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Since the Christians have distributed religious material in a public school...

Yeah, why is it the poorest always seem to have the most kids i wonder...It's very often the case, though individual circumstance varies. Some just had their husband leave or whatever and suddenly struggle to get by.

A lot of it is culture. There is a particularly insidious ghetto sub-culture that teaches people that having kids is a way to be loved and to prove your worth. It also teaches people not to get married, which is why the ghettos are filled with single-parent households at an absurdly high rate. Ending those damaging sub-cultures is paramount to getting people out of poverty but they fight it at every turn. Most of these single-parent women have never had a husband.
 
Eighty-years after the Declaration, why was Lincoln "one of the only people who" thought slavery should be abolished? Why did the Supreme Court rule slavery legal in Dred Scott? Why? Because the rest of the country was wrong and Lincoln was correct.

Don't sit on your couch defending tyranny, like the slaveowners of Lincoln's day? You can see the truth in my words. Take up the (rhetorical) sword, put on the whole-armor, go forth and correct this injustice, too long ignored. Be on the right side of history. Improve life for your country and your country's future. Eliminate government-run public schools and replace them with ESA-vouchered private schools.

So in this case you're comparing public schools existing to slavery, and yourself to Lincoln. The problem here is that you're not Lincoln, you're a guy on the internet that hasn't been able to show any respectable lawyer or politician who thinks public schools are unconstitutional, and you've shown zero court cases where your beliefs have been presented.

Your argument seems to be "it's self-evident", and yet you're the only one this is self-evident to.
 
I specified SAT and ACT -style testing. Independent testing with cheating much more strictly prohibited than public schools.

I would be fine with something like that. I also want mandatory testing of *ALL* homeschooled students to make sure they are actually getting properly educated and learning what they are supposed to know. If you don't pass the tests, you go right back into the regular school system.

It's fundamentally impossible to "walk that line," because "walking that line" necessitates making judgements regarding inclusion (of religious tenets and principles) and exclusion. Take the big-bang theory, for example. I've said I want my child taught how Christianity meshes with science. How they are compatible. How science's "In the beginning..." matches well with Judeo-Christian "In the beginning." But, others may not want those ideas taught or they want their version taught. Still others want no-religion taught. One can't simultaneously teach all the religions and none of the religions. Yet, we each have a right to choose our own path, according to the constitution? Government-run public school can never meet the constitutional requirement. It either teaches some, none or all religions and that simply violates the constitution. There's no avoiding violation. There's no "walking the line."

I entirely disagree, I think it's very easy to walk that line. You want to apply Christian views, entirely subjective opinions of Christian views I might add, and declare that anything you can arbitrarily decide is religious must mean that the schools are incapable of being untainted by religion. The courts have already decided what is acceptable and what is not, I'll stick with that for the moment.

We should care a lot more about geniuses than dummies. Private sector is much more able to accomplish this without stove-piping losers.

No, we should care about everyone because in the end, the geniuses are going to wind up taking care of the dummies whether they like it or not. It is much easier to fix the dummies and make them useful than it is to provide them lifetime care because they never got the education when it was available.

By paying 50% enrollment and 50% upon passing the test, private industry is properly incentivized. If a student can't progress, the troublemakers will be largely baby-sat, just like they are today. But, if the private school can motivate or find some way to get the troublemaking loser to pass his test, they make more money. This financial incentive is a prime-mover and is expected to reduce the troublemaking dummy class to a minimum.

Or it gives them an incentive to cut costs in the front end and survive solely on the 50% they get up front. This also discourages new schools from getting started because they can't afford to operate on half-a-budget for the majority of the year. What do the teachers do, not eat until they hopefully get their big bonus at the end?

We want freedom on both sides; freedom for the provider and freedom for the buyer (students). Selectivity is great. Be as selective as you want (within racial civil rights limits). The financial incentives favor otherwise, but both buyer and seller should be as exclusive as they want.

I don't want freedom for students. I want results. Students are a product. I want them coming out the other end of the educational factory as educated, productive members of society, capable of caring for themselves and making a financial contribution to the nation. That's what the educational system is supposed to provide. Anything that gets in the way of that is a problem. That doesn't mean that within that context, you can't have choices and options but those are going to be inherently limited to ensure the end goal is met.
 
That's not a solution at all, it's just an avoidance of the problem.
If you call removing the problem 'avoidance', sure.

There's only a problem because the government is running the school. If the government isn't running the school, there's no problem. The school can make whatever policy on the matter it feels is appropriate and parents can either abide or take their business elsewhere.
 
