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Smoking Ban Considered for Drivers with Child Passengers......

Now whos laughing (insert and you know what).....and did you want to go back to the issue about those limitations you were sporting again?

A lawyer and former executive director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, Norman Siegel, said the proposal is "very intrusive," and noted that to withstand judicial challenges, at a minimum the city would have to show that second-hand smoke in cars has a negative health effect of minors.....snip~

"Smoking bans are a symptom of a greater problem with our government, that they can come in and regulate all kinds of lifestyle choices because they've deemed it improper," she said. "It could be anything."

"If they can come into our car, then they can come into our home," she said. "And everybody should be afraid of this, not just because of smoking.".....snip~

Council Seeks New Ban on Smoking by Parents in Cars - The New York Sun

The ACLU lawyer in the article never asserted the government lacked this power or it was a legitimate exercise of government power. In fact, the ACLU attorney hinted this may be a legitimate exercise of government power, despite its intrusiveness, and to "withstand judicial challenges, at a minimum the city would have to show that second-hand smoke in cars has a negative health effect of minors. This is not an unequivocal rebuke of this type of governmental power by the ACLU attorney.

Now, the following remarks, which you cited specifically in your post, were not made by the ACLU attorney but instead by another individual. "Smoking bans are a symptom of a greater problem with our government, that they can come in and regulate all kinds of lifestyle choices because they've deemed it improper," she said. "It could be anything."

"If they can come into our car, then they can come into our home," she said. "And everybody should be afraid of this, not just because of smoking.".....snip~


Those are not remarks attributable to the ACLU attorney but to someone else. However, the reasoning and rationale in the indented paragraph below is worth posting and should be addressed as this reasoning is the basis for this law and has, as a principle, a basis for many other laws regulating human behavior in regards to other human beings.


"Boo-hoo," he said. "You can't subject kids to 43 carcinogens and 250 poisonous chemicals and claim privacy. Get over it. Their right to privacy doesn't extend so far as to poisoning kids."

A child who spends one hour in a very smoky room is inhaling as many dangerous chemicals as if he or she smoked 10 or more cigarettes, according to the Mayo Clinic.

A U.S. Surgeon General's report from 2006 found there is sufficient evidence to infer "a causal relationship" between secondhand smoke exposure from parental smoking and lower respiratory illnesses in infants and children.

I'm inclined to agree, at this moment, with the notion the government legitimately has this kind of power. A right of privacy doesn't permit the poisoning of anyone, not just kids. A right of privacy doesn't permit exposing anyone to those poisonous chemicals, not just kids. The government has the legitimate authority to prohibit this kind of conduct because nobody has any right to engage in or exercise conduct in such a manner as to expose another to physical harm or expose them to potential physical harm. This intrusion is similar to those laws prohibiting rape, murder, battery, criminal recklessness, criminally negligent/reckless conduct, neglect of a dependent, child neglect, with each having the same common denominator of precluding physical harm inflicted upon another person or exposing a person to the risk of physical harm. (In the absence of consent for some crimes but in this case children and dependent kids cannot give consent).

It is and always has been a proper intrusion of the government into our privacy, into our lives, property, rights and freedoms to limit, proscribe, prohibit and preclude conduct resulting in physical harm to another person or potentially doing so.
 
Now whos laughing (insert and you know what).....and did you want to go back to the issue about those limitations you were sporting again?

I don't know, whose laughing?

Wherever did I declare everyone would agree with my point? I didn't. Unquestionably there are going to be people who feel differently. Are you seriously suggesting every "Constitutional lawyer" has the same view, or are you attempting to use the fallacy of appeal to authority, and doing it poorly at that by acting as if the feelings of a single individual lawyer somehow represents truth.

What's sad is that even someone educated like this, at least from your link, is offering up no real argument other than "OMG! What can they do next!" rather than any kind of legal basis for why this can't be done.
 
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Read Post 97 wherein those in this thread said there was no legal or Constitution over-reach. Do you think that helps explain it all? From the very beginning

Can you take it from where the Attorneys have it spelled out there?

Well, I am an attorney, so the fact you can reference other attorneys with an opinion on this matter isn't persuasive, especially considering that a defining characteristic of attorneys is the fact they have an opinion about virtually everything in life!

