• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

so how many people has the U.S. murdered throughout history....

ProudAmerican

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
2,694
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
It has been stated in another forum that America has murdered more people throughout history than any other country.

I believe that is a very broad statement.
I believe circumstances have to be taken into account, and I also believe the end result must be taken into account. (ie how many people were freed or liberated as a result)

lets explore.

These are the major wars or conflicts America has participated in. anyone that wishes to add to the list, please do. I wont take the discussion any further untill we have at least agreed on the list of wars / conflicts.

WWI
WWII
Korea
Vietnam
Gulf War
Afghanistan
Iraq

This is just a list of major conflicts that first come to mind. If anyone wants to add other smaller conflicts (Somalia, Grenada, etc) please list them and I will add them.
once we have a final list, we will take the first one and discuss it in depth.

I believe the assertion that America has "murdered" more people than any other country throughout history is complete nonsense.
 

cherokee

Devil Dog
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
7,486
Reaction score
789
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
ProudAmerican said:
It has been stated in another forum that America has murdered more people throughout history than any other country.

I believe that is a very broad statement.
I believe circumstances have to be taken into account, and I also believe the end result must be taken into account. (ie how many people were freed or liberated as a result)

lets explore.

These are the major wars or conflicts America has participated in. anyone that wishes to add to the list, please do. I wont take the discussion any further untill we have at least agreed on the list of wars / conflicts.

WWI
WWII
Korea
Vietnam
Gulf War
Afghanistan
Iraq

This is just a list of major conflicts that first come to mind. If anyone wants to add other smaller conflicts (Somalia, Grenada, etc) please list them and I will add them.
once we have a final list, we will take the first one and discuss it in depth.

I believe the assertion that America has "murdered" more people than any other country throughout history is complete nonsense.
How can you possibly discover who was murdered and who was killed in combat? How can you break down a war and state this person was killed by US troops while Brits killed that one?
This is complete nonsense
 

Davo

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2006
Messages
143
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
cherokee said:
How can you possibly discover who was murdered and who was killed in combat? How can you break down a war and state this person was killed by US troops while Brits killed that one?
This is complete nonsense
Easily....The U.S. dropped 2 atomic bombs...killed 200,000 people(CIVILIANS) through the first action....and then countless more through time and radiation. An unnecesarry act of war that led to Japans surrendering...Some will say "The Japanese would have never surrendered"....I concur....so we basically commited a terrorist act by attacking their civilians who had nothing to do with the war....much like...Al-Qaeda killed the people at the world trade center.
 
Last edited:

cherokee

Devil Dog
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
7,486
Reaction score
789
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Davo said:
Easily....The U.S. Dropped 2 atomic bombs...killed a couple hundred thousand peoples through the first action...and then countless more through radiation. Discussion over.
Ok fly boy....

And what is the number of American and japs lives those two acts saved if a full scale invasion did happen?

HMM? Try close to a million!
 

Davo

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2006
Messages
143
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
cherokee said:
Ok fly boy....

And what is the number of American and japs lives those two acts saved if a full scale invasion did happen?

HMM? Try close to a million!
WOOOH! So it's ok to dematerialize an entire city of civilians....if it's going to stop a war? OK. :) Let's stop the war in Iraq by A-Bombing it until civilians and insurgents alike are dead. We'll stop the war quick that way. I bet if the Japanese had A-bombed an american city....like say....New York...you wouldnt be saying this. :)
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Davo said:
Easily....The U.S. dropped 2 atomic bombs...killed 200,000 people(CIVILIANS) through the first action....and then countless more through time and radiation. An unnecesarry act of war that led to Japans surrendering...Some will say "The Japanese would have never surrendered"....I concur....so we basically commited a terrorist act by attacking their civilians who had nothing to do with the war....much like...Al-Qaeda killed the people at the world trade center.
You sir are a revisionist historian, we gave the Japanese an ultimatum before we dropped the bombs. In dropping the bombs we saved lives, the estimated U.S. killed to take Japan was 1,000,000 and the Japanese death toll would have been astronomical. Al-Qaeda attacked us unprovoked much like the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor, we dropped the atom bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki during a state of total war your analogy is totally false and you sir are a supporter of terrorists and tyrants.
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Davo said:
WOOOH! So it's ok to dematerialize an entire city of civilians....if it's going to stop a war? OK. :) Let's stop the war in Iraq by A-Bombing it until civilians and insurgents alike are dead. We'll stop the war quick that way. I bet if the Japanese had A-bombed an american city....like say....New York...you wouldnt be saying this. :)
It was total war do you know what that is? The Japanese slaughtered millions of innocent Chinese civilians where is your bleeding liberal heart for the dead of the rape of Nanking or the Batton death march? The emperor who was considered by the Japanese people to be a living god through the religion known as Shintoism ordered every Japanese man, woman, and child to fight to the death to repell a U.S. invasion which they were eager to do. If we had not dropped the Atom Bombs the Japanese death toll would have been in the 10's of millions.
 
