Should this teacher be fired?

[lily]

Look lady here's the deal this character Bennish has every right to speak his mind in the classroom, however, he has to present all of the facts and allow the students to formulate their own opinions but what Bennish did was state his own opinions and passed them off as fact, everything that he said was either a distortion of the truth, one sided, or an outright lie. In a college setting with students more informed on these subjects this would have been appropriate, however, in a high school setting what he did is along the lines of indoctrination rather than education.

Look here mister...........why don't you listen to the tape and then get back to me ok? He clearly stated that this was his opinion and he wanted his students to think.

Odd.....it's the right that keeps insisting that what this teacher said, was distortions of the truth and lies. Just because you believe everything Bush says is the gospel truth and he only has the best interst of the American people and not big business at heart, is your problem, not mine.

 

[taxedout]

Yes, taxedout........I would be upset. Because creationism is not taught in schools, unless it is being discussed in a private secular school or in a philosophy class.

What has everybody so upset, is this teacher was stating his opinion about what this administration is doing and has done.

Actually ID is not allowed to be taught as science.
It has as much a place in geography class as Bennish's opinions on politics.


You are right, what has everybody upset is that he is teaching his opinions
about politics in geography class. What a loser. He should be debating with adults instead of intimidating young kids.

 

[teacher]

teacher
Well, then I might suggest home schooling or your child learning from a computer. Otherwise, out in the real world, he's going to get other people's opinions.

Chidren. Girls. And there plenty of places for them to pick up many different opinions. IMO, public school is not the place for opinions, it's a place to teach facts. Though it seems this class is different, but it was stated before hand and I don't have a problem with that.

Well...I'd say that's what everyone on this forum is doing.........giving their opinions. You consider mine worst, because I don't agree with you.

I didn't reach a conclusion to what Dad was doing, you did. You where casting dispersions on him when we don't know the facts of it. I was meerly pointing out that Dad and his son may not be the way you concluded. But that's just my opinion.

Yes, taxedout........I would be upset. Because creationism is not taught in schools,

I see it depends on what opinion is taught for you to agree with the teaching of it. Figures.

Put it like this lily. Would you like me teaching my opinions to your kids in public school?

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Look lady here's the deal this character Bennish has every right to speak his mind in the classroom,

No, he doesn't. He's on the company dime and he's expected to be the company spokesman. If he want's to preach his own private ideas as a dedicated surrender monkey, he needs to start his own school, write his editorial columns at home, or buy his own radio station or soap box.

While he's teaching, he's expected to teach the class syllabus, which in a public school is something created by the state board and modified within limits by the local boards.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Look here mister...........why don't you listen to the tape and then get back to me ok? He clearly stated that this was his opinion and he wanted his students to think.

Odd.....it's the right that keeps insisting that what this teacher said, was distortions of the truth and lies. Just because you believe everything Bush says is the gospel truth and he only has the best interst of the American people and not big business at heart, is your problem, not mine.

You show me where he said that other than in a passive reference. If it was my class I would have made damn sure and certain that my students got all the facts, they would have gotten declassified CIA files on the Allende coup they would have got the number of the innocent dead under the Sandanistas etc etc. I'm sorry Ms. this guy is a hack and he has no idea what he's talking about.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

No, he doesn't. He's on the company dime and he's expected to be the company spokesman. If he want's to preach his own private ideas as a dedicated surrender monkey, he needs to start his own school, write his editorial columns at home, or buy his own radio station or soap box.

While he's teaching, he's expected to teach the class syllabus, which in a public school is something created by the state board and modified within limits by the local boards.

The first amendment does not end at the schools entrance . . . remember that.

That is the same right that I have to get rid of this Bennish guy not because he decided to talk politics but because he is wrong and a lier.

You take it away from him and you take it away from me, and umm, nex ut tyrannus!

 

[doughgirl]

Deegan said, “This is why public schools, and grades 1 through 12, are held to much different standards then those of college aged students. This is not the time for indoctrination, as these students are forced to take these classes!”

Very true. Kids in high school are required to take certain. And I would assume geography would have been one of them. I have to be honest here however, if I were taking a college class and the professor ranted on and on, on a daily basis about his political views, I wouldn’t stand for it either. College aged students PAY to receive instruction, and deserve to get what they pay for.