Second, in post 97, which I already responded to in my most preceding post to this one, there is 1 attorney cited in the link you provided in post number 97. The link attaches to an article citing one attorney, an ACLU attorney, and his statement cannot appropriately be characterized as an unequivocal repudiation of this kind of exercise of government authority. Rather, the ACLU attorney makes a few remarks which suggest, despite the intrusive nature of the government power, may be legitimate when at least one factor, if not others, are satisfied and the ACLU attorney then discloses this factor.

However, I am essentially repeating material I made in my most preceding post to this one so I will just defer to my last post before this one as a response to your post above.
 
I don't know, whose laughing?

Wherever did I declare everyone would agree with my point? I didn't. Unquestionably there are going to be people who feel differently. Are you seriously suggesting every "Constitutional lawyer" has the same view, or are you attempting to use the fallacy of appeal to authority, and doing it poorly at that by acting as if the feelings of a single individual lawyer somehow represents truth.

What's sad is that even someone educated like this, at least from your link, is offering up no real argument other than "OMG! What can they do next"

A lawyer and former executive director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, Norman Siegel, said the proposal is "very intrusive," and noted that to withstand judicial challenges, at a minimum the city would have to show that second-hand smoke in cars has a negative health effect of minors.....snip~

"Smoking bans are a symptom of a greater problem with our government, that they can come in and regulate all kinds of lifestyle choices because they've deemed it improper," she said. "It could be anything."

"If they can come into our car, then they can come into our home," she said. "And everybody should be afraid of this, not just because of smoking.".....snip~

Council Seeks New Ban on Smoking by Parents in Cars - The New York Sun
[/QUOTE]

Additionally, the ACLU attorney never derided this exercise of government power as impermissible, unconstitutional, or unauthorized. The ACLU attorney in the article never provided an unequivocal condemnation of this kind of government power. Rather, the ACLU attorney stated for this government power to be legitimate the government would have to, at a minimum, meet condition X, where condition X is "show that second-hand smoke in cars has a negative health effect of minors."

So the link to the article does not have some constitutional attorney, or any attorney, resoundingly condemning this law as unconstitutional or impermissible.
 
But what about my right to give lung cancer to children? Didn't any of you dumbocrats think of that?
 
Take them chillin's from people that drink, speed, race, have a boat, pool, fly, own guns, hunt, ride roller coasters, smoke pot, live on busy streets, live near manufacturing plants, eat un healthy food, fry their chicken, or have open wine bottles at home.
How dare they live their lives like they choose.
 
But what about my right to give lung cancer to children? Didn't any of you dumbocrats think of that?

I suppose a right of privacy, freedom, and liberty exists to A.) Increase your dependent child's risk of developing lung cancer/pancreatic caner or the plethora of other cancers scientifically demonstrated to increase the risk of developing those cancers or to, as you asked, B.) "to give lung cancer to children" and other cancers scientifically linked to second hand smoke.
 
Take them chillin's from people that drink, speed, race, have a boat, pool, fly, own guns, hunt, ride roller coasters, smoke pot, live on busy streets, live near manufacturing plants, eat un healthy food, fry their chicken, or have open wine bottles at home.
How dare they live their lives like they choose.

A little extreme, but certainly exaggerated, response to what we are discussing here. Some of your examples aren't analogous to the fact pattern presently being discussed and at issue in this thread.
 
The ACLU lawyer in the article never asserted the government lacked this power or it was a legitimate exercise of government power. In fact, the ACLU attorney hinted this may be a legitimate exercise of government power, despite its intrusiveness, and to "withstand judicial challenges, at a minimum the city would have to show that second-hand smoke in cars has a negative health effect of minors. This is not an unequivocal rebuke of this type of governmental power by the ACLU attorney.

Now, the following remarks, which you cited specifically in your post, were not made by the ACLU attorney but instead by another individual. "Smoking bans are a symptom of a greater problem with our government, that they can come in and regulate all kinds of lifestyle choices because they've deemed it improper," she said. "It could be anything."

"If they can come into our car, then they can come into our home," she said. "And everybody should be afraid of this, not just because of smoking.".....snip~


Those are not remarks attributable to the ACLU attorney but to someone else. However, the reasoning and rationale in the indented paragraph below is worth posting and should be addressed as this reasoning is the basis for this law and has, as a principle, a basis for many other laws regulating human behavior in regards to other human beings.