If you call removing the problem 'avoidance', sure.

There's only a problem because the government is running the school. If the government isn't running the school, there's no problem. The school can make whatever policy on the matter it feels is appropriate and parents can either abide or take their business elsewhere.

No, because it isn't removing the problem, you still have all of these other kids that are left behind in public school that need to be dealt with. You're ignoring that problem. You're pretending it goes away but it doesn't. All kids need to be educated, not just the ones with the money to go to private schools, whose parents care enough to put them in private schools, but ALL of them. The ONLY reason private schools succeed at all is because they get to ignore all of those kids that public schools are forced to take. Let's see a private school be forced to take all the drugged out kids, the kids with behavioral problems, the kids with kids of their own and still perform at the levels you think that they perform at. It isn't the government, it's the kids!
 
Eighty-years after the Declaration, why was Lincoln "one of the only people who" thought slavery should be abolished? Why did the Supreme Court rule slavery legal in Dred Scott? Why? Because the rest of the country was wrong and Lincoln was correct.

Don't sit on your couch defending tyranny, like the slaveowners of Lincoln's day? You can see the truth in my words. Take up the (rhetorical) sword, put on the whole-armor, go forth and correct this injustice, too long ignored. Be on the right side of history. Improve life for your country and your country's future. Eliminate government-run public schools and replace them with ESA-vouchered private schools.

I think you need to check your math. 2014 - 1864 > 88. Moreover, Lincoln wasn't the only abolitionist by a long shot, nor was he the first.
 
No, because it isn't removing the problem, you still have all of these other kids that are left behind in public school that need to be dealt with. You're ignoring that problem.
Because that's not within the scope of this thread.

This thread is about religious material in a school, and yes a voucher system fixes that problem. If this thread were about privatizing school per-se then we could look at the broader picture, but here that's thread-jacking.
 
The OP is not about excluding religion. It is about including all religions. If one form of religion is allowed in a public school, then other sorts of religion have to be allowed as well. That's fair, isn't it?

Or, is it your opinion that your religion should be allowed into public schools to the exclusion of others?

We've already covered the built-in conflict, but we can cover it again for those too lazy to read the thread...

How exactly does including "other sorts of religion" work? Would you have the children first pray to one God, then another? Might there be some objection to that model?

Wiki lists over a thousand documented religions, although one can expect many more. So, we teach a thousand perspectives on each science or math topic? And how do we weigh the time spent on each of the thousand? By number of adherents in the world? Or maybe within the country? So, when science introduces the Big-Bang theory and each citizen has a right to have his religious interpretation presented, do we go through all one-thousand religious points of view? Or does government somehow edit the list down and make religious judgements regarding which religious view is valid or not?

One quickly sees that presenting all views is A) not possible and B) still contrary to the constitution, because religious judgement is required in each and every case, issue or scientific principle presented.

This invariably leads back to the circular argument where the liberal says, "don't present any religious viewpoint." Which is where we started and where we've proven over and over - is unconstitutional.
 
So in this case you're comparing public schools existing to slavery, and yourself to Lincoln. The problem here is that you're not Lincoln, you're a guy on the internet that hasn't been able to show any respectable lawyer or politician who thinks public schools are unconstitutional, and you've shown zero court cases where your beliefs have been presented.

Your argument seems to be "it's self-evident", and yet you're the only one this is self-evident to.

There've been no valid counter-arguments, because there are no valid counter-arguments. "We're violating the constitution, because we've always violated the constitution," is your argument? Good one. Keep defending tyranny. Is that what Tesla would do? Ignore logic and support tyranny?
 
We've already covered the built-in conflict, but we can cover it again for those too lazy to read the thread...

How exactly does including "other sorts of religion" work? Would you have the children first pray to one God, then another? Might there be some objection to that model?

Wiki lists over a thousand documented religions, although one can expect many more. So, we teach a thousand perspectives on each science or math topic? And how do we weigh the time spent on each of the thousand? By number of adherents in the world? Or maybe within the country? So, when science introduces the Big-Bang theory and each citizen has a right to have his religious interpretation presented, do we go through all one-thousand religious points of view? Or does government somehow edit the list down and make religious judgements regarding which religious view is valid or not?

One quickly sees that presenting all views is A) not possible and B) still contrary to the constitution, because religious judgement is required in each and every case, issue or scientific principle presented.

This invariably leads back to the circular argument where the liberal says, "don't present any religious viewpoint." Which is where we started and where we've proven over and over - is unconstitutional.

It's unconstitutional to not have the government teach your kid religious values? Tell me more.