Lily said, “Yes, and I'm sure Junior's daddy speaks the same thing at home. Anyone who dares speak out against this administration is a radical. If you don't think Junior did this, just to please Daddy and to get some attention, then I've got some swamp land to sell you. Just the fact that Junior hawked these tapes to every right wing talk show he could think of, shows that. It also shows just how intelligent Junior is, so I doubt this teacher could "corrupt his thinking"

Does not matter what daddy thinks or says at home. You are putting the teacher above the boys father in a way here. Are you saying the teacher can indoctrinate the kid but his own father cant? The boy had every right to tape the teacher. The teacher had no right to say the things he said even though he believed them.
Are you 100% positive lily that a teacher could not affect a child in negative ways?
Shoot we have teachers all over the country having sex with students. You think this is ok?
There are guidelines in place to protect students. Teachers are adults and they should take into consideration what they say in the classroom and be held accountable for what they say.

Lily you said, “One would expect that a teen, in an advanced class would have enough brains and maturity to handle the class. This teacher has been there for quite a while now. I would imagine if his reputation was so radically left wing, that he would have been fired a long time ago.”

Does not matter lily. The teacher was hired to teach geography. Maturity does not have anything to do with it. Just because a student is in an honors class does not mean he/she is mature. Many freshman and sophmores take honors classes and test out of the beginning classes.

“Well, the school board disagrees with you. He is re-instated.........and Junior is still in his class. Must tell you something.”

Well I am sorry that he was reinstated. We will see if he hides his tail between his liberal legs and shuts up. He has an agenda………..and will end up again in the news. I really question the Colorado school system.

Jamesrage………..“So it would be perfectly acceptable for someone like Michael Savage to discuss in a social studies class that liberalism is a mental disorder and to have his students write how liberalism is a mental disorder in thier reports for "critical thinking"?”

Oh honey you take the cake here. You are so right. I have read that book. Ha ha
Why.. the administration wouldn’t allow this as the NEA is very liberal.
Can't wait to hear what lily says…………………..Lily what do ya think? Wouldn’t you love to see a debate between Savage and the teacher?

And if you have no idea who Savage is....... look him up on the internet.

 

[talloulou]

talloulou




Well!!! After pages of debate, I think we finally agree on something. Everyone knew what this class was about.

But don't worry taloylou.....we can still disagree on one thing. I would let my kid take the class.:2wave:

I would let my kid take it too, but I also would have ensured that many opinions were presented in class and I would have made sure to discuss all the teachers misguided ideas with my child and present rebuttals to what I consider to be radical thought.:rofl

 

[talloulou]

Look lady here's the deal this character Bennish has every right to speak his mind in the classroom, however, he has to present all of the facts and allow the students to formulate their own opinions but what Bennish did was state his own opinions and passed them off as fact, everything that he said was either a distortion of the truth, one sided, or an outright lie. In a college setting with students more informed on these subjects this would have been appropriate, however, in a high school setting what he did is along the lines of indoctrination rather than education.

I agree. If you look at the syllabus it was clear the teacher WAS NOT teaching World Geography. The GOALS of the class had nothing to do with geography! This teacher was teaching opinion. He set up his syllabus so he could teach opinion. He required parent sigs on his syllabus.

I do think parents and the school board should have kept a close eye on the class and I don't think they should have called it World Geography. I also think there should have been an effort made to make sure varying opinions were presented by the teacher vs. just his own. However from the news coverage it is impossible to tell if the teacher presented varying opinions equally or just presented his own.

There is nothing wrong with teaching critical thinking to high school kids. There is nothing wrong with discussing current events. I also believe there is nothing wrong with discussing opinions if all opinions are discussed by the teacher fairly and the differences between fact and opinion are understood.

If the teacher presented his "opinion" and all also presented other "opinions" then that's fine. It's not World Geography per se, in my opinion, but under a different course title I think it would be okay for high school kids. However if the teacher presented only his opinion and then left it up to the kids alone to refute those opinions then that is "grooming" and "brainwashing."