"Boo-hoo," he said. "You can't subject kids to 43 carcinogens and 250 poisonous chemicals and claim privacy. Get over it. Their right to privacy doesn't extend so far as to poisoning kids."

A child who spends one hour in a very smoky room is inhaling as many dangerous chemicals as if he or she smoked 10 or more cigarettes, according to the Mayo Clinic.

A U.S. Surgeon General's report from 2006 found there is sufficient evidence to infer "a causal relationship" between secondhand smoke exposure from parental smoking and lower respiratory illnesses in infants and children.

I'm inclined to agree, at this moment, with the notion the government legitimately has this kind of power. A right of privacy doesn't permit the poisoning of anyone, not just kids. A right of privacy doesn't permit exposing anyone to those poisonous chemicals, not just kids. The government has the legitimate authority to prohibit this kind of conduct because nobody has any right to engage in or exercise conduct in such a manner as to expose another to physical harm or expose them to potential physical harm. This intrusion is similar to those laws prohibiting rape, murder, battery, criminal recklessness, criminally negligent/reckless conduct, neglect of a dependent, child neglect, with each having the same common denominator of precluding physical harm inflicted upon another person or exposing a person to the risk of physical harm. (In the absence of consent for some crimes but in this case children and dependent kids cannot give consent).

It is and always has been a proper intrusion of the government into our privacy, into our lives, property, rights and freedoms to limit, proscribe, prohibit and preclude conduct resulting in physical harm to another person or potentially doing so.

Right to privacy or not being the best way to curb this sort of excessive intervention by the government, I can't speak to. It may very well be.

The problem is that this is in fact FAR TOO MUCH power in the hands of the government, and FAR TOO INTERVENING from the government.

What's next? A pregnant woman gets fined because she has a glass a wine? ObamaCare enables the government to dictate nearly any life decision, as they all come with medical pluses and minuses. Where does it stop? It has to stop at some point, surely.

Else why even bother with this pretense of claiming the people have any freedom?
 
A little extreme, but certainly exaggerated, response to what we are discussing here. Some of your examples aren't analogous to the fact pattern presently being discussed and at issue in this thread.

They most certainly are. Once we completely demonize smoking we must move on to the next thing.
 
Right to privacy or not being the best way to curb this sort of excessive intervention by the government, I can't speak to. It may very well be.

The problem is that this is in fact FAR TOO MUCH power in the hands of the government, and FAR TOO INTERVENING from the government.

What's next? A pregnant woman gets fined because she has a glass a wine? ObamaCare enables the government to dictate nearly any life decision, as they all come with medical pluses and minuses. Where does it stop? It has to stop at some point, surely.

Else why even bother with this pretense of claiming the people have any freedom?

What's next?

I have no idea. I am not a gypsy, a prophet, or the pythia. So I can't tell you "what's next." However, such a query is hardly germane to our dialogue and is tantamount to a slippery slope argument, although it isn't quite a slippery slope argument yet.

The problem is that this is in fact FAR TOO MUCH power in the hands of the government, and FAR TOO INTERVENING from the government. A pregnant woman gets fined because she has a glass a wine?

Why? How? How is it meaningfully different from those other laws I referenced? Rape, murder, battery, criminal recklessness, criminally negligent/reckless conduct, neglect of a dependent, child neglect, each having the same common denominator of precluding physical harm inflicted upon another person or exposing a person to the risk of physical harm. (In the absence of consent for some crimes but in this case children and dependent kids cannot give consent).

Now, I will say a mere risk of physical or bodily harm, or serious bodily/physical harm, may not be sufficient as such a risk is inherent by merely being alive, being human, and being imperfect. But, we know, scientifically, being exposed to second hand smoke isn't some "mere risk." There is scientific data, research, papers, findings, etcetera, showing and demonstrating this is not a mere risk like associated with flying, certain kinds of skiing, certain kinds of boating, etcetera.

Else why even bother with this pretense of claiming the people have any freedom?

I addressed this in my prior posts.
 
I don't know, whose laughing?

Wherever did I declare everyone would agree with my point? I didn't. Unquestionably there are going to be people who feel differently. Are you seriously suggesting every "Constitutional lawyer" has the same view, or are you attempting to use the fallacy of appeal to authority, and doing it poorly at that by acting as if the feelings of a single individual lawyer somehow represents truth.