Last edited:

Trajan Octavian Titus

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
cherokee said:
Ok fly boy....

And what is the number of American and japs lives those two acts saved if a full scale invasion did happen?

HMM? Try close to a million!
No it would have resulted in 1,000,000 U.S. casualties alone the Japanese death toll would have been astronomical. The battle of Okinawa cost 125,000 Japanese military deaths alone, and 72,000 U.S. casualties, now figure that Okinawa isn't even 1/10 the size of Japan.
 

ProudAmerican

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
2,694
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
well, I see getting a list together first failed misserably.


Easily....The U.S. dropped 2 atomic bombs...killed 200,000 people(CIVILIANS) through the first action....

if you are going to count civilians killed in wars by America, then you must count the ones killed by other countries as well.

also, I dont know the exact number, but im pretty sure the Germans killed a lot more than 200,00

after the list was put together, I was going to suggest we all come up with a unanimous definition for "murder"

I would submit casualties of war are not murder.....but if we cant agree on that, at least we should be able to agree that if murder is innocent civilians dying in war by America, then its also murder when they die in war by France, Great Britain, Japan, Germany, and so on.


How can you possibly discover who was murdered and who was killed in combat? How can you break down a war and state this person was killed by US troops while Brits killed that one?
thats the purpose of this thread.


This is complete nonsense
then feel free not to participate. IMO, the nonsense was someone claiming America is guilty of more murder than any other country. Thats why this thread was started. IMO, if someone is going to make such an outrageous accusation, they should back it up with some facts.


now, if no one has another war or conflict they would like to add, I will proceed with WWI in the following post.
 

ProudAmerican

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
2,694
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
first we should look at the countries, and the number of forces they had.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWarmies1914.htm

simply looking at the number of troops involved, I would say clearly America couldnt have been responsible for more deaths than Russia, France, and Great Britain. Russia had 3 times as many troops as America and France and Great Britain had twice as many.

Now lets look at the casualties.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWdeaths.htm

Im not sure how to accurately go about deciding who was responsible for the most deaths, but I will give it a shot.

The central Powers Lost a total of 3,386,200 people. even if you were to say America alone was responsible for all 3.3 million, it wouldnt come close to equaling the Holocaust.
To be fair, we could say America was responsible for half of that number, even though our army was the smallest of the major contributors to the Allied coalition.

so, in WWI America was responsible for 1.6 of the 3.3 million casualties on the central powers side.

anyone got a problem with this number? Personally I think its high, but Im giving Davo the bennifit of the doubt.

also, we must look at the number of casualties on the side of the allies.
in total we lost 5,152,115

more than the central powers lost.
you could certainly say the main players on the central powers side....Germany and Austria Hungary, would be responsible for the vast majority of those deaths.
lets break it down like this

Germany, 2.5 million
Aust Hung 1.6 million
Turkey .6 million
Bulgaria .5 million

sound fair so far?
 
Last edited:

Davo

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2006
Messages
143
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Last edited:

ProudAmerican

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
2,694
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Davo said:
http://www.serendipity.li/cia/death_squads.htm

Are we going to count direct/indirect support of contras? And direct and indirect support for dictators? and....direct and indirect support for slaughterings...

http://www.betterworldlinks.org/book73e.htm
not sure why we would. but if you want to, sure.

it just means im going to have to do a lot of research on people killed from direct and indirect support of groups by other countries.

however,

if you are going to include such things, I want numbers. hard data, just like I provided above.

this is your call. tell me if we are going to include such a thing.

but dont think for a second you are going to be able to make a statement like

"America is responsible for 250,000 deaths due to the CIA support of death squads in Brazil" without backing it up with facts.

care to comment on my WWI post?
 

