Should the USA be divided into different countries?

[newpublius]

Stopped reading right there, because that was what you wanted to communicate.

You had to quote it and cut out the portion you allegedly didn't read you lying sack of shit.

* ignore *

 

[Luce]

You had to quote it and cut out the portion you allegedly didn't read you lying sack of shit.

* ignore *

I can hit the quote button without reading the entire post.

 

[hardy]

It was written in 1940 by the famous British author, George Orwell.

Please allow some remarks to your precious hint.
Orwell fought in the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) as part of an international brigade on the side of the republicans against the fascist coup d’etat. He did so in Catalunia.
After fascist Germany and Italy supplied war material and staff for Franco, Stalin did so for the republican forces.
He not only penetrated the defenders of the republic, he also purged them in his Stalinist way.

Orwell was so upset by this, that he wrote later “animal farm” with the star role of Stalin casting as male pig Napoleon.
Orwell was in some kind familiar with Stalinism, but may have been less with fascism, especially with the German racist characteristic of that. He wrote as early as 1940 about “Mein Kampf” and I assume even he underestimated the dire and grim layout at that time.

Stalin used terror for his own ends, as did Franco and Mussolini, but for Hitler the core of terror included murderous racism.
That’s far more than “ Hitler has said to them "I offer you struggle, danger and death,"..”
It is: I offer you a kind of ‘white supremacy’ (in this case “Arian”). You are supreme by birth, others are to be doomed without mercy.
The label of such uplifting prospect for some members of the group naturally avoids to show the unbearable costs of such promise.

Up to now I would see Donald as a mixture of Wilhelm II, Mussolini and Hitler.

In any case: The previous anchor of the world is now rotten to the core and in Germany we mourn for a lost friend, whom we thank so much.
It is so sad to see, that our once so much admired “Amis” are going down to folly, open corruption and recklessness. The torch of freedom and reason dims, shining no longer over the seas.

In brief: we are shocked.
The United States lost unity and reason and are on the brink of fascism.

 

[Evilroddy]

Please allow some remarks to your precious hint.
Orwell fought in the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) as part of an international brigade on the side of the republicans against the fascist coup d’etat. He did so in Catalunia.
After fascist Germany and Italy supplied war material and staff for Franco, Stalin did so for the republican forces.
He not only penetrated the defenders of the republic, he also purged them in his Stalinist way.

Orwell was so upset by this, that he wrote later “animal farm” with the star role of Stalin casting as male pig Napoleon.
Orwell was in some kind familiar with Stalinism, but may have been less with fascism, especially with the German racist characteristic of that. He wrote as early as 1940 about “Mein Kampf” and I assume even he underestimated the dire and grim layout at that time.

Stalin used terror for his own ends, as did Franco and Mussolini, but for Hitler the core of terror included murderous racism.
That’s far more than “ Hitler has said to them "I offer you struggle, danger and death,"..”
It is: I offer you a kind of ‘white supremacy’ (in this case “Arian”). You are supreme by birth, others are to be doomed without mercy.
The label of such uplifting prospect for some members of the group naturally avoids to show the unbearable costs of such promise.

Up to now I would see Donald as a mixture of Wilhelm II, Mussolini and Hitler.

In any case: The previous anchor of the world is now rotten to the core and in Germany we mourn for a lost friend, whom we thank so much.
It is so sad to see, that our once so much admired “Amis” are going down to folly, open corruption and recklessness. The torch of freedom and reason dims, shining no longer over the seas.

In brief: we are shocked.
The United States lost unity and reason and are on the brink of fascism.

Hardy:

Welcome to the forum! You might want to read Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" in which he deals with the barbarity of all sides and foreign powers in the Spanish Civil War. From an historical perspective it is more useful than "Animal Farm" which is a rather nebulous metaphor for all the fascist and Stalinist regimes of the first half of the 20th Century. Then I would recommend reading Andre Malreaux's "La Conditione Humane" (Man's Fate) for another perspective of monstrosity from a purely extreme Left-wing perspective. It is set in China in the 1920's and the 1930's and examines the horrendous ways in which left-wing factions behaved in their struggles for dominance in pre-revolutionary China. Both are excellent books which I strongly recommend.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[rickc]

I would never have thought so but this election has revealed much i wish I had never known about white Americans.

We are a divided nation. I think both sides deserve their own country. Problem is how to divide up the land area and resources. It is a sad time for America.

 

[Luther]

I used to say no, but it is clear NOTHING can stop the super rich using the MSM, press and Internet they totally own and control to divide the country for their own profits and power.