Math doesn't require a "religious judgment." If you think you've "proven" that, you're delusional.
 
Government "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

The wording could not be clearer. The government can't establish (include one version of religion over another), nor can it exclude religion in public schools. Private schools are free to teach any way they like, but government can't.

One of the things I really respect and appreciate about the founders (vs today's hacks), is that they intentionally wrote the constitution and early law in very straightforward language every man can understand. There are no lawyer tricks that may be employed, because the common man can read for himself. The more complicated the language, the more government and especially leftists, twist it to increase their power and authority. Not so in this case. Every man can read those simple words of the First Amendment and know government schools violate them by inclusion or exclusion of religion.

You're confusing exercise of religion with teaching religion. The government can't prevent children from being religious, but it doesn't have to teach them. Why is the government legally obligated to spend money teaching your children Christian beliefs?
 
Why is the government legally obligated to spend money teaching your children Christian beliefs?
Is the government obligated, for anyone to answer why it's obligated?

When you ask why, you're presuming the premise to be true, because it's also the premise of your question. What laws did you already read which lead you to the conclusion that the government is obligated to teach religion?
 
Is the government obligated, for anyone to answer why it's obligated?

When you ask why, you're presuming the premise to be true, because it's also the premise of your question. What laws did you already read which lead you to the conclusion that the government is obligated to teach religion?

The poster I am responding to has concluded that it is unconstitutional if the government doesn't teach religion in public schools. I am trying to get him to explain and defend this absurd idea. He literally stated it is a violation of the first amendment to include or exclude religion. So apparently the first amendment is impossible to adhere to. ****, I don't know, it's his idea.
 
I would be fine with something like that. I also want mandatory testing of *ALL* homeschooled students to make sure they are actually getting properly educated and learning what they are supposed to know. If you don't pass the tests, you go right back into the regular school system.

Yes, homeschooled must also pass the same test, administered by SAT, ACT, etc. However, failing the test leads to enrollment in a private school, because there will be no more public schools. Public schools fail the constitutional test, whether there's a voucher system in place or not.


I entirely disagree, I think it's very easy to walk that line. You want to apply Christian views, entirely subjective opinions of Christian views I might add, and declare that anything you can arbitrarily decide is religious must mean that the schools are incapable of being untainted by religion. The courts have already decided what is acceptable and what is not, I'll stick with that for the moment.

Either one adheres to the constitution or they don't. There's no such thing as, "we tried to compromise." Yes, we free citizens get to declare almost anything religious. Just as public school has abused us with their global-warming religion in math classes, there is simply no avoiding religion in schools. More importantly, it is our right to demand our children be taught religious viewpoints simultaneously with scientific and other principles. Government's interest is educated children, and as long as kids pass the tests, they are deemed educated. The religious side belongs to the individual and government has no business involving itself.


No, we should care about everyone because in the end, the geniuses are going to wind up taking care of the dummies whether they like it or not. It is much easier to fix the dummies and make them useful than it is to provide them lifetime care because they never got the education when it was available.

The squeaky wheel gets the oil. For too long, liberals have focussed attention and resources on troublemakers. On those that can't or won't learn. Those days are over. Every student gets the same allotment. $12k per student per year of knowledge obtained. Completely equal. Except that under the new ESA-voucher system, schools will have an incentive to graduate students faster. The sooner students learn, the sooner the school gets paid. This will shift the focus to the smarter students. Every student still receives the same total resources, but now we pay attention to the geniuses first. Laggards and dullards still receive their fair share of resources, but we exalt the winners above the losers. As it should be. As it will be.


Or it gives them an incentive to cut costs in the front end and survive solely on the 50% they get up front. This also discourages new schools from getting started because they can't afford to operate on half-a-budget for the majority of the year. What do the teachers do, not eat until they hopefully get their big bonus at the end?

The financial incentive is to graduate students. Invariably, there will be students who can't or won't graduate. As there are today. Instead of pouring in resources to losers (at the expense of winners), we allow the incentives to run their course. Schools will arise that focus on the troublemakers. They will develop new and unique methods of reaching the losers, not out of the goodness of their liberal hearts, but because there is a cash incentive to do so. Let the market fix these kids. Trust the market. Setup the incentives properly and the graduation rate will skyrocket. As will America's world ranking.


I don't want freedom for students. I want results. Students are a product. I want them coming out the other end of the educational factory as educated, productive members of society, capable of caring for themselves and making a financial contribution to the nation. That's what the educational system is supposed to provide. Anything that gets in the way of that is a problem. That doesn't mean that within that context, you can't have choices and options but those are going to be inherently limited to ensure the end goal is met.