Also I will say the kid did nothing wrong and anyone who feels anger towards the kid is completely in the wrong. Nor is there any reason to disrespect a father and son with a good healthy relationship. The fact that the media and some on this board would make the kid a villain or show disgust for a good father/relationship is very sad.

 

[mixedmedia]

I understand and appreciate the views of both sides of this debate. As I said before, I don't think political or religious ideology (outside of expository explanations of all relevant viewpoints) has any place in a public school classroom as I know what it is like to see this same situation in reverse.

Would Michael Savage step up to the plate for my kids I wonder, hmmmmmm? :roll:

But, the "right"-eous indignation being shown here against this teacher is getting a little over the top. This situation is not the same as teachers having sex with their students. And I haven't seen anyone express anger towards the student who tape-recorded the discussion. Get over yourselves, okay? 'Cause the fact is, it is not that the teacher was discussing topics outside of the parameters of a normal geography class syllabus, but it is what he was discussing that is getting under your skin. At least 3 or 4 contributors to this thread would not be bothering to type a word of dissent if this situation were reversed.

And I think the class syllabus sounded fascinating. Not only would I allow my children to take the class, but I wouldn't mind taking it myself. At least, as seems obvious from his syllabus, he has a passion for teaching and is very capable.

 

[talloulou]

But, the "right"-eous indignation being shown here against this teacher is getting a little over the top.

That's becaue they feel many of Bennish's statements were over the top while many on the left probably agree or sympathize with the statements.

This situation is not the same as teachers having sex with their students.

I have not read one post that argued it was.

And I haven't seen anyone express anger towards the student who tape-recorded the discussion.

Then you have not read Lily's posts which expressed disgust towards the student and disgust towards the father/son relationship.

Had she merely showed concern or anger over the taping....I'd agree to disagree. But her disgust seems more generalized in that she appears to actually dislike the father and the son and speaks of them in a very put down manner.

At least 3 or 4 contributors to this thread would not be bothering to type a word of dissent if this situation were reversed.

I don't buy that for a minute. In fact I'd go so far as to argue that in general people on the right are far more likely to break from siding with the extreme right on issues. I hear conservatives disagreeing with conservatives far more often than I hear liberals disagreeing with other liberals.

And I think the class syllabus sounded fascinating. Not only would I allow my children to take the class, but I wouldn't mind taking it myself. At least, as seems obvious from his syllabus, he has a passion for teaching and is very capable.

I agree and have said I'd have allowed my child to take the class. I think the class should be titled something other than World Georgraphy as I do find that title misleading. However under another name and with the assumption that many opinions and views would be fairly discussed and presented by the teacher the class sounds fine for high school age students. For example opinions on why Bush is similar to Hitler must be rebutted with opinions for why he is not! It's not clear that the teacher did or did not do this. If he did....then all is good. If he didn't then that's a problem.

 

[mixedmedia]

That's becaue they feel many of Bennish's statements were over the top while many on the left probably agree or sympathize with the statements.

Well, I am on the left and I don't agree with the statements. I just tend to think that children in a high school honors class have the wherewithal to accept or reject information based on their own well-formed notions without suffering "indoctrination."

I have not read one post that argued it was.

Are you 100% positive lily that a teacher could not affect a child in negative ways?
Shoot we have teachers all over the country having sex with students. You think this is ok?

Then you have not read Lily's posts which expressed disgust towards the student and disgust towards the father/son relationship.
Had she merely showed concern or anger over the taping....I'd agree to disagree. But her disgust seems more generalized in that she appears to actually dislike the father and the son and speaks of them in a very put down manner.

I didn't interpret it as disgust. Guess that's a subjective thing. If you think that's a show of partisan disgust, then keep hanging around here.....try the abortion forum.

I don't buy that for a minute. In fact I'd go so far as to argue that in general people on the right are far more likely to break from siding with the extreme right on issues. I hear conservatives disagreeing with conservatives far more often than I hear liberals disagreeing with other liberals.

I'm not talking about the right in general, I was referring to contributors to this thread. I've been around here for a while and there are contributors to this thread that would not be upset about this story if the ideological details were reversed.