California, Oregon and Washington one country. The Northeast Coast another. The rest a 3rd country. That would produce two borderless (other than with the central country) socialist/fascist countries run by the super rich of the world and the center country that would remain a conservative/rightwing democratic Republic. People could move to the country of their choice.

Nothing can unit the country because there no longer is a free press - just endless corporate propaganda. Divide the country along political and ideological lines based upon the majority population,

So this is what happens when it looks like Trump might lose?

 

[newpublius]

I would never have thought so but this election has revealed much i wish I had never known about white Americans.

We are a divided nation. I think both sides deserve their own country. Problem is how to divide up the land area and resources. It is a sad time for America.

There's another solution as well.

Radical federalism.

I am borrowing that term actually from HRC who wrote an article on it and honestly I can't find it. If anybody can find that article it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[newpublius]

What Will It Take for Americans to Consider Breaking Up? | Jeff Deist

 

[presluc]

I'm beginning to think we should split up, like Europe. We have had a president that clearly only governs one side of the ticket. He tells the left to go to hell and favors the right. Every dang day he's telling me he hates my guts as an American citizen and then cries when nobody on the left likes him.

I think we should split up, then we can all just get something done.

That's not a bad idea.

 

[hardy]

You might want to read Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia"

Thank You. I ordered that book. ..no promise when I’ll read it.
I stumbled over Orwell when I red “The Battle for Spain” from Anthony Beevor. Then I remembered that we had the book “Farm der Tiere (Animal Farm)” at school. And so I read some of it again, but not completely.

The Spanish civil war might be fitting as one story what could happen to USA if not vigilant.
Showing an inner splitting rising on the stage of inequality of citizens, at last ending in bloodshed.
Self destruction over a painful period of time.

The American Civil War was in some kind similar. But it was also between regions of different rules and their secession. (In Europe a hotspot of latter is again Catalunia, as it was already when Orwell fought against the fascist plotters.)
If for instance California would gain independence from the Union, it would be still a power in world economics of the first rank.
It would try to do, what Catalunia in Spain, and Scotland in UK, tried recently with little success: To fence their own wealth against less prosperous region against less blessed.
Let us imagine that happened: State after State would insist on own regulatory and sovereignty. It would draw USA back to the worst times Europe had to endure.

Nice to talk to you. It’s my pleasure.

 

[Vadinho]

As much as I kid around that us Californians do not really need the rest of the nation, its kind of silly to talk about splitting up the worlds first democracy because some of us do not believe in democracy.

 

[Vadinho]

Thank You. I ordered that book. ..no promise when I’ll read it.
I stumbled over Orwell when I red “The Battle for Spain” from Anthony Beevor. Then I remembered that we had the book “Farm der Tiere (Animal Farm)” at school. And so I read some of it again, but not completely.

The Spanish civil war might be fitting as one story what could happen to USA if not vigilant.
Showing an inner splitting rising on the stage of inequality of citizens, at last ending in bloodshed.
Self destruction over a painful period of time.

The American Civil War was in some kind similar. But it was also between regions of different rules and their secession. (In Europe a hotspot of latter is again Catalunia, as it was already when Orwell fought against the fascist plotters.)
If for instance California would gain independence from the Union, it would be still a power in world economics of the first rank.
It would try to do, what Catalunia in Spain, and Scotland in UK, tried recently with little success: To fence their own wealth against less prosperous region against less blessed.
Let us imagine that happened: State after State would insist on own regulatory and sovereignty. It would draw USA back to the worst times Europe had to endure.

Nice to talk to you. It’s my pleasure.

My mother was born in Torre Molinos in 36, she lost a sister to bombs in that war. My grandfather was imprisoned by Franco and the family had to move to Cueta to get away from him.

 

[hardy]

As much as I kid around that us Californians do not really need the rest of the nation, its kind of silly to talk about splitting up the worlds first democracy because some of us do not believe in democracy.

Excuse me.
US is not the "the worlds first democracy", rather was Greece or Switzerland.
It is indeed the first nation with a constitution, and the first important colony to gain independence from colonial power.
Nation at that time stood for denial of gentry to be replaced by equal citizenship, including all kind of immigrants (except of those who were brought in chains to forced labour in the south).
But as you said: It would be foolish to split it.
There is some, but little hope that splitters are to vanish.

Is he gone??

 

[Vadinho]

Excuse me.
US is not the "the worlds first democracy", rather was Greece or Switzerland.
It is indeed the first nation with a constitution, and the first important colony to gain independence from colonial power.
Nation at that time stood for denial of gentry to be replaced by equal citizenship, including all kind of immigrants (except of those who were brought in chains to forced labour in the south).
But as you said: It would be foolish to split it.
There is some, but little hope that splitters are to vanish.