Nothing produces better results than the free-market, properly incentivized.

Students themselves have very little freedom. It's parent's freedom that counts first and foremost. Parents freedom flows down to the child. This is one of the biggest problems of why this constitutional issue hasn't been addressed already. Because courts look at children and dismiss them as not having rights. But parents have a religious right to have their children trained as they see fit, within the restriction that the child pass the SAT/ACT test.

If adults were similarly compelled to attend public schools, this constitutional issue would have been addressed and solved decades ago.
 
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I think you need to check your math. 2014 - 1864 > 88. Moreover, Lincoln wasn't the only abolitionist by a long shot, nor was he the first.

Dred Scott was argued in 1856 and decided in 1857. By 1864, Lincoln had plenty of support. My "eighty" was rounded to the period around Dred Scott. Thanks for the math lesson, though. Another public-school graduate?
 
The poster I am responding to has concluded that it is unconstitutional if the government doesn't teach religion in public schools. I am trying to get him to explain and defend this absurd idea. He literally stated it is a violation of the first amendment to include or exclude religion. So apparently the first amendment is impossible to adhere to. ****, I don't know, it's his idea.
Deliberately excluding religion is prohibiting the free exercise of religion. There is no correct action a public school system can take, not even non-action.

The only solution is to dissolve public education. Only private institutions can deliberately include or exclude religions.
 
It's unconstitutional to not have the government teach your kid religious values? Tell me more.

From the first Amendment: "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What part of "prohibiting the free exercise thereof." is unclear to you? Just because government builds four walls and calls it a school, doesn't eliminate my right of free exercise. Especially when there's a simple (and more effective) method of teaching available that doesn't involve government control of religious teachings. Private schools and ESA-vouchers.

Government cannot compel (with force) my child to attend a school and indoctrinate him-her. Regardless their claim of "excluding religion," because A) I have a right to teach my child the religious implications of supposedly non-religious topics (such as big-bang theory) and B) Government has no constitutional authority to run schools. Why is government running schools? Where did they get the authority? And when a direct conflict between the constitutional requirement to "make no law" and the extra-constitutional role of running schools conflict, why does the constitution get torn asunder? Why doesn't government simply give up running the the schools it had no business operating in the first place?

Math doesn't require a "religious judgment." If you think you've "proven" that, you're delusional.

I (and others) previously showed the "math" problems public schools use to indoctrinate their global-warming religion. Please read the thread, because the rest of the readers know how ridiculous this argument is. What makes people think they can jump in six-hundred posts into a thread and suddenly introduce ideas that haven't been repeatedly brought up and dealt with? Maybe you get lucky, but invariably one looks like a fool. An arrogant fool.
 
Is the government obligated, for anyone to answer why it's obligated?

The government requires educated children, therefore the government pays.

It currently costs $12k per child per year (on average) for education. That $12k must be reallocated to Education Savings Accounts in the individual child's name (beneficiary) and controlled by the parent. It won't cost the taxpayer a penny more (or less) for religious freedom. Most parents may be expected to choose religiously neutral schools, but that's none of the government's or liberal's concern. Not their decision. Choice of school is solely the parent's decision.
 
Deliberately excluding religion is prohibiting the free exercise of religion. There is no correct action a public school system can take, not even non-action.

The only solution is to dissolve public education. Only private institutions can deliberately include or exclude religions.

I think we've found the smartest man on the forum. Congratulations. Private schooling somewhere along the way, no doubt?
 
Deliberately excluding religion is prohibiting the free exercise of religion. There is no correct action a public school system can take, not even non-action.

The only solution is to dissolve public education. Only private institutions can deliberately include or exclude religions.

Which laws or court decisions says that "Deliberately excluding religion is prohibiting the free exercise of religion?" Students are free to exercise their religion, just as they are entitled to speak freely, at appropriate times, which is not during most classes when they should be listening. During recess and other free periods they can pray or advocate all they want.
 
Which laws or court decisions says that "Deliberately excluding religion is prohibiting the free exercise of religion?" Students are free to exercise their religion, just as they are entitled to speak freely, at appropriate times, which is not during most classes when they should be listening. During recess and other free periods they can pray or advocate all they want.

The question is far more serious than "praying." It is a question of how teachings are presented to our children? Does school tell the child one thing and the parent is required to chase down every thought or idea presented at the end of the day and tell the child, "now Johnny, I know your teacher told you x, but keep in mind the context y?" No. Government has no right to explain the big-bang as an atheistic explosion out of nothingness, when I may want my child to know that it exploded due to God's word? Or the Buddhist might wish to explain that while there might have been an explosion, the universe has exploded and collapsed forever, without beginning or end? These teachings are for the parent to decide. And whether you like it or not, the constitution guarantees government stay out of it.

