Should the U.S. and the E.U. cut off aid to the Palestinians? (1 Viewer)

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Considering all the talk of the U.S. support for Israel, it is often overlooked that since, I believe, 1993 the U.S. has given the Palestinians over 1.5 billion dollars in foriegn aid and that's not including the E.U. nations monetary assistance, so now that the Palestinians have voted and they have chosen terrorism and conflict should we still be giving these people money?

Why or why not?

 

[Kandahar]

We should cut off all aid, yes. Practically all Palestinians are terrorist sympathizers, and they should get what's coming to them. If the US and EU cut off all the aid, it will cut the Palestinian budget in half. From a personal perspective, I'd take great pleasure in seeing them further impoverished and miserable. From a more rational perspective, there's no reason we should continue giving money to a government we actively oppose. The fact that the government is democratically-elected doesn't change the fact that it's full of terrorists. We shouldn't treat them any differently than, say, Libya.

 

[Kelzie]

Considering all the talk of the U.S. support for Israel, it is often overlooked that since, I believe, 1993 the U.S. has given the Palestinians over 1.5 billion dollars in foriegn aid and that's not including the E.U. nations monetary assistance, so now that the Palestinians have voted and they have chosen terrorism and conflict should we still be giving these people money?

Why or why not?

Man it's just a crappy situation. Cause Hamas won't be hurt by it. The poor people will. My vote is officially "I don't know".

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Man it's just a crappy situation. Cause Hamas won't be hurt by it. The poor people will. My vote is officially "I don't know".

This is the whole point now that the Palestinian people have spoken you can't go around saying: "oh those poor Palestinians it's not their fault that their country has been over run by militant extremists," the fact of the matter is that a Democratically elected government is of, by, and for the people, these people just proved that they prefer terrorism to peace. This election has just taken off the mask to reveal the true face of the Palestinian people. It would be like saying that you can't blame the German people for electing Hitler and the Nazis into power when you sure as hell can.

They could have chosen a different path and the fact is that they didn't it's time to stop coddling these people they made their bed and now they've got to lie in it.

 

[Kelzie]

This is the whole point now that the Palestinian people have spoken you can't go around saying oh those poor Palestinians it's not their fault that their country has been over run by militant extremists, the fact of the matter is that a Democratically elected government is of, by, and for the people, these people just proved that they prefer terrorism to peace.

They could have chosen a different path and the fact is that they didn't it's time to stop coddling these people they made their bed and now they've got to lie in it.

That's a tad unfair to the Palestinians since Hamas ran on a platform of reduced corruption and more social programs, not terror. You have no way of telling what they voted for.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

That's a tad unfair to the Palestinians since Hamas ran on a platform of reduced corruption and more social programs, not terror. You have no way of telling what they voted for.

Bullshit the major platform of Hamas from day one has been the utter destruction of Israel and the rejection of any peace proposals, the Palestinians knew, as did the rest of the world, exactly what Hamas stood for when they went to the polls, and it sure as hell isn't peace.

 

[Kandahar]

That's a tad unfair to the Palestinians since Hamas ran on a platform of reduced corruption and more social programs, not terror. You have no way of telling what they voted for.

Reliable opinion polls have shown that over three-quarters of Palestinians believe that suicide bombs are a legitimate means of resistance.

 

[Kelzie]

Bullshit the major platform of Hamas from day one has been the utter destruction of Israel and the rejection of any peace proposals, the Palestinians knew, as did the rest of the world, exactly what Hamas stands for it sure as hell isn't peace.

No it hasn't and you obviously didn't follow the elections. Tell you what, find me a poll that says that the majority of Palestinians favor continuing attacking Israel and I'll believe you.

 

[Kelzie]

Reliable opinion polls have shown that over three-quarters of Palestinians believe that suicide bombs are a legitimate means of resistance.

A) I want to see it.

B) That doesn't mean the favor using them.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

No it hasn't and you obviously didn't follow the elections. Tell you what, find me a poll that says that the majority of Palestinians favor continuing attacking Israel and I'll believe you.

First off like I've said many many times the only poll which matters is the one on election day.

Here's the introduction to the Hamas platform which it released for the Palestinian elections:

"Our nation is currently at a stage of national liberation, and it has the right to act to regain its rights and end the occupation by using all means, including armed resistance," it states. "We must use all means in order to support our people and establish a state whose capital is Jerusalem."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/669006.html

Does that sound like they renounced violence against Israel to you?

And here's the Hamas Charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Quit playing devils advocate here Kelz it's obvious that the Palestinians knew god damn well who they were voting for and what they were voting for.

 

[Kelzie]

First off like I've said many many times the only poll which matters is the one on election day.

