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so how many people has the U.S. murdered throughout history....

Red_Dave

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Loxd4 said:
If Venezuela cut off there oil supply to United States of America for no good reason (which there would be no good reason). The U.S. would have to buy more oil from another county or open up there reserves or use war as an option (as did Japan in WWII), because the U.S. need oil to fuel it's economy.
And I would like to say "It would not be morally right to invited Venezuela if this happen, but remember morally come last when the will to survive kicks in.”

I am try to say that when we cut off oil to Japan in WWII, we provoke them to attack us because they did have enough oil to fuel there war machine.

Dose this make more sense now?

Well as far as im concerned its up to the government of Venezuela who they do buissness with not the government of america. There would be plenty of reasons for Venezuela to cut off oil to america.

For one thing the C.I.A attempted to overthrow Chavez. A leader given a popular mandate to government by the people on Venezulea 7 times if i remember rightly. Like you said cutting a nations oil supply cuts the fuel to there "war machine" Therfore cutting americas oil supply would be an effective and justified method of self defence.
 

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Loxd4 said:
You ever hear that saying "to have an effect you need a cause." Well the bombing of Pearl Harbor and Al-Qaeda attacked was a effect. We got the Al-Qaeda pissed some how i dont know how.......and the Pearl Harbor had it coming for us................Ok, here goes a Scenario if Presedent Hugo shut of oil supply to the US, what would the US do...just sit back and hope for the best or attack....i think we would attack if they would come to a comprise with 24 hours......now we cut of oil to japon durning WWII when they need oil for there war machine....so they attack b/c of something we did....

We didn't **** of Al-Qaeda Al-Qaeda is pissed off naturally their ideology is one of hatred and fascism. As for the Japanese oil embargo are you honestly of the state of mind that that was justification for bombing us? The fact of the matter we wouldn't attack Venezuela if Chavez cut off the oil (which he would never do by the way becuase with out us his economy would collapse) I know this for a fact because we did not attack the Middle East during the 1970s oil embargo against the U.S. for our support of Israel. So there you go you're wrong.
 

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Red_Dave said:
Your forgetting that the U.S has supported 12 dictatorships in latin america.

Better than communism, and Latin America with the exception of the tyrannical socialist regimes of Castro and Chavez is Democratic and free.
Not to mention genocidal regiumes like Israel.

Holy Christ that's really an unbelievable statement, have you ever heard of the grand Mufti al-Histani of Palestine? The Middle East including Iran, and Iraq were allied with Nazi Germany, there were Muslim SS Palestinian shock troops who commited actual genocide. Your revisionist history is laughable catch a clue.
 

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Red_Dave said:
That would be the Somoza's in Nicaragua. Not to mention the american funded terroist war against the Somoza's successors the Zapista Junta. Oh my bad i forgot Carlos Castillo Armas in geutamala thats 13 and counting . i imagine theres more but im not going to combine a complete list for now as that would take ages

What exactly do you consider support? I mean trade does not translate into support in my book that falls under pragmatism which has been our foriegn policy since our inception. Lack of support for socialist regimes does not fall under the classification of support either that's called looking out for our own interests again that falls under the category of pragmatism.

You people are really quite ridiculous, in your book if we have an interventionalist foriegn policy we are evil imperialist, yet if we don't have an intervenionalist foriegn policy then we are supporting dictators. If free trade is equatable to support then I suppose Canada also supported 13 dictators in Latin America as well, as too did western Europe.

It's funny how the least free nations in Latin America are the ones who run a socialist government the same as the ones that we opposed throughout the cold war yet the most free are the ones who now run a capitalist open market oriented economy:

[URL="http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/history/assets/free_countries.jpg"][URL="http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/history/assets/free_countries.jpg"][URL="http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/history/assets/free_countries.jpg"] [/URL][/URL][/URL]
 
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Red_Dave said:
Your forgetting that the U.S has supported 12 dictatorships in latin america. Many of which killed thousands of people. Not to mention genocidal regiumes like Israel.

well gimme some numbers.

and Israel being "genocidal" is another thread entirely. I would submit trying to exist and defending yourself against terrorists is certainly no genocide.


not too mention, how can you claim the deaths that Israel commited are Americas fault?

am I allowed to claim all the deaths commited by Palestine are Iraqs fault since Saddam supported them?

I gotta tell the other side that to me, it looks like you are awfully desperate to pad some numbers to try and be right on this issue by wanting to blame America for the deaths caused by other nations simply because we consider said nation an ally.

are the allies of Germany in 1940 guilty for the deaths commited by Germany....or do we actually hold the guilty party accountable?
 
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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
I support the Contras, they were fighting the evil genocidal Sandanista communist scum, the Contras were freedom fighters, death to the ****ing Sandinista tyrants!!!

You support the Contras that killed innocent farmers in Nicaragua? So basically you support all the Freedom Fighters in Africa right? The ones who killed millions in the 90s? Apparently you do. For someone who's so educated you have no clear view of what a freedom fighter is. Websters deffinition of a freedom fighter :

Freedom fighter is a relativistic local term for those engaged in rebellion against an established government that is held to be oppressive and illegitimate. The terms "freedom" and "rebellion" are often controversial, as often both sides in armed conflict claim to represent the popular cause of "freedom". While external intervening parties, even oppressors, almost always claim to be "liberators", 'freedom fighters' also often become oppressors in the eyes of civilians.

If you support freedom fighters....you basically support Castro since he was a freedom fighter in his time...you support Che Guevara...you support Hezbolla...you support Bin Laden.

BTW....

We didn't **** of Al-Qaeda Al-Qaeda is pissed off naturally their ideology is one of hatred and fascism.

Ok....In another topic or was it this one? You said...."Facism is a form of Socialism"...OK....If you knew anything about Al-Qaeda you'd know there is nothing they hate more then socialism since 99% of all socialist states are atheist. I'm not sure about North Korea. Al-Qaeda was fighting the soviets remember?
 

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Davo said:
You support the Contras that killed innocent farmers in Nicaragua? So basically you support all the Freedom Fighters in Africa right? The ones who killed millions in the 90s? Apparently you do. For someone who's so educated you have no clear view of what a freedom fighter is. Websters deffinition of a freedom fighter :

That's a lie the Contras were fighting for the people of Nicaragua it was the Sandanistas that committed the attrocities, again your ignorance is profound you are either misinformed or you are intentionally spreading socialist misinformation and propoganda:

Human rights controversy

Lacking support from the population in that part of the country, Sandinista troops committed their most controversial activities (as far as human rights are concerned) on the Atlantic Coast, including the forcible relocation of 8,500 Miskitos from their land and the destruction of up to 100 villages, activities which led to charges of genocide at the time. They also killed and imprisoned several indigenous people suspected of Contra collaboration. On two separate occasions in 1981 and 1982, Sandinista troops committed massacres in which approximately (UNHCR Report) 34 Miskito Indians died.

During the war Amnesty International and other groups alleged that political prisoners in Sandinista prisons, such as in Las Tejas, were beaten, deprived of sleep and tortured with electric shocks. They were denied food and water and kept in dark cubicles that had a surface of less than one square metre, known as chiquitas ("little ones.") These cubicles were too small to sit up in and had no sanitation and almost no ventilation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandinista

The Sandinista army committed myriad atrocities against the Indian population, killing and imprisoning approximately 15,000 innocent people. The crimes included not only mass murders of innocent natives themselves, but a calculated liquidation of their entire leadership – as the Soviet army had perpetrated against the Poles in Katyn in 1943.

According to the Nicaraguan Commission of Jurists, the Sandinistas carried out over 8,000 political executions within three years of the revolution. The number of "anti-revolutionary" Nicaraguans who had "disappeared" in Sanadinista hands or had died "trying to escape" were numbered in the thousands. By 1983, the number of political prisoners in the Sandinistas' ruthless tyranny were estimated at 20,000. Torture was institutionalized.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=180

Davo said:
Freedom fighter is a relativistic local term for those engaged in rebellion against an established government that is held to be oppressive and illegitimate. The terms "freedom" and "rebellion" are often controversial, as often both sides in armed conflict claim to represent the popular cause of "freedom". While external intervening parties, even oppressors, almost always claim to be "liberators", 'freedom fighters' also often become oppressors in the eyes of civilians.

If you support freedom fighters....you basically support Castro since he was a freedom fighter in his time...you support Che Guevara...you support Hezbolla...you support Bin Laden.

Che Guevara, Fidel Castro, Hezbollah and Bin Ladin do not fight for freedom, Che and Fidel fought for a totalitarian state, Hezbollah's stated goal is the destruction of Israel not freedom even after the liberation of Lebanon Hezbollah still sponsors attacks on Israel, Bin Ladin fights not for freedom he fights for a Pan-Islamic empire headed by a fundamentalist theocracy based on Sharia law.





Ok....In another topic or was it this one? You said...."Facism is a form of Socialism"...OK....If you knew anything about Al-Qaeda you'd know there is nothing they hate more then socialism since 99% of all socialist states are atheist. I'm not sure about North Korea. Al-Qaeda was fighting the soviets remember?

Fascism is a form of socialism, Mussolini himself was a devout socialist, the Nazi party is an acronym of the words National Socialist Party in German:

MODERN LEFTISM AS RECYCLED FASCISM



By: John J. Ray (M.A.; Ph.D.)


A Leftist prophet

The ideas of Benito Mussolini (1883-1945), the founder of Fascism, are remarkably similar to the ideas of modern-day Western Leftists. If Mussolini was not the direct teacher of modern-day Leftists, he was certainly a major predecessor. What Leftists advocate today is not, of course, totally identical with what Mussolini was advocating and doing 60 to 80 years ago in Italy but there are nonetheless extensive and surprising parallels. Early in the 20th century, he prophesied that the 20th century would be the century of Fascism and he got that right in that most of his ideas are still preached by the modern-day Left.



The popular view

Popular encyclopedias such as Funk & Wagnalls (1983) lump together Hitler's German regime, Mussolini's Italian regime, General Tojo's Japanese regime and Generalissimo Franco's Spanish regime under the single rubric of "fascist" so it seems clear that it is the accepted wisdom that all four regimes were basically similar and differed only in matters of detail. Anyone who knows even a little of the history of the period concerned, however, must realize how far from the truth this is. The feudal warlords of Japan, the antisemitic socialist of Germany, the Catholic monarchist of Spain and the pragmatic socialist of Italy were in fact really united over only one thing: Their dislike of Lenin and Stalin's Communism and "Bolshevism" generally. There clearly is some need, therefore, for us to look at what Mussolini and the Fascists really were and did.



The reality

In what follows, facts that should be easily checkable in popular encyclopaedias and textbooks will not be referenced. Less well-known facts, however, will be referenced. History is of course written by the victors and most summaries of historical Fascism are therefore written from a very anti-Fascist perspective so care is normally needed to tease out the facts behind the interpretations and value-judgments. That will attempted here.

Unlike many other accounts, considerable emphasis will be given here to Mussolini's early years. What politicians say in order to get into power and what they do once they gain power are notoriously two different things -- with Lenin and Stalin being not the least examples of that. A major aim therefore will be to see where Mussolini came from and what he did and said in order to get into power.

To do so, however, is a considerable trip back in time and one effect of that is that the political terminology of nearly 100 years ago was somewhat different from today. In reading quotations from the early days one must keep in mind that those Mussolini refers to as "Socialists" were in fact Marxists rather than social democrats and those whom Mussolini refers to as "liberals" were advocates of laissez faire and would hence be described as conservatives today. Mussolini started out as a Marxist but eventually devised Fascism as a "third way" (sound familiar?). He saw it as offering a middle way between Marxism and capitalism -- Leftist but not Marxist.

http://jonjayray.tripod.com/musso.html

Modern Islamo-Fascism is an offshoot of the very same Fascism of the Third Reich:

[URL="http://www.sfgate.com/templates/brands/chronicle/images/chronicle_logo.gif"][URL="http://www.sfgate.com/templates/brands/chronicle/images/chronicle_logo.gif"][URL="http://www.sfgate.com/templates/brands/chronicle/images/chronicle_logo.gif"] [/URL][/URL][/URL]


Denial of Holocaust nothing new in Iran
Ties to Hitler led to plots against British and Jews

Edwin Black
Sunday, January 8, 2006

Relations between Berlin and Tehran were strong from the moment Hitler came to power in 1933. At that time, Reza Shah Pahlavi's nation was known as Persia. The shah became a stalwart admirer of Hitler, Nazism and the concept of the Aryan master race. He also sought the Reich's help in reducing British petro-political domination.

He called upon all Muslims to "kill the Jews wherever you see them." In Tehran's marketplace, it was common to see placards that declared, "In heaven, Allah is your master. On Earth, it is Adolf Hitler."

When the mufti raised three divisions of Islamic Waffen SS to undertake cruel operations in Bosnia, among the 30,000 killers were some volunteer contingents from Iran. Iranian Nazis, along with the other Muslim Waffen SS, operated under the direct supervision of Heinrich Himmler and were responsible for barbarous actions against Jews and others in Bosnia. Recruitment for the murderous "Handschar Divisions" was done openly in Iran.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/08/INGODGH99Q1.DTL

In fact if you knew anything at all about the modern Islamic Fascism you would know that the Iranian revolution against the Shaw was initiated by a Marxist group who blended the teachings Marx with that of Islam.
 
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In fact if you knew anything at all about the modern Islamic Fascism you would know that the Iranian revolution against the Shaw was initiated by a Marxist group who blended the teachings Marx with that of Islam.

Read your own quote :

Did you know that even fascism is a form of socialism?

Now try to follow this with me since you went off and said something else.

"Al-Qaeda(As an organisation) is against Communism(hey there's something yall got in common)...Since socialism is a form of communism....and in turn facism is a form of socialism...Al-Qaeda would be contradicting itself"
 

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Davo said:
Read your own quote :



Now try to follow this with me since you went off and said something else.

"Al-Qaeda(As an organisation) is against Communism(hey there's something yall got in common)...Since socialism is a form of communism....and in turn facism is a form of socialism...Al-Qaeda would be contradicting itself"

Al-Qaeda contradicting itself? Now there's a ****ing surprise.

Fact: Fascism is a form of Socialism.

Fact: al-Qaeda is rooted in the fascist ideology of the third Reich.

Now try to follow this with me; it's called a parodox many people with, shall we say, less than optimal intellecual acuity can not comprehend such things.

Let me give you an example. This year a friend of mine from the CIA, named Bob Baer wrote a very good book about Saudi Arabia and terrorism, it's called Sleeping with the Devil. I read the book and I got about a third of the way through and I stopped. Bob was writing how when he worked for the CIA how bad the files were.
He said, for example, the files for the Muslim Brotherhood were almost nothing. There were just a few newspaper clippings. I called Bob up and said, “Bob, that's wrong. The CIA has enormous files on the Muslim Brotherhood, volumes of them. I know because I read them a quarter of a century ago.” He said, “What do you mean?”
Here's how you can find all of the missing secrets about the Muslim Brotherhood -- and you can do this, too. I said, “Bob, go to your computer and type in two words into the search part. Type the word “Banna,” B-a-n-n-a. He said, “Yeah.” Type in “Nazi.” Bob typed the two words in, and out came 30 to 40 articles from around the world. He read them and called me back and said, “Oh my gosh, what have we done?”
What I'm doing today is doing what I'm doing now: I'm educating a new generation in the CIA that the Muslim Brotherhood was a fascist organization that was hired by Western intelligence that evolved over time into what we today know as al-Qaeda.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15344
 
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Davo said:
Easily....The U.S. dropped 2 atomic bombs...killed 200,000 people(CIVILIANS) through the first action....and then countless more through time and radiation. An unnecesarry act of war that led to Japans surrendering...Some will say "The Japanese would have never surrendered"....I concur....so we basically commited a terrorist act by attacking their civilians who had nothing to do with the war....much like...Al-Qaeda killed the people at the world trade center.

Yeah, we followed the German model with regard to London.
Truman made a very tough decision and the bomb was bigger
than anything then previously known. Anyone who thinks he
made this decision irrationally, keeping in mind the era and
thinking of the time, is nuts!

Germany would have used it if they had had it. Japan would have
used it if they had had it. The US had it and used it.
 
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Davo,

Im intentionally not covering WWII yet because im still waiting for some kind of numbers from your side of the debate.

Or is your debating style simply making accusations without any attempt at providing actual numbers?

Personally, I think you want to avoid the actual numbers because you know what the end result is going to be.

I do ok for a Hillbilly when I put my mind to it. ;)
 

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ProudAmerican said:
Davo,

Im intentionally not covering WWII yet because im still waiting for some kind of numbers from your side of the debate.

Or is your debating style simply making accusations without any attempt at providing actual numbers?

Personally, I think you want to avoid the actual numbers because you know what the end result is going to be.

I do ok for a Hillbilly when I put my mind to it. ;)



Well I did put in a pretty big number.....200,000 Japanese civilians killed with the Atomic Bombs...If you factor in radiation and time that's another 200,000 more or less........I'll add another...the Iraqi death toll....is at around 200,000...Let's be fair and say American soldiers are responsible for 1/5 of these deaths(wether directly or indirectly)....that's still 40,000......anything you'd like to add?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States#History_of_the_United_States_.281988.E2.80.93present.29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodia

As of 2006, the political climate remains polarized as debates continue over economic issues, dealing with a steadily rising cost of health care, culture conflict and values based issues (encompassing separation of the church and the state, abortion, free speech and same-sex marriage), as well as the ongoing war in Iraq. [2] As of early 2006, the Iraqi death toll from the invasion stands at 200 000 or more

Vietnam War...

Casualties for the North Vietnamese

1,100,000 - Soldiers.
2–4 million - Civilians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

Mai Ly Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre
 
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anything you'd like to add?

sure. IMO, the atomic bombs shouldnt really count. That is a war that America definately didnt start, and as pointed out already, dropping those bombs probably saved lives in the long run. even enemy lives. withoud dropping those, I dont believe Japa would have ever surrenedered, no matter how many people they lost.....but of course, there is no way to know that for sure.

but I will gladly concede those losses anyway.....it still wont help your cause in the long run.

my numbers on WWII to follow.
 

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as far as vietnam, you want to pin the entire number of dead vietnamese on America?

you dont want to attribute some of those dead to the communists?

man you really dont play fair do you?
 

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Davo said:
Well I did put in a pretty big number.....200,000 Japanese civilians killed with the Atomic Bombs...If you factor in radiation and time that's another 200,000 more or less

Well then you have to figure in the estimated 10,000,000 lives that dropping the bombs saved by avoiding and invasion that's -9,800,000.


........I'll add another...the Iraqi death toll....is at around 200,000...

A) That's a total lie the deat toll has not surpassed 50,000 unless you get your fact from al-jazeera.

B) The bulk of the civilian population has been killed by the insurgency, the insurgency specifically targets innocent civilians the U.S. targets the enemy.

Let's be fair and say American soldiers are responsible for 1/5 of these deaths(wether directly or indirectly)....that's still 40,000......anything you'd like to add?

Your 200,000 number is a total fabrication. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the death toll is 50,000, 1/5 would be 10,000 dead terrorists killed by America and 40,000 innocent men women and children killed by those very same terrorist scum bags.


And how many millions of innocent South Vietnamese were killed by the aggresor nation of North Vietnam? How many were killed in the purges following our withdrawal, how about the hundreds of thousands killed by the Kymer Rouge in Cambodia etc etc etc!
 
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Give me any precedence in the whole human history, anything with
equal or more cruelty than the crimes committed by Japanese.

You shall find none.

And such crimes are stilled denied in this country.

Your outright anti americanism is glowing brightly glows.

Rape, torture, outright disrespect for humanity, brutality unmatched in history. Unit 731, biological testing on humans, denial of war crimes, and idealogy during the killings. The United States doesn't come close, near the capacity of inhumanity committed by the Japanese.

And you are forgetting the aftereffects, democracy, freedom, and liberty.
 

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ProudAmerican said:
as far as vietnam, you want to pin the entire number of dead vietnamese on America?

you dont want to attribute some of those dead to the communists?

man you really dont play fair do you?

ok....so lets say we split it half and half....who's responsible for the 1,100,000 dead gooks?
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus]Well then you have to figure in the estimated 10,000,000 lives that dropping the bombs saved by avoiding and invasion that's -9,800,000.

So you're saying...it was OK to annihilate 200,000 lives in 10 seconds? :| Boy...the Hutus would have loved you during the genocide.

A) That's a total lie the deat toll has not surpassed 50,000 unless you get your fact from al-jazeera.

I didnt...I got em from wikipedia....cnn and fox said the same things...

B) The bulk of the civilian population has been killed by the insurgency, the insurgency specifically targets innocent civilians the U.S. targets the enemy.

HEY! 2nd thing we agree on!

Your 200,000 number is a total fabrication. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the death toll is 50,000, 1/5 would be 10,000 dead terrorists killed by America and 40,000 innocent men women and children killed by those very same terrorist scum bags.

CNN and FOX said it...not me...

And how many millions of innocent South Vietnamese were killed by the aggresor nation of North Vietnam? How many were killed in the purges following our withdrawal, how about the hundreds of thousands killed by the Kymer Rouge in Cambodia etc etc etc!

....Didnt the U.S. continue bombing cambodia until the early 70s? Have you ever heard of Operation Menu?

More than a half million tons of bombs were dropped on Cambodia over the four-year campaign. The raids were secret and records were falsified to report that the targets were actually in South Vietnam. As the bombers were being guided and instructed when to release their bombs by MSQ-77 RADAR systems, even the crews of the bombers themselves were not aware what country they were bombing. These attacks were conducted without the consent of Congress and might have been grounds for the impeachment of President Nixon, however, the Watergate scandal had already prompted Nixon to resign.

Heres something the goverment will never tell you....most of the people killed by those bombs...were civilians :D
 

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Davo said:
So you're saying...it was OK to annihilate 200,000 lives in 10 seconds? :| Boy...the Hutus would have loved you during the genocide.

Yes that's what I'm saying. The bombs negated the neccessity for an invasion which would have cost tens of millions of civilian lives. The ends justified the means.


I didnt...I got em from wikipedia....cnn and fox said the same things...



HEY! 2nd thing we agree on!



CNN and FOX said it...not me...

Well they'e wrong:


http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

and this is from an anti-war cite.

....Didnt the U.S. continue bombing cambodia until the early 70s? Have you ever heard of Operation Menu?

What's your point? Screw the Kymer Rouge they slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in their little purges.

Heres something the goverment will never tell you....most of the people killed by those bombs...were civilians :D
\

Well then these civilians should have revolted against the Kymer Rouge and the North Vietnamese aggressor nations now shouldn't they?

The only innocent civilians in the Vietnamese conflict were the South Vietnamese.
 

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A lot less than many other nations. Less than most Western Europe nations, China, Russia, maybe Japan.
 

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Davo said:
So you're saying...it was OK to annihilate 200,000 lives in 10 seconds?

To save possible millions more... yes. As it was we saved countless numbers of Americans and Japanese by ending the war there and the.

BTW-We killed more in the fire-bombing of Tokyo than by nukes. We probably killed more bombing Germany than in nukes.
 
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