I agree and have said I'd have allowed my child to take the class. I think the class should be titled something other than World Georgraphy as I do find that title misleading. However under another name and with the assumption that many opinions and views would be fairly discussed and presented by the teacher the class sounds fine for high school age students. For example opinions on why Bush is similar to Hitler must be rebutted with opinions for why he is not! It's not clear that the teacher did or did not do this. If he did....then all is good. If he didn't then that's a problem.

I agree that this particular classroom discussion was out of line, wrong, should not have happened. But it is an isolated incident among an entire country full of classrooms that are not being monitored or shown on our evening newcasts as such. I mentioned earlier in the thread a situation with a high school my kids were in in which the situation was reversed, my point being that I believe inappropriately biased ideological discussions are going on in high school classrooms more than we know. I think this story is being blown out of proportion for political gain and a week's talk show fodder.

 

[talloulou]

Sorry I missed doughgirls comment. Also I think you are taking her comment slightly out of context as she doesn't appear to be saying what bennish did is similar to sex with a student as much as she seems to be arguing that yes teachers can negatively affect students.

 

[teacher]

I've been around here for a while and there are contributors to this thread that would not be upset about this story if the ideological details were reversed.

Oh, come on, name names. Throw some gas on the fire. Mix it up, media.

 

[mixedmedia]

Oh, come on, name names. Throw some gas on the fire. Mix it up, media.

They know who they are......

Heck, I bet you could tell me who they are.

 

[LaMidRighter]

This teacher's speech did offend me, but I defend it because it is his right. That being said he shouldn't be fired for what he said, he should be fired because apparently he spent most of his class time on his agenda and not teaching, that to me shows a lack of professionalism and in fact a bad employee, I don't believe that the students got what the taxpayers are buying. Also, the boy who brought this to light is obviously very mature and a bigger man than I. In interviews he did not want the teacher fired, I would not have been so gracious.

 

[jamesrage]

Oh honey you take the cake here. You are so right. I have read that book. Ha ha
Why.. the administration wouldn’t allow this as the NEA is very liberal.
Can't wait to hear what lily says…………………..Lily what do ya think? Wouldn’t you love to see a debate between Savage and the teacher?

And if you have no idea who Savage is....... look him up on the internet.

I wonder if it was a bible thumper or a conservative teacher stating his or her views to his or her students in the same manner that Jay Bennish did,would the Jay Bennish's supporters be supporting that teacher as well?

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

The first amendment does not end at the schools entrance . . . remember that.

It does for the employees. Remember that.

You can have all the freedom of speech you want...on your own time. The school is paying the monkey in front of the class to teach a specific curriculum, not demonstrate his ignorance of other topics.

Like I've been saying, if he wants to look like an idiot surrender monkey, he can do it on his own personal time, not on time he's sold to someone else.

 

[talloulou]

I wonder if it was a bible thumper or a conservative teacher stating his or her views to his or her students in the same manner that Jay Bennish did,would the Jay Bennish's supporters be supporting that teacher as well?

No they wouldn't but they would probably argue that separation of church and state is a different issue than free speech.

Also one of the problems is that many who don't support the teacher feel what he was saying is a bunch of hogwash and not fact. However in the support camp I bet there's alot of people who believe what he said is point on and supported by facts and therefore not opinion so to speak. I think they're wrong and misguided but I myself wouldn't compare Bush to Hitler nor do I consider us the most violent nation. I do however know some very fairly intelligent people who disagree with me. They aren't all as radical as this Bennish guy comes off in the tape however they'd probably be willing to make a legit case for the idea that the guy was teaching fact vs his interpretation of facts. I'd of course argue they were wrong but you see where this going....

 

[doughgirl]

Jamesrage said, ”I wonder if it was a bible thumper or a conservative teacher stating his or her views to his or her students in the same manner that Jay Bennish did,would the Jay Bennish's supporters be supporting that teacher as well?”

You are so so so right. EXCELLENT POINT. I wonder the same thing. They pretty much stick together. They never criticize each other especially concerning abortion.

Talloulou said, “There is nothing wrong with teaching critical thinking to high school kids. There is nothing wrong with discussing current events. I also believe there is nothing wrong with discussing opinions if all opinions are discussed by the teacher fairly and the differences between fact and opinion are understood.”

You can teach critical thinking without stating an opinion one way or the other. Especially when that opinion is your own.