Here's the introduction to the Hamas platform which it released for the Palestinian elections:



Does that sound like they renounced violence against Israel to you?

And here's the Hamas Charter:


Quit playing devils advocate here Kelz it's obvious that the Palestinians knew god damn well who they were voting for and what they were voting for.

So no poll? Not surprising. And here's a better summary of the overall message of their platform instead of just one paragraph of it. And from an internationally recognized newspaper too.

Hamas's platform for next week's election dwells on reform, progress and an end to corruption, and omits the customary calls for the destruction of Israel.

Oh wow and look what else it says.

Polls suggest that the large majority of Palestinians are sick of warfare and support democratic reforms and peace talks with Israel.

http://smh.com.au/news/world/milita...ian-poll/2006/01/20/1137734151642.html?page=2

That's odd. That's exactly what I said....

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

So no poll? Not surprising. And here's a better summary of the overall message of their platform instead of just one paragraph of it. And from an internationally recognized newspaper too.



Oh wow and look what else it says.



http://smh.com.au/news/world/milita...ian-poll/2006/01/20/1137734151642.html?page=2

That's odd. That's exactly what I said....

OMFG Kelzie I just gave you the exact words from the intro of their platform they didn't call for the destruction of Israel they called for armed resistance against Israel, big fuc/king difference, now you're playing semantics. Have they changed their charter, have they renounced terrorism, have they renounced the call for the destruction of Isael? No they haven't. And the only fuc/king poll that matters is the one at the election booth, the Palestinians elected Hamas which has been engaged in a suicide bombing campaign since 2000 and the second intifada, and you're actually going to sit here and tell me that the Palestinians didn't know that they were electing a terrorrist organization into power?

 

[Kandahar]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2072851.stm
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignB...reignBureaus\archive\200106\For20010605a.html

These are a couple years out of date, but still provide useful information. If this level of support has changed since then (which I don't see any evidence of), it's merely a tactical change rather than a moral change.

 

[Kelzie]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2072851.stm
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignB...reignBureaus\archive\200106\For20010605a.html

These are a couple years out of date, but still provide useful information. If this level of support has changed since then (which I don't see any evidence of), it's merely a tactical change rather than a moral change.

Did you read my quote? It was from a few days ago. It certainly seems the level of support has changed and you have no basis to conclude whether it was for morals or tactics.

 

[cherokee]

I vote, I don’t know.

While I hold no good feelings toward the Hammas but it will be the common people who are hurt the most. Cutting them off in the conditions they are in now will only straighten the Hammas not undermine them.
I understand they the PLO was corrupted to the gills but electing the Hammas is going to be a huge setback.

With an Unemployment rate: 60% (2003 est.) The key to this is going to be the economy. The only reason the hammas won is because they built schools and provided aid to the people BUT the trade off was they got to start brainwashing the school kids at a younger age.

Do the Palestine people have any type of natural resources or do they depend on aid?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_economy

Also found this on the web. I know nothing about them but they seem to be on the right track.
http://www.anera.org/projects/projects2.html

 

[cherokee]

here is a site with some poll data..
http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2004/p14ejoint.html


http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0125/p01s01-wome.html

 

[Kelzie]

here is a site with some poll data..
http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2004/p14ejoint.html


http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0125/p01s01-wome.html

An important part for all those who foolishly believe the Palestinians voted for terror:

Consistent with these accommodating positions, 89% of the Israelis and 80% of the Palestinians support a cease fire while 71% of the Israelis and 80% of the Palestinians support an immediate return to the negotiations table.

 

[jfuh]

I really can't say in this instance.
As mentioned many times in this poll already, if we cut off aid to Palestine, those most affected are those that are poor and needy. The poorer they become the more desperate they will be and turn that desparity to anger then rage. This will most likly be geared towards western powers and in particularily Israel, which has a lot to do with thier poverty.
But then to give aid to Hamas.... I really have to hold back on that one.
On the other side however, it is undeniable that Arafats party had held power in Palestine for all the former decades of rule, and change is good. Let's face it, regardless of who one the elections there, we can always say that they sponser terrorism, hell Arafat himself was indeed a terrorist.
I feel it very unfair to generalize the Palestenian populice as supporters of terrorism as their choices are all terrorist to some degree.
So for this poll, I really can not simply say, yes or no.

 

[Donkey1499]

I don't feel like reading eveything that y'all writ on here. So if I repeat anything that has already been discussed, then just either ignore it or POLITELY correct me.

Now, funding to Palestine SHOULD be cutoff because we should NOT fund a TERRORIST organization. Especially one who wants to destroy our friend and ally, Israel.

There, was that a simple enough answer? Or do y'all need more. Cuz I got lots more.

