Pretty much this. Downside is that we as a society say we hold rogue cops accountable, but we actually rarely do.Yes, if necessary. It should be based on the situation though. Enough force to subdue the person. It is never as simple as, "well he wasn't putting up a fight, he wasn't hurting anyone". Not cooperating with the police when they are trying to arrest or even detain you requires the police act on that. Some police do apply too much force for particular situations, but the majority are not. Those police who do apply excessive force should be punished. But it has to be based on the case and based on the actual information of the case, not speculation or assumptions.
Lethal force should be applied only when there is an actual threat. However, I believe some people are wrongfully trying to attach lethal force to forces that are not normally lethal. Other circumstances are what led to the death in pretty much all those cases. That doesn't mean that police should not be mindful of those other circumstances or their potential. It means that it is wrong to claim that something is lethal force just because it contributed to or even ended in a death because of how such force was used.
Pretty much any force can be lethal, but lethal force is going to be lethal the vast majority of the time it is used, not just in rare instances.
Pretty much this. Downside is that we as a society say we hold rogue cops accountable, but we actually rarely do.
Everyone wants to side with the police in issues like this until its them. What is it that you feel, when a cop turns on her lights behind you? Isn't it fear?
Why are we afraid of public servants? Is it because they've gotten out of hand? They beat up people for no reason? they shoot unarmed people dead instead of using their utility belt full of non-lethal gadgets??
No, not all cops are bad or misuse their misguided "authority" (NULL), but when we let even one of them get away with hurting, yes, even a criminal, then we give them permission to shoot at our kids when they disagree with the cops.
to beat up our parents when they want to know why they are being stopped/detained.
to steal money from our fellow citizens without regard to their fourth amendment rights.
Can you seriously back a police state? What about when it shows up at your door?
When it is blatant, we do. But in many cases it becomes a double edged sword. It leads to cops questioning their level of force to an extent that puts them and possibly the public at risk when someone isn't subdued that should have been because the officer is more worried about how much force is "proper" and not going to potentially get them brought up on charges of murder because someone died due to a combination of circumstances that included their use of force.
Hyperbole much?
The reason many people feel fear when they see lights behind them is because they have done something wrong. The punishment is what they fear. The vast majority fears the ticket the cop is about to give them, which is going to cost them money or being arrested because that is going to cost them money.
Plus, many people don't side with the cops. And cops aren't like the BatFamily. They don't actually have this utility belt full of non-lethal gadgets to subdue people, nor did the vast majority train for about a decade or more, picking up more training along the way, to learn how not to kill people but still capture them. Life isn't a comic book.
Well this is tough.
See on the Force Continuum (back to my LE days here), there was "soft hands" (restraining techniques, attempting to move subject via pulling/pushing or pain compliance methods) and "hard hands" (striking the subject unarmed).
Simple non-cooperation (referred to as "passive resistance") typically warranted 'soft hands' on the force continuum. If you couldn't move a guy alone, you got someone to help you.
Choke holds were once considered a soft-hands restraining technique... then it was determined that choke holds could be fatal and they were reclassified as hard, then most departments banned them.
"Active resistance" is when the subject pushes officers away, etc, but isn't actually trying to hurt anyone. In my day, this was the borderline between soft hands and hard hands techniques, or possibly OC spray.
"Fighting" is when the subject is trying to hurt you to resist arrest. Now this was when you could beat his ass, spray him, maybe even use the baton on him.... but still focusing on LTL (less than lethal) methods.
Now at first I figured the Tazer was for dealing with fighters, but apparently it was quickly applied to Active Resistance as well, and in some cases just Passive Resisters. The latter surprises me, since Tasering is fatal once in a while.
PD's love their Tasers. On the whole it cuts down on officer injuries and perp injuries, reducing liability and insurance and lost-time and so on. (Mostly economic see).
I think they're getting a little too Taser happy when they use them on Passive Resisters tho.
But what do you do? Government and law are Force. When someone refuses a law and is told they are under arrest and won't go, you MUST make them go. That's the job.
Personally I think the best answer is.... don't have so many stupid-ass laws. Recognize that ANY law, when faced with citizen non-compliance, may result in violence and perhaps death... and then be a little more restrained when it comes to MAKING law.
That, and maybe we need a better system in place, something more independent of the justice system as it stands, for determining when an officer has exceeded his mandate in force.
So, rather than putting an assailant down non-lethally using the many different training methods and technologies available to you, you're saying we can't "limit the cops judgement" and should all just agree that firing your gun with deadly force, or choking people to death are acceptable methods of taking out a potentially hostile CITIZEN???
you do realize that this is not a war zone and cops are our equals? we are not enemy combatants.
its easy to look at something on tv and side with the police, but what happens when its you? or even better... when its someone you love?
what happens when mom gets pulled over, asks the cop why its happening, and then gets yanked out of the car and beaten for resisting?
So you're saying that cops are not given proper training to deal with alleged criminals? So thats your argument for why we should allow them to shoot down our fellow citizens? Its a systemic problems and if cops don't receive that kind of training they shouldn't be on the streets pointing guns at their fellow Human
Everyone wants to side with the police in issues like this until its them. What is it that you feel, when a cop turns on her lights behind you? Isn't it fear?
Why are we afraid of public servants? Is it because they've gotten out of hand? They beat up people for no reason? they shoot unarmed people dead instead of using their utility belt full of non-lethal gadgets??
No, not all cops are bad or misuse their misguided "authority" (NULL), but when we let even one of them get away with hurting, yes, even a criminal, then we give them permission to shoot at our kids when they disagree with the cops.
to beat up our parents when they want to know why they are being stopped/detained.
to steal money from our fellow citizens without regard to their fourth amendment rights.
Can you seriously back a police state? What about when it shows up at your door?
What happens when an over enthusiastic cop beats the crap out of you?
If you hit him back, trying to defend yourself, is that when the guns come out?
So, rather than putting an assailant down non-lethally using the many different training methods and technologies available to you, you're saying we can't "limit the cops judgement" and should all just agree that firing your gun with deadly force, or choking people to death are acceptable methods of taking out a potentially hostile CITIZEN???
you do realize that this is not a war zone and cops are our equals? we are not enemy combatants.
its easy to look at something on tv and side with the police, but what happens when its you? or even better... when its someone you love?
what happens when mom gets pulled over, asks the cop why its happening, and then gets yanked out of the car and beaten for resisting?
If you resist arrest successfully, then the level of force being used will increase, yes.
Normally speaking if you are unarmed, lethal force is not warranted except in the most extreme cases (ie you're beating someone's head against concrete, or you're Monster Man on a PCP flipout).
These days they'd probably Tazer you if they had one handy. We didn't have those in my day.
Now if you try to get an officer's gun, or say you're going to, or put an officer in fear of being beaten to death (ie Ferguson, monster man vs smallish cop), you might get shot yes.
Government and law are Force. Even if it is over unpaid traffic tickets, non-compliance is eventually met with some degree of force; the longer the subject successfully resists, the more likely it is that higher levels of force will be used.
It ain't pretty but that's how it is.
Now, as to an overenthusiastic cop just up and beating the crap out of you "for no reason".... well that would be rare but I'm not going to say Never.
If you want to live and not go to prison, the smartest thing to do is cover your head with your arms, curl up in a ball, and don't fight. Afterward, contact your lawyer and file charges for police brutality and sue the PD. I know that isn't a very satisfactory answer but it is the truth... fighting the police generally isn't going to lead to any outcome you are going to enjoy.
I quit LE about fifteen years ago. In the years since, I've had a couple of encounters with cops that could be characterized as 'bad'.
One case, on rural road I pulled out just as a cop came flying around the corner speeding without his lights on. He ran onto the shoulder avoiding me, then hit his blue lights and pulled me over.
Now reallio trulio, it was his fault. He was going too fast w/out lights or siren... probably on his way home.
But it didn't matter. He was scared and pissed off and determined to take it out on me. He was visibly angry, verbally hostile, and I could tell he was looking for an excuse to slam me across the hood and put the cuffs on. He searched my truck without asking permission and did his best to verbally provoke me into doing something rash.
I stayed calm, complied with all lawful orders, and was very careful to keep my hands in view and not do anything that could be construed as provocative.
In the end he let me go without a ticket... probably because he knew he'd get slammed when the recorder in his cruiser revealed he was speeding without lights or siren. He gave me a bad ten minutes by the roadside though.
I wasn't happy about it. It was stressful and nerve wracking and it wasn't fair.
But I'm still here. I'm not shot dead or in prison.
If I'd reacted to his provocation in any way that gave him half an excuse, that might not be so.
Like I tell my son.... if the cops are in the wrong, don't fight it on the side of the road, fight it in COURT. Be smart. Don't give them an excuse to beat your ass or kill you.
Well this is tough.
At the end of the day...does a courtroom ever take the defendants side..Is not a cop's word ''bible''
I don't think we do. Often enough, at least, and usually to nowhere near the same level if the crime were committed by an average citizen. Too often, if anything happens, they're simply fired with no charges whatsoever.When it is blatant, we do. But in many cases it becomes a double edged sword. It leads to cops questioning their level of force to an extent that puts them and possibly the public at risk when someone isn't subdued that should have been because the officer is more worried about how much force is "proper" and not going to potentially get them brought up on charges of murder because someone died due to a combination of circumstances that included their use of force.
At the end of the day...does a courtroom ever take the defendants side..Is not a cop's word ''bible''
I don't think we do. Often enough, at least, and usually to nowhere near the same level if the crime were committed by an average citizen. Too often, if anything happens, they're simply fired with no charges whatsoever.
This article has several examples where even when we try to hold police accountable, our efforts are thwarted: How Police Unions and Arbitrators Keep Abusive Cops on the Street - The Atlantic
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?