So, if even something as simple as the big-bang theory raises religious concerns, how can anything be taught without the right of individuals to put them in the religious context of their choice? Excluding all religious discussion is therefore, not in keeping with the constitutional right of parents to raise their children in the religion of their choice.

Government "shall make no law..." No law including religion and no law excluding religion.
 
We've already covered the built-in conflict, but we can cover it again for those too lazy to read the thread...

How exactly does including "other sorts of religion" work? Would you have the children first pray to one God, then another? Might there be some objection to that model?

Wiki lists over a thousand documented religions, although one can expect many more. So, we teach a thousand perspectives on each science or math topic? And how do we weigh the time spent on each of the thousand? By number of adherents in the world? Or maybe within the country? So, when science introduces the Big-Bang theory and each citizen has a right to have his religious interpretation presented, do we go through all one-thousand religious points of view? Or does government somehow edit the list down and make religious judgements regarding which religious view is valid or not?

One quickly sees that presenting all views is A) not possible and B) still contrary to the constitution, because religious judgement is required in each and every case, issue or scientific principle presented.

This invariably leads back to the circular argument where the liberal says, "don't present any religious viewpoint." Which is where we started and where we've proven over and over - is unconstitutional.

and the "conservative" says, what? Only present my religious viewpoint?

And that isn't against the Constitution, really?
 
Dred Scott was argued in 1856 and decided in 1857. By 1864, Lincoln had plenty of support. My "eighty" was rounded to the period around Dred Scott. Thanks for the math lesson, though. Another public-school graduate?

Yes, they taught us to subtract. They also taught us that slavery was a contentious issue from the very beginning of the republic.

Sorry to hear you missed out on those lessons. Maybe they were too busy teaching you about Jesus.
 
A lot of it is culture. There is a particularly insidious ghetto sub-culture that teaches people that having kids is a way to be loved and to prove your worth. It also teaches people not to get married, which is why the ghettos are filled with single-parent households at an absurdly high rate. Ending those damaging sub-cultures is paramount to getting people out of poverty but they fight it at every turn. Most of these single-parent women have never had a husband.

Rural areas as well are full of single moms with 3+ kids. The town i'm from had under 700 population, including well over 400 in k-12. That might seem insignificant compared to overcrowded city ghetto, but i just described half the state.

Unsurprisingly, few showed up for once a year parent-teacher conference. Their preachers encouraged them to pop out as many kids as possible, and their marriages fell apart by the time the 1st kid was 5. Being poor and prone to outbursts, it's like they don't know how else to live.

Indeed, the culture we need to change is the mentality that everyone must have kids. China does this by enforcing a 1 child policy that denies education to the 2nd+ kid. I don't find such cruelty towards the kids appealing though. Perhaps just sterilizing those who have crap genes or are unable to support themselves, let along offspring.
 
From the first Amendment: "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What part of "prohibiting the free exercise thereof." is unclear to you? Just because government builds four walls and calls it a school, doesn't eliminate my right of free exercise. Especially when there's a simple (and more effective) method of teaching available that doesn't involve government control of religious teachings. Private schools and ESA-vouchers.

Government cannot compel (with force) my child to attend a school and indoctrinate him-her. Regardless their claim of "excluding religion," because A) I have a right to teach my child the religious implications of supposedly non-religious topics (such as big-bang theory) and B) Government has no constitutional authority to run schools. Why is government running schools? Where did they get the authority? And when a direct conflict between the constitutional requirement to "make no law" and the extra-constitutional role of running schools conflict, why does the constitution get torn asunder? Why doesn't government simply give up running the the schools it had no business operating in the first place?



I (and others) previously showed the "math" problems public schools use to indoctrinate their global-warming religion. Please read the thread, because the rest of the readers know how ridiculous this argument is. What makes people think they can jump in six-hundred posts into a thread and suddenly introduce ideas that haven't been repeatedly brought up and dealt with? Maybe you get lucky, but invariably one looks like a fool. An arrogant fool.

Your argument is inconsistent. If your real point is "I don't think government should run schools," stick with that. Don't try to toss in all this contradictory stuff about how the government can't indoctrinate your child while simultaneously demanding the government indoctrinate my child with your religion. The government does run schools. And while they do, they can't push religion in it.

Calling global warming a religion is nonsense that isn't even worth discussing.
 
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