 

[Kelzie]

I don't feel like reading eveything that y'all writ on here. So if I repeat anything that has already been discussed, then just either ignore it or POLITELY correct me.

Now, funding to Palestine SHOULD be cutoff because we should NOT fund a TERRORIST organization. Especially one who wants to destroy our friend and ally, Israel.

There, was that a simple enough answer? Or do y'all need more. Cuz I got lots more.

Except cutting off the funding will do nothing to Hamas and instead increase the suffering to the poor of Palestine, of which there are quite a lot.

 

[Crispy]

Yes, We should not support them.

We spent way too much time in the last century not holding other governments to account while allowing every government in the world, regardless of their disposition in the world, to hold us accountable for every mistake we've made that has affected them.

Why should we be held to account for their dilemna now only to blamed for supporting them later if the situation blows up out of control. We're the great liberators until those who we liberate resort to usurping power and destroying everything we tried to help them build. Its time for accountability. If they renounce terrorism and the destruction of Isreal as their aims and they demonstrate it in action then I see no reason not to help them and their people. But until that time they deserve no free ride, and, the palestinian people, by expressing their stance through the ballot box, knowing full well who they were casting their ballot for, know this all too well.

Also, why not let the Islamic nations who so chastise the west because of our support for the "Zionists" show their true support for the "Palestinians" in their cause by helping them build a new nation. Maybe they can be the "Nation Builders" now.

 

[earthworm]

We should not have ever been giving the Palestinians anything - absolutely zero aid !
And , as we were doing this (which is wrong), their voting should not effect the aid....IMO..

Having strings attached to "giving" is not right either...

It was probably wrong for England to have created the state of Israel in the "middle" of Arab lands..
But, then , what were they to do ?? At least they did something positive...
This land in Palestine was mostly useless desert, the Arabs (what few there were back then) were not doing anything with the land.

If the Arabs were more civilized and kinder, I think they should have gone along with the sale and takeover of at least half of this area to the Israelis..Instead they chose warfare and lost - much as the American native did...This was not right either - but it is long said and done...

But that was then, this is now..We must still support Israel 100% and reduce to nothing our dependence on Arabian oil...

I wonder if are there "good Arabs and bad Arabs". Or is there any difference....

With the hateful hamas in power ( similar to the nazis seizing power in Germany), I can fore see a horrible war in the middle east within ten years...

The way to avoid this is for the UN - its still around, is it not ? - to create a land for the Palestinians- mainly in the West Bank and to place the UN headquarters in Jerusalem and make that an international city..
It is either that or war.

 

[cherokee]

As much as its gonna pains me to say this..
Gunny made some good points in this post that can apply here as well.

Originally Posted by cherokee
Another issue that will have to be dealt with is Pakistan and it’s growing Islamic extremists movement.

Gunny
True. Pakistan is a problem. Our fight is with the few, but our struggle must be with the many. The United States will never be the decisive factor in the struggle for the future of Islam. That role is reserved for Muslims themselves. So far, they have not lifted a finger, but we can play a far more constructive role than we have yet done also. While Pakistan has been wracked with phenomenal corruption and suffers from a ravaged education system that opened the door for the expansion of fundamentalist religious schools, and even though its economy is in shambles, that most-endangered state still has not strayed irretrievably into the extremist camp. India and Indonesia are the two countries with the largest Muslim populations. Each state presents a reason for hope in the world of Islam. Muslims in India mirror Muslims in our own country. They are both faced with living in different cultures and compete for religious identity. The West’s liberation of women is the essential element that renders so many Muslims irreconcilable to us. This particular set of freedoms threatens not only the Muslim male’s religious prejudices, but also his central identity. Until it successfully addresses the issue of women’s rights—full rights—Islam will not compete successfully, in any area, with the West. In that regard, Indonesia offers a hopeful example among foreign states and the Kurds offer a very ignored example for the Arabs of the Middle East (where they seem incapable of constructive change).

Our biggest obstacle to helping these people out of their oppressed state and away from this Radical disease is their host governments and Pakistan is a definate problem. Until we recognize that our focus should be to the oppressed and not to the governments that continue to oppress...we are punching at thin air, because we are used as their scapegoat. Pakistan is stuck between the military that is holding it together and the growing fanatic population that go largely unchecked. The only thing that seperates this country's internal Radical problem from nuclear access is their military....not their government.

 

[Donkey1499]

Oh yeah, one other thing. Former Prez, Jimmy Carter, backs the Hamas Victory. And Carter is a simpleton. What does this have to do with anything, I don't know. So I'll go grab a beer and ponder on it for a while.

 

[Donkey1499]

Except cutting off the funding will do nothing to Hamas and instead increase the suffering to the poor of Palestine, of which there are quite a lot.

We should worry about our own poor people before worrying about the poor in other countries.