Davo

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2006
Messages
143
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
"America is responsible for 250,000 deaths due to the CIA support of death squads in Brazil" without backing it up with facts.
Ok quick verification if say....a former high ranking official from the CIA says so...is it a fact? Ok so we'll agree on the "Genocides dont count".

care to comment on my WWI post?
I think thats about it...
 

alphamale

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2005
Messages
1,120
Reaction score
0
Location
Southern California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The total is probably in the hundreds, in all cases being soldiers who snapped while in wars, and did not represent the policy of the goverment. This is a miniscule fraction compared to the communist soviets, chinese, and cambodians and other communists, the peerless murderers of all history, with europeans close behind, with their dictators and countess colonial killings, and all a matter of state policy. When it comes to murder, everyone else in the world are the rankest amateurs compared to the communists and europeans.
 

ProudAmerican

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
2,694
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Ok quick verification if say....a former high ranking official from the CIA says so...is it a fact? Ok so we'll agree on the "Genocides dont count".
I will take a quote from a former CIA official. sure. that works for me.
 

ProudAmerican

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
2,694
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
When it comes to murder, everyone else in the world are the rankest amateurs compared to the communists and europeans.
Davo doesnt think so. He claims America has murdered more people than anyone else.

He is the reason this thread was started.

I intend to prove he misspoke.
 

mikhail

blond bombshell
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 14, 2005
Messages
4,729
Reaction score
763
Location
uk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Its all very hazy i supose it depend how you see the laws of war alot of people call the iraq war was illegal though this isnt true depending on how you interpret it.

How many native american indians where killed when people first settled surely this was largely not in an organised war however since places became lawless its not murder.


I mean good luck trying to put a number together but nearly everyone you include will be disputed.

But if soldiers found bin laden he surrended but they shot him without trial would people care would people see it as murder.
 

ngdawg

conliberaservatarianist
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
2,149
Reaction score
24
Location
trackside
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
mikhail said:
Its all very hazy i supose it depend how you see the laws of war alot of people call the iraq war was illegal though this isnt true depending on how you interpret it.

How many native american indians where killed when people first settled surely this was largely not in an organised war however since places became lawless its not murder.


I mean good luck trying to put a number together but nearly everyone you include will be disputed.

But if soldiers found bin laden he surrended but they shot him without trial would people care would people see it as murder.
In the same vein, I quote 'The Civil War, America's bloodiest conflict, cost nearly 1,100,000 casualties and claimed more than 620,000 lives. The campaigning armies left destruction in their wake, particularly in the Southern states that bore the brunt of the fighting. Best estimates place the total number of war-time clashes in excess of 10,000, many of them large scale encounters that resulted in staggering losses for both sides'
http://www.phil.muni.cz/~vndrzl/amstudies/civilwar_stats.htm
WW1 and WW2 saw the US lose approx 450,000 total.( http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/marerror.htm ) We've basically killed more of ourselves without outside help.
 

ProudAmerican

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
2,694
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Its all very hazy i supose it depend how you see the laws of war alot of people call the iraq war was illegal though this isnt true depending on how you interpret it.
not relevant to the discussion IMO. legal or not, we are there. so I am fine with any casualties we cause there to be included in this debate. it still wont help Davos cause.

How many native american indians where killed when people first settled surely this was largely not in an organised war however since places became lawless its not murder.
no only was it not an organized war, it wasnt at the hands of America untill 1776.

I mean good luck trying to put a number together but nearly everyone you include will be disputed.
I dont mind being disputed with facts. I enjoy learning.
 

Red_Dave

Libertarian socialist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 23, 2005
Messages
6,879
Reaction score
1,715
Location
Staffs, England
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
ProudAmerican said:
It has been stated in another forum that America has murdered more people throughout history than any other country.

I believe that is a very broad statement.
I believe circumstances have to be taken into account, and I also believe the end result must be taken into account. (ie how many people were freed or liberated as a result)

lets explore.

