex said:You’ve earned my respect Lenin. You are indeed a realist with an optimistic outlook. It is a pleasure to have made your acquaintance.
V.I. Lenin said:We need a republic with a socialist and capitalist mixed economy. People should be able to do what they wish and go to college to do what they wish and not have to worry about were to live and how to get tuition money. People shouldn't have to live in boxes while others drive luxury cars. The gap needs to shrink, but not disappear..it cannot disappear. That's utopian. Without at least a small gap the sides shall collide and the system shall crumble.
Voice of Reason said:I believe that this thread has served its purpose.
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