Is he gone??
View attachment 67303389View attachment 67303389

Ok, nits picking nits off a knit sweater. I know Greece was the real first one, excuse me for being lazy.

 

[hardy]

QUOTE="Evilroddy, post: 1072929364, member: 30172"]

Hardy:

Welcome to the forum! You might want to read Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" in which he deals with the barbarity of all sides and foreign powers in the Spanish Civil War. From an historical perspective it is more useful than "Animal Farm" which is a rather nebulous metaphor for all the fascist and Stalinist regimes of the first half of the 20th Century. Then I would recommend reading Andre Malreaux's "La Conditione Humane" (Man's Fate) for another perspective of monstrosity from a purely extreme Left-wing perspective. It is set in China in the 1920's and the 1930's and examines the horrendous ways in which left-wing factions behaved in their struggles for dominance in pre-revolutionary China. Both are excellent books which I strongly recommend.

Cheers and be well.

Evilroddy.

[/QUOTE]

Thank you.
The book of Orwell gives answers and rises also a lot of questions.
It describes how split the republicans of Spain were (while the fascist presented their ideology to be more monolithic).

Pluralism has in short therms a disadvantage against fanatism, that employs a more narrow and consistent view of what happens all around,
but, so let us hope, will in the long run be defeated by a wider range of fruitful diversities.

The "barbarity of all sides" does not equal in Spanish civil war. Following Beevor the republicans murdered about 35.000, while the fascist did so to approximated 200.000.
Murder according due to this historian does not include combat victims.
I think that is exemplary for fanatism.
And comparing contemporary crucial issues in US we can compare those to the eve of the Spanish Civil War, regarding rising social inequality, that should have receded, but in contrary rose to common disappointment.
A fact that is prone to give way to radical ideas and polarization and undermines reason.

Timothy Snyder, a highly regarded US-historian, who wrote important works about tyranny especially in Soviet Union and fascist Germany, recommends to “be wary of paramilitaries”, heralding “the end is nigh”. (Timothy Snyder – On Tyranny- Chapter 6)

What do we see now? A hardened criminal has temporarily achieved appointment of Potus and tries now to instigate civil war rather than to receive a deserved incarceration.
From a present western German view it is most disturbing to see highly armed “Trump protestors”, as we have reason to fear that US are going down to a state from which Germany, and even worse the rest of the globe, suffered from 1933 on.

But whom do I tell all that?
Hope other guys shall contemplate about.

Stay healthy and clean.
Best wishes hardy.

 

[pamak]

I say "not yet"

But if the current trend continues and we see for example an inability to have a compromise even when one side is led by a very vanilla, moderate politician like Biden, then I cannot see how a single US can survive in the long-run as it is. Perhaps, people should consider an option of splitting into a "red" and "blue" part tied with some form of economic agreement.

 

[aociswundumho]

Wouldn't have to split the country up if the political left would just allow the federalist system to work as intended. But leftists want every aspect of your life controlled by a massive central government, so it will never happen.

 

[vegas giants]

The south would become third world

 

[iguanaman]

Wouldn't have to split the country up if the political left would just allow the federalist system to work as intended. But leftists want every aspect of your life controlled by a massive central government, so it will never happen.

Really? The right wants to monitor all pregnant women and charge them with murder if their fetus does not make it to birth.

 

[Geoist]

Yes, break the USA up into at least 4 or 5 countries.

 

[TurtleDude]

Really? The right wants to monitor all pregnant women and charge them with murder if their fetus does not make it to birth.

where do you come up with such an idiotic comment.

 

[TurtleDude]

Wouldn't have to split the country up if the political left would just allow the federalist system to work as intended. But leftists want every aspect of your life controlled by a massive central government, so it will never happen.

True, if the FDR idiocy had not destroyed the tenth amendment, some states would ban guns, some states would have public shooting ranges and state issued ammo, some states would ban abortion, some would allow partial birth abortion, some states would only recognize marriage as between adult males and adult females, and others would have public toilets open to all.

 

[iguanaman]

where do you come up with such an idiotic comment.

What do think making abortions illegal would entail? How would it be policed?

 

[iguanaman]

True, if the FDR idiocy had not destroyed the tenth amendment, some states would ban guns, some states would have public shooting ranges and state issued ammo, some states would ban abortion, some would allow partial birth abortion, some states would only recognize marriage as between adult males and adult females, and others would have public toilets open to all.

And some States would have slavery too? We are the United States not the loosely affiliated States. What does "united " mean to you?

 

[Tigerace117]

Yes, break the USA up into at least 4 or 5 countries.

While we are at it, break Britain, France, Germany, Russia, China and the Scandinavian nations into twenty.....each.