What's sad is that even someone educated like this, at least from your link, is offering up no real argument other than "OMG! What can they do next!" rather than any kind of legal basis for why this can't be done.



Whats sad.....is you couldn't acknowledge the Legal argument brought by an attorney wherein you thought, they had no argument. Not even one from a Civil Liberties Attorney.

Which you brought all up in 3 posts about the Fallacy of Attorneys.

Also there are others that say the same thing about over-reach. I take it a pageful wouldn't be enough, huh!
 
The ACLU lawyer in the article never asserted the government lacked this power or it was a legitimate exercise of government power. In fact, the ACLU attorney hinted this may be a legitimate exercise of government power, despite its intrusiveness, and to "withstand judicial challenges, at a minimum the city would have to show that second-hand smoke in cars has a negative health effect of minors. This is not an unequivocal rebuke of this type of governmental power by the ACLU attorney.

Now, the following remarks, which you cited specifically in your post, were not made by the ACLU attorney but instead by another individual. "Smoking bans are a symptom of a greater problem with our government, that they can come in and regulate all kinds of lifestyle choices because they've deemed it improper," she said. "It could be anything."

"If they can come into our car, then they can come into our home," she said. "And everybody should be afraid of this, not just because of smoking.".....snip~


Those are not remarks attributable to the ACLU attorney but to someone else. However, the reasoning and rationale in the indented paragraph below is worth posting and should be addressed as this reasoning is the basis for this law and has, as a principle, a basis for many other laws regulating human behavior in regards to other human beings.


"Boo-hoo," he said. "You can't subject kids to 43 carcinogens and 250 poisonous chemicals and claim privacy. Get over it. Their right to privacy doesn't extend so far as to poisoning kids."

A child who spends one hour in a very smoky room is inhaling as many dangerous chemicals as if he or she smoked 10 or more cigarettes, according to the Mayo Clinic.

A U.S. Surgeon General's report from 2006 found there is sufficient evidence to infer "a causal relationship" between secondhand smoke exposure from parental smoking and lower respiratory illnesses in infants and children.

I'm inclined to agree, at this moment, with the notion the government legitimately has this kind of power. A right of privacy doesn't permit the poisoning of anyone, not just kids. A right of privacy doesn't permit exposing anyone to those poisonous chemicals, not just kids. The government has the legitimate authority to prohibit this kind of conduct because nobody has any right to engage in or exercise conduct in such a manner as to expose another to physical harm or expose them to potential physical harm. This intrusion is similar to those laws prohibiting rape, murder, battery, criminal recklessness, criminally negligent/reckless conduct, neglect of a dependent, child neglect, with each having the same common denominator of precluding physical harm inflicted upon another person or exposing a person to the risk of physical harm. (In the absence of consent for some crimes but in this case children and dependent kids cannot give consent).

It is and always has been a proper intrusion of the government into our privacy, into our lives, property, rights and freedoms to limit, proscribe, prohibit and preclude conduct resulting in physical harm to another person or potentially doing so.

Well I did go with Very Intrusive from the Attorney.....but the Women from the Smokers Rights organization was stating what their position was and is.
 
They most certainly are. Once we completely demonize smoking we must move on to the next thing.

No they aren't analogous because the risk isn't the same, this isn't about "demonizing smoking," data exits showing its harmful effects on human health, including 2nd hand smoke.
 
Well I did go with Very Intrusive from the Attorney.....but the Women from the Smokers Rights organization was stating what their position was and is.

Yeah, well, Ms. Sisk, the representative from the "Smokers Rights organization" didn't articulate a compelling or persuasive argument against this kind of government power. She merely warns us to be concerned, worried, scared, hints at a slippery slope argument of it won't cease here but before we know it the government will be telling us how to sit on our couches while we watch television. She didn't have a good argument, she didn't espouse a rational or reasonable position, and she certainly didn't address or refute the other points made in the article, some of which I included in my post.
 
Take them chillin's from people that drink, speed, race, have a boat, pool, fly, own guns, hunt, ride roller coasters, smoke pot, live on busy streets, live near manufacturing plants, eat un healthy food, fry their chicken, or have open wine bottles at home.
How dare they live their lives like they choose.

Cool. Now care to give a comment on the actual substance of this topic? Because I'll give you a hint...

Drinking, speeding, racing, having a boat, owning a pool, flying, owning guns, riding roller coasters, smoking pot, living on busy streets, living near manufacturing plants, eating unhealthy foods, frying chicken, or having open wine bottles have ZERO to do with the law.

Additionally, the law is talking about imposing a small fine, not "taking children away" so I'm not sure what you're talking about there either.

Perhaps you were mistakenly thinking this was an entirely different law?
 
Whats sad.....is you couldn't acknowledge the Legal argument brought by an attorney wherein you thought, they had no argument. Not even one from a Civil Liberties Attorney.

He didn't bring forward a legal argument. He presented NO legal argument in that article as to why the government does not have the authority to do that. His only argument was that he feels the government shouldn't do it and that it's an infringement, based seemingly on nothing but a fear that it'll lead to more infringement.

Hell, on the contrary...rather than give a legal reasoning why the government CAN'T do this he actually gave a suggestion of why they can:

A lawyer and former executive director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, Norman Siegel, said the proposal is "very intrusive," and noted that to withstand judicial challenges, at a minimum the city would have to show that second-hand smoke in cars has a negative health effect of minors.

And as your article notes

A causal relationship was found between secondhand smoke exposure from parental smoking and lower respiratory illnesses in infants and children, according to a Surgeon General's report. The nature of the relationship was misstated in an article on page 1 of yesterday's New York Sun.
 
He didn't bring forward a legal argument. He presented NO legal argument in that article as to why the government does not have the authority to do that. His only argument was that he feels the government shouldn't do it and that it's an infringement, based seemingly on nothing but a fear that it'll lead to more infringement.

Based on what.....that he was just musing along in NY? :roll:
 
Based on what.....that he was just musing along in NY? :roll:

Did you even read your own story?

Here's his only stated reasons for opposition to the law:

First, your activist miss Silk.

"Smoking bans are a symptom of a greater problem with our government," --> That's not a legal argument, that's simply him stating an opinion.

"that they can come in and regulate all kinds of lifestyle choices because they've deemed it improper" --> That's him claiming what the government does, but it in no way is any kind of argument suggesting they don't have the ability in this specific case to do so.

Now the ACLU Lawyer Mr. Siegel

"very intrusive" --> Again, that's his opinion. He gives no supporting argument as to why it's intrusive, or more importantly, why it's unconstitutionally or unlawfully intrusive.

He also stated:

"at a minimum the city would have to show that second-hand smoke in cars has a negative health effect of minors." --> The only bit of actual legal argument that's been made in that piece...and it's actually one MAKING my case, unless you're suggesting second-hand smoke in cars can't have the potential for negative health effects on a minor (which your article itself acknowledges, it can)

Basically, all your article shows is a bunch of people giving an opinion that this is an over reach or intrusive and that it's bad because of that, but gives zero legal reasoning or argument what so ever as to why the government CAN'T do this and no argument or reasoning as to why the government SHOULDN'T do this other than "it's bad" and "it could lead to worse".
 
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Seat-belt laws are mandatory and so unenforceable, they have to run TV AD's saying, "click it or ticket" to try and scare people into using them.

There would have to be a ratio of 1 cop per 10 civilians to come close to complete enforcement. ;)

The rest of the story.

Well, if being mandatory means unenforceable then Obamacare is doomed. I am afraid I do not understand the statement, how can being mandatory lead to unenforeable?

If you are saying that no one gets a ticket or fine because they did not comply, I do not believe you. What is "complete enforcement"? How many speeders need to be caught to justify the intrusion into human rights of seed limits; should not the guy with the $250,000.00 Ferrari be allowed to drive as fast as he wants in a free society?

I suggest what you are complaining about is less enforcement than you would want to justify what you see as a denial of human rights, which is ludicrous because you resists ANY enforcement.

If you are saying that Americans are more lawless than other countries, I would tend to agree based on experience. Seat belt laws have been mandatory in Canada since the early 70's and it is rare to see anyone without one, whereas border communities have made a nice revenue stream targeting American plates for a seat belt check.

Thank you for that. Every dime of fine, is a dime I don't have to pay in taxes.
 
Did you even read your own story?

Here's his only stated reasons for opposition to the law:

First, your activist miss Silk.

"Smoking bans are a symptom of a greater problem with our government," --> That's not a legal argument, that's simply him stating an opinion.

"that they can come in and regulate all kinds of lifestyle choices because they've deemed it improper" --> That's him claiming what the government does, but it in no way is any kind of argument suggesting they don't have the ability in this specific case to do so.

Now the ACLU Lawyer Mr. Siegel

"very intrusive" --> Again, that's his opinion. He gives no supporting argument as to why it's intrusive, or more importantly, why it's unconstitutionally or unlawfully intrusive.

He also stated:

"at a minimum the city would have to show that second-hand smoke in cars has a negative health effect of minors." --> The only bit of actual legal argument that's been made in that piece...and it's actually one MAKING my case, unless you're suggesting second-hand smoke in cars can't have the potential for negative health effects on a minor (which your article itself acknowledges, it can)

Basically, all your article shows is a bunch of people giving an opinion that this is an over reach or intrusive and that it's bad because of that, but gives zero legal reasoning or argument what so ever as to why the government CAN'T do this and no argument or reasoning as to why the government SHOULDN'T do this other than "it's bad" and "it could lead to worse".



Someone already explained to you about being in an enclosed place with kids. Now if you can't figure it out that the same argument would be used for buildings and homes.....Then you don't or just can't comprehend it.

First.....they went with Bars and restaurants. Then they took it to the Work Place. Now they have taken it to other public places as well. Planes, Zoo's and Designated areas, now on trains.

Now even some business not even hiring smokers....and or getting rid of smokers.

So the progression has increased into peoples choice and lifestyles.....leaving the only two places left. Private Vehicles and Homes.

Which again Now today.....they even have condo units and apartments with no smoking.

So when you get done downplaying how it isn't intrusive and or an overreach. Then its because you choose to be blind.
 
Well, if being mandatory means unenforceable then Obamacare is doomed. I am afraid I do not understand the statement, how can being mandatory lead to unenforeable?

If you are saying that no one gets a ticket or fine because they did not comply, I do not believe you. What is "complete enforcement"? How many speeders need to be caught to justify the intrusion into human rights of seed limits; should not the guy with the $250,000.00 Ferrari be allowed to drive as fast as he wants in a free society?

I suggest what you are complaining about is less enforcement than you would want to justify what you see as a denial of human rights, which is ludicrous because you resists ANY enforcement.

If you are saying that Americans are more lawless than other countries, I would tend to agree based on experience. Seat belt laws have been mandatory in Canada since the early 70's and it is rare to see anyone without one, whereas border communities have made a nice revenue stream targeting American plates for a seat belt check.

Thank you for that. Every dime of fine, is a dime I don't have to pay in taxes.

I'm saying, you can waste time and money making all kinds of "jaywalking" laws that add up to beans. They're not worth the effort it takes to write them, more less enforce them. It amounts to government overreach and control freak behavior.
 
Cool. Now care to give a comment on the actual substance of this topic? Because I'll give you a hint...

Drinking, speeding, racing, having a boat, owning a pool, flying, owning guns, riding roller coasters, smoking pot, living on busy streets, living near manufacturing plants, eating unhealthy foods, frying chicken, or having open wine bottles have ZERO to do with the law.

Additionally, the law is talking about imposing a small fine, not "taking children away" so I'm not sure what you're talking about there either.

Perhaps you were mistakenly thinking this was an entirely different law?
No law stops at its "intended" purpose.
 
I'm saying, you can waste time and money making all kinds of "jaywalking" laws that add up to beans. They're not worth the effort it takes to write them, more less enforce them. It amounts to government overreach and control freak behavior.


well, if you consider stopping the endangering the lives of infants a state intrusion then that's OK, but using the excuse of ineffective law is a weak argument, jaywalking laws do work, just not well enough to suit you who doesn't want any law at all.
 
well, if you consider stopping the endangering the lives of infants a state intrusion then that's OK, but using the excuse of ineffective law is a weak argument, jaywalking laws do work, just not well enough to suit you who doesn't want any law at all.

Well, if you want to tell people how to raise their kids, then maybe should pay to help in supporting them also?

Not just ineffective but unneeded and obtrusive laws.
 
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