Fact? Opinion? Isn’t it many times in the eye of the beholder to what real fact is? Every contraversial topic on this board has people on both sides arguing what they deem to be FACT. We are adults, so we can say whatever we want. School is not the place for this teachers performance.

The subject should be taught and that is it.

Mixedmedia said, “But, the "right"-eous indignation being shown here against this teacher is getting a little over the top.”

Where did this teacher present BOTH SIDES TO THE STUDENTS? He presented one side, his. Why did he not have the opposing side represented? The guy has an agenda.

“Get over yourselves, okay?”

:rofl

“'Cause the fact is, it is not that the teacher was discussing topics outside of the parameters of a normal geography class syllabus, but it is what he was discussing that is getting under your skin. At least 3 or 4 contributors to this thread would not be bothering to type a word of dissent if this situation were reversed.”

Now answer this honestly MixedMedia............. What you would say if a physical education/health teacher presented his class (in a manner like Bennish did) that….1) abortion was murder 2) The history behind Planned Parenthood 3) and connected the fact that the democratic party is anti-life and compared them to Hitler?

Would you be standing up for this teacher and his free speech to say it? Yes/no?

I will buy round trip tickets for two around the world for any Liberal who says yes to this one. :rofl :rofl



I am not opposed to this teachers rants or what he is saying at all. But he is employed as a PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER. He is payed by tax dollars. He has no right whatsoever to conduct himself like he did.

“And I think the class syllabus sounded fascinating. Not only would I allow my children to take the class, but I wouldn't mind taking it myself. At least, as seems obvious from his syllabus, he has a passion for teaching and is very capable.”

Well fine, but obviously you would not learn much about the subject you signed up for, in this case World Geography.

He has a passion for attention. And he got it.


What I was getting at with the sex with students comment was this……..

In the past few years we have seen a riding problem in schools……teacher-students who engage in sex together. (especially woman teachers who prey on male students) It disturbs me there is not more of an outrage from teh community. I would think that a lot more goes on then we know. The teachers get a mere slap on the wrist.

Point……..kids are vulnerable, they are like sponges and they many times fall into the wrong hands not only among their peers but with teachers, who don’t give a crap about their safety. Who is to say that a over the top obviously ANGRY ANGRY teacher like Bennish could not affect a student or students in negative ways.
Kids are kids………..and some are not strong. Some don’t have good self-esteem. Just because this was an honors class and you would think that all the kids were stable, means that they were. Who would have thought
Columbine would have happened. Take Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris that massacred the kids at Columbine.... put them in a class like Bennishes………and HELLO?????

Scarcrow said, “You can have all the freedom of speech you want...on your own time.”

I totally agree. The classroom is not for teachers to incite hatred or be a platform for their own opinions and philosophies. It's not what this teacher said, its where and how he said it.

 

[mixedmedia]

Where did this teacher present BOTH SIDES TO THE STUDENTS? He presented one side, his. Why did he not have the opposing side represented? The guy has an agenda.

I didn't say that he was presenting both sides to the students. In fact, I have quite flatly stated several times that I do not agree with his statements nor do I think they were appropriate for a high school class.

:rofl

Yes, I find the fact that you are getting so bent of shape about one high school geography class in Colorado pretty amusing, too.

Now answer this honestly MixedMedia............. What you would say if a physical education/health teacher presented his class (in a manner like Bennish did) that….1) abortion was murder 2) The history behind Planned Parenthood 3) and connected the fact that the democratic party is anti-life and compared them to Hitler?

I would not support it just as I don't support this teacher or the teachers who tried to cram their religious and political viewpoints down my own children's throats. What are you expecting to hear from me, doughgirl? Have you even read my posts on this thread?

Would you be standing up for this teacher and his free speech to say it? Yes/no?

Um, no.

I will buy round trip tickets for two around the world for any Liberal who says yes to this one. :rofl :rofl

I haven't stood up for Bennish and you can't make me, as much as I would love to fly around the world.

I am not opposed to this teachers rants or what he is saying at all. But he is employed as a PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER. He is payed by tax dollars. He has no right whatsoever to conduct himself like he did.

Then we agree.