These are the major wars or conflicts America has participated in. anyone that wishes to add to the list, please do. I wont take the discussion any further untill we have at least agreed on the list of wars / conflicts.

WWI
WWII
Korea
Vietnam
Gulf War
Afghanistan
Iraq

This is just a list of major conflicts that first come to mind. If anyone wants to add other smaller conflicts (Somalia, Grenada, etc) please list them and I will add them.
once we have a final list, we will take the first one and discuss it in depth.

I believe the assertion that America has "murdered" more people than any other country throughout history is complete nonsense.
Your forgetting that the U.S has supported 12 dictatorships in latin america. Many of which killed thousands of people. Not to mention genocidal regiumes like Israel.
 

Loxd4

Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
Messages
206
Reaction score
0
Location
South Carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
. Al-Qaeda attacked us unprovoked much like the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor said:
You ever hear that saying "to have an effect you need a cause." Well the bombing of Pearl Harbor and Al-Qaeda attacked was a effect. We got the Al-Qaeda pissed some how i dont know how.......and the Pearl Harbor had it coming for us................Ok, here goes a Scenario if Presedent Hugo shut of oil supply to the US, what would the US do...just sit back and hope for the best or attack....i think we would attack if they would come to a comprise with 24 hours......now we cut of oil to japon durning WWII when they need oil for there war machine....so they attack b/c of something we did....
 

Red_Dave

Libertarian socialist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 23, 2005
Messages
6,879
Reaction score
1,715
Location
Staffs, England
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Loxd4 said:
Ok, here goes a Scenario if Presedent Hugo shut of oil supply to the US, what would the US do...just sit back and hope for the best or attack....i think we would attack if they would come to a comprise with 24 hours......now we cut of oil to japon durning WWII when they need oil for there war machine....so they attack b/c of something we did....
im sorry but this statement amazes me im half convinced i misread it. Are you seriously saying its moraly acceptable for the U.S to overide the democratic right on the people of Venezuela to control there own resources, and forceably take there oil. Isnt that theft?
 

Loxd4

Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
Messages
206
Reaction score
0
Location
South Carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Red_Dave said:
im sorry but this statement amazes me im half convinced i misread it. Are you seriously saying its moraly acceptable for the U.S to overide the democratic right on the people of Venezuela to control there own resources, and forceably take there oil. Isnt that theft?

If Venezuela cut off there oil supply to United States of America for no good reason (which there would be no good reason). The U.S. would have to buy more oil from another county or open up there reserves or use war as an option (as did Japan in WWII), because the U.S. need oil to fuel it's economy.
And I would like to say "It would not be morally right to invited Venezuela if this happen, but remember morally come last when the will to survive kicks in.”

I am try to say that when we cut off oil to Japan in WWII, we provoke them to attack us because they did have enough oil to fuel there war machine.

Dose this make more sense now?
 

Davo

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2006
Messages
143
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Red_Dave said:
Your forgetting that the U.S has supported 12 dictatorships in latin america. Many of which killed thousands of people. Not to mention genocidal regiumes like Israel.
Can you please post the 12 dictatorships...I only know a few

Pinochet(Chile) , General Marcos Perez(Venezuela), General Maximilio Hernandez(El Salvador), Anastasio Somoza(Nicaragua), General Efrain Rios Mont(Guatemala), General Manuel Noriega (Panama), General George Rafael Videla(Argentina), Alfredo Stroessner(Paraguay), Colonel Hugo Banzer(Bolivia), Fulgencio Batista(Cuba, Responsible for the murder of 20,000 Cubans), General Humberto Branco (Brazil), Rafael Leonidas Trujillo(Dominican Republic).

11 by my count who am I missing?
 

Red_Dave

Libertarian socialist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 23, 2005
Messages
6,879
Reaction score
1,715
Location
Staffs, England
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Davo said:
11 by my count who am I missing?
That would be the Somoza's in Nicaragua. Not to mention the american funded terroist war against the Somoza's successors the Zapista Junta. Oh my bad i forgot Carlos Castillo Armas in geutamala thats 13 and counting . i imagine theres more but im not going to combine a complete list for now as that would take ages
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom