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So.......... Now We Have Seen The Russian Army In Action In Europe

oneworld2

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So.......... Now We Have Seen The Russian Army In Action In Europe, is everyone going to drop the ridiculous notion that Putin is aiming to recreate the old USSR and retake Eastern Europe?
 

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So.......... Now We Have Seen The Russian Army In Action In Europe, is everyone going to drop the ridiculous notion that Putin is aiming to recreate the old USSR and retake Eastern Europe?
Putin just engaged in full scale invasion on Ukraine and is trying to take it over (destroy its government/military and install Russia-friendly people).

Are you really asking this right now?
 

oneworld2

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Putin just engaged in full scale invasion on Ukraine and is trying to take it over (destroy its government/military and install Russia-friendly people).

Are you really asking this right now?

There's no evidence that Putin is " trying to take it over" at all

He gave his aims and it didn't include taking over the country nor does the military attack look like it's an attempt to take over the country so yeah, I am asking this now.

The US spent decades in Afghanistan and never won, same with Iraq and never won.

What makes you people think Putins weaker army can recapture Eastern Europe when it cannot even win in Ukraine?
 

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So.......... Now We Have Seen The Russian Army In Action In Europe, is everyone going to drop the ridiculous notion that Putin is aiming to recreate the old USSR and retake Eastern Europe?
No, because it's fairly clear now, as a result of his actions, that this is exactly what Putin's aims were.

The only thing we've learned is a huge mismatch between Russian bark and bite.
 

oneworld2

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No, because it's fairly clear now, as a result of his actions, that this is exactly what Putin's aims were.

The only thing we've learned is a huge mismatch between Russian bark and bite.


Hard to give up that long held belief even though the reality of it is in tatters? I'm shocked lol
 

phoenix2020

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Hard to give up that long held belief even though the reality of it is in tatters? I'm shocked lol
Hard to give up your long held belief that Putin doesn't have aspirations for Eastern Europe even though the reality of it is in tatters? I'm shocked lol
 

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There's no evidence that Putin is " trying to take it over" at all
He demanded their entire military lay down their arms and one of his demands is "demilitarization" which could ONLY be achieved "taking it over".

He gave his aims and it didn't include taking over the country
I agree he never aimed to occupy Ukraine, but it is self evident he aimed to militarily defeat Ukraine, overthrow the government, and install a Russia aligned government. Does that not count as "taking over the country"?

nor does the military attack look like it's an attempt to take over the country
?

This would hold water if...you know...they hadn't launched an attack against the entire country. Like if they had limited their operations to exclusively the Donbass. Why would they make such an aggressive early attempt to take the capital if they didn't want to force a total surrender of Ukraine's armed forces?

What makes you people think Putins weaker army can recapture Eastern Europe when it cannot even win in Ukraine?
What I think Putin can do and what Putin wants to do are two very different discussions.
 

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There's no evidence that Putin is " trying to take it over" at all

He gave his aims and it didn't include taking over the country nor does the military attack look like it's an attempt to take over the country so yeah, I am asking this now.

The US spent decades in Afghanistan and never won, same with Iraq and never won.

What makes you people think Putins weaker army can recapture Eastern Europe when it cannot even win in Ukraine?


Putin loves you.
 

watsup

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So.......... Now We Have Seen The Russian Army In Action In Europe, is everyone going to drop the ridiculous notion that Putin is aiming to recreate the old USSR and retake Eastern Europe?

Why did the Eastern European nations want so badly to join NATO? Can you answer just one question honestly. (Answer: NOT!)
 

lwf

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So.......... Now We Have Seen The Russian Army In Action In Europe, is everyone going to drop the ridiculous notion that Putin is aiming to recreate the old USSR and retake Eastern Europe?
What is clear is that Putin is dumb enough to try even if he's outmatched. That alone warrants NATO expansion ASAP.
 

oneworld2

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He demanded their entire military lay down their arms and one of his demands is "demilitarization" which could ONLY be achieved "taking it over".

He said the invasion was to ensure a "denazification" and a " demilitarisation" of Ukraine. If he can destroy significant parts of the Ukrainian military that would count as a demilitarisation. I don't think you have to necesasarily take over the country to achieve that
I agree he never aimed to occupy Ukraine, but it is self evident he aimed to militarily defeat Ukraine, overthrow the government, and install a Russia aligned government. Does that not count as "taking over the country"?

Occupation, long term occupation, even if acheivable was not a stated goal. I don't recall him stating a wish for regime change although at first I thought it might b e an unstated goal, I now don't think it is or it would be desirable for Putin


This would hold water if...you know...they hadn't launched an attack against the entire country. Like if they had limited their operations to exclusively the Donbass. Why would they make such an aggressive early attempt to take the capital if they didn't want to force a total surrender of Ukraine's armed forces?

To threaten the capital would make sense imo but I don't think there was a serious attempt to take Kiev. My guess would be that the interest in Kiev was to serve as a destraction for the attack in the east. From what I am hearing from some souces ( all to be held in the skeptical bubble seeing as we are in a war of words too) is that there is a large Ukrainian army in the east that the Russians are trying to encircle/cut off. if that were to happen and the Russians destroy it then that might be the demilitarisation he was speaking of



What I think Putin can do and what Putin wants to do are two very different discussions.

IMO the very idea that Putin plans to take over eastern Europe is such a fantasy as to be dismissed instantly. Even if he wanted it he is not stupid enough to think he can do it. If he is struggling against Ukraine then the chances of a march through Poland, Latvia, Hungary, Estonia and on and on is beyond belief
 

oneworld2

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What is clear is that Putin is dumb enough to try even if he's outmatched. That alone warrants NATO expansion ASAP.

That's not " clear" at all. He hasn't even put in the necessary forces to occupy Ukriane let alone eastern Europe
 

The Mark

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There's no evidence that Putin is " trying to take it over" at all

He gave his aims and it didn't include taking over the country nor does the military attack look like it's an attempt to take over the country so yeah, I am asking this now.

The US spent decades in Afghanistan and never won, same with Iraq and never won.

What makes you people think Putins weaker army can recapture Eastern Europe when it cannot even win in Ukraine?
Their apparent lack of capability doesn't mean they didn't think they could.
Edit: Also, why the **** would I believe what any politician states as their aims, especially when there are reasons to think it's a lie?
 

oneworld2

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Their apparent lack of capability doesn't mean they didn't think they could.

Have you any evidence to indicate they ever thought they could?
 

The Mark

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Have you any evidence to indicate they ever thought they could?
There was that mistakenly released pre-written article talking about how they'd managed it.
I'd have to go back and find it but I would bet that isn't the only indication.

Edit: Found an article on it:
 

oneworld2

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There was that mistakenly released pre-written article talking about how they'd managed it.
I'd have to go back and find it but I would bet that isn't the only indication.

Edit: Found an article on it:

I am aware of that article and don't agree with the conclusion BUT that's still not evidence that Putin seeks to recreate the old USSR or thinks he can
 

The Mark

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I am aware of that article and don't agree with the conclusion BUT that's still not evidence that Putin seeks to recreate the old USSR or thinks he can
You mean apart from the 'reversing "the tragedy of 1991"' part?
And saying there will be no more Ukraine?
 

oneworld2

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You mean apart from the 'reversing "the tragedy of 1991"' part?
And saying there will be no more Ukraine?

I had this dispute over that article with someone lese recently and will just ask you a simple question

Who wrote that article?

If it wasn't Putin, and there are no quotes from Putin in that article ,then there is no evidence contained in it and it remains the view of the author

And

Even if you are granted the licence to assign these views to Putin it would only relate to Ukraine anyhow. No mention of rolling back time and finished up occupying east Germany
 

oneworld2

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The attempted invasion of Ukraine comes to mind.

He drew a red line on Ukraine and Georgia because of the existential threat NATO military bases in those countries would pose. That's pretty reasonable imo

Why not say Poland was a red line, or Latvia, or Lithuania?
 

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He said the invasion was to ensure a "denazification" and a " demilitarisation" of Ukraine. If he can destroy significant parts of the Ukrainian military that would count as a demilitarisation. I don't think you have to necesasarily take over the country to achieve that


Occupation, long term occupation, even if acheivable was not a stated goal. I don't recall him stating a wish for regime change although at first I thought it might b e an unstated goal, I now don't think it is or it would be desirable for Putin




To threaten the capital would make sense imo but I don't think there was a serious attempt to take Kiev. My guess would be that the interest in Kiev was to serve as a destraction for the attack in the east. From what I am hearing from some souces ( all to be held in the skeptical bubble seeing as we are in a war of words too) is that there is a large Ukrainian army in the east that the Russians are trying to encircle/cut off. if that were to happen and the Russians destroy it then that might be the demilitarisation he was speaking of





IMO the very idea that Putin plans to take over eastern Europe is such a fantasy as to be dismissed instantly. Even if he wanted it he is not stupid enough to think he can do it. If he is struggling against Ukraine then the chances of a march through Poland, Latvia, Hungary, Estonia and on and on is beyond belief

More lies. Putin loves you.
 

watsup

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I am aware of that article and don't agree with the conclusion BUT that's still not evidence that Putin seeks to recreate the old USSR or thinks he can

What do the analysts say?
 

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He drew a red line on Ukraine and Georgia because of the existential threat NATO military bases in those countries would pose. That's pretty reasonable imo

Why not say Poland was a red line, or Latvia, or Lithuania?
What exactly is reasonable about drawing a red line and then invading a country that doesn't cross it?
 

watsup

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He drew a red line on Ukraine and Georgia because of the existential threat NATO military bases in those countries would pose. That's pretty reasonable imo

Why not say Poland was a red line, or Latvia, or Lithuania?

See post #22.
 
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