Well fine, but obviously you would not learn much about the subject you signed up for, in this case World Geography.

I think it sounds like I would get a very comprehensive and relevant course in World Geography. It's a lot more helpful than learning what they taught me about in geography classes.

He has a passion for attention. And he got it.

For the life of me I can't understand why you are so bothered by this. If you don't read that syllabus and see someone who has passion for teaching, then you are too far gone for objective thinking on this matter.

What I was getting at with the sex with students comment was this……..

In the past few years we have seen a riding problem in schools……teacher-students who engage in sex together. (especially woman teachers who prey on male students) It disturbs me there is not more of an outrage from teh community. I would think that a lot more goes on then we know. The teachers get a mere slap on the wrist.

Point……..kids are vulnerable, they are like sponges and they many times fall into the wrong hands not only among their peers but with teachers, who don’t give a crap about their safety. Who is to say that a over the top obviously ANGRY ANGRY teacher like Bennish could not affect a student or students in negative ways.
Kids are kids………..and some are not strong. Some don’t have good self-esteem. Just because this was an honors class and you would think that all the kids were stable, means that they were. Who would have thought
Columbine would have happened. Take Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris that massacred the kids at Columbine.... put them in a class like Bennishes………and HELLO?????

We have seen a few cases of students having sex with their teachers. And I still don't see how it is relevant. A student having a one-on-one intimate relationship with an adult authority figure does not compare to sitting for a 20-minute lecture on any subject. Do you suppose when my daughter's algebra teacher decided to launch into a discussion about being "saved" that I worried about her being "indoctrinated"? No, it's about principle. That's the only way to see it without falling into ideological traps.

 

[lily]

teacher

I didn't reach a conclusion to what Dad was doing, you did. You where casting dispersions on him when we don't know the facts of it. I was meerly pointing out that Dad and his son may not be the way you concluded. But that's just my opinion.

I've stated how I came to this conclusion, more than once already. My oipnion of Junior and Daddy, really doesn't have much to do with the discussion, though.

I see it depends on what opinion is taught for you to agree with the teaching of it. Figures.

Put it like this lily. Would you like me teaching my opinions to your kids in public school?

If you were stating that this was your opinion, and asked the students to think and after listening to the tape one more time.......letting the kids, interupt and discuss, then as I've stated more than once, not only would I want my children exposed to different points of view, I would demand it. Otherwise, as I also stated, I would home school or have them take classes by computer. Let's face it, that's the only way they are not going to be exposed to something you don't either want them to know or someone else's point of view.

 

[teacher]

If you were stating that this was your opinion, and asked the students to think and after listening to the tape one more time.......letting the kids, interupt and discuss, then as I've stated more than once, not only would I want my children exposed to different points of view, I would demand it. Otherwise, as I also stated, I would home school or have them take classes by computer. Let's face it, that's the only way they are not going to be exposed to something you don't either want them to know or someone else's point of view.

So you think it's okay to promotes one's agenda in taxpayer funded public schools. I don't. And I think that's a little weak trying to use the school as a place to get exposure. In this day and age it's not like school is the only venue for that. I maintain that school should be as place for learning facts. You know, the quadratic formula, Helium has two electrons, a verb is an action word, and the hair on Billo's back and a straight razor is a good example of and immovable object and an irresistible force. Not political rhetoric. Of either side. So you feel that public school is a fine place for social commentary. Lots of us don't. So who is forcing what onto whom? Am I correct in assuming that the debate betwen us has boiled down to wether or not school is the proper place for political debate?

 

[doughgirl]

Mixedmedia, I guess I am bent in this one because there seems to be a double standard especially in our public schools.

Had it been a conservative yelling and screaming and voicing THEIR OPINIONS on religion or homosexuality or abortion.......and some little kid had taped them..I truly believe that teacher would have been fired. The ACLU would be there, law suits would have been filed.....you name it.
The teacher would have been labeled a religious or pro-life whacko, gay basher and the kid would have been hailed as a hero taught by intelligent parents.

 

[lily]

Am I correct in assuming that the debate betwen us has boiled down to wether or not school is the proper place for political debate?

No. I think it's safe to say, that we've both said our peace and if we continue, we'll just be repeating ourselves.:2wave: