Should the U.S. and the E.U. cut off aid to the Palestinians?

[Kelzie]

Yes, We should not support them.

We spent way too much time in the last century not holding other governments to account while allowing every government in the world, regardless of their disposition in the world, to hold us accountable for every mistake we've made that has affected them.

Why should we be held to account for their dilemna now only to blamed for supporting them later if the situation blows up out of control. We're the great liberators until those who we liberate resort to usurping power and destroying everything we tried to help them build. Its time for accountability. If they renounce terrorism and the destruction of Isreal as their aims and they demonstrate it in action then I see no reason not to help them and their people. But until that time they deserve no free ride, and, the palestinian people, by expressing their stance through the ballot box, knowing full well who they were casting their ballot for, know this all too well.

Also, why not let the Islamic nations who so chastise the west because of our support for the "Zionists" show their true support for the "Palestinians" in their cause by helping them build a new nation. Maybe they can be the "Nation Builders" now.

A vote for Hamas does not equal a vote for terror. As already provided sources show, Hamas ran on an anti-corruption, social program platform. Not a "let's destroy Isreal" platform. Recent polls also confirm that Palestinians support peace. Would you punish them for choosing what they considered to be the lesser of two evils? I know I didn't really like Kerry, but the alternative....

 

[Kelzie]

We should worry about our own poor people before worrying about the poor in other countries.

Our poor are in no danger of starving to death. And they have housing and education.

 

[Kelzie]

As much as its gonna pains me to say this..
Gunny made some good points in this post that can apply here as well.

I'm not sure Pakistan and Palestine are all that comparable. The military keeps the fanatic population under control in Pakistan, but the militant groups are the fanatics in Palestine while the population wants peace by overwhelming majority.

 

[cherokee]

Oh yeah, one other thing. Former Prez, Jimmy Carter, backs the Hamas Victory. And Carter is a simpleton. What does this have to do with anything, I don't know. So I'll go grab a beer and ponder on it for a while.

Carter is a peace activist. Maybe he thinks he can use the hammas change the conditions. ??..
He backs that the people voted.

 

[Donkey1499]

Our poor are in no danger of starving to death. And they have housing and education.

Apparently you've never been to LA or NYC where starved poor people are found dead, and not just because of murder, but because of lack of food and shelter. Let Hamas deal with their poor, if they are as changed as they say they are.

 

[Donkey1499]

Carter is a peace activist. Maybe he thinks he can use the hammas change the conditions. ??..
He backs that the people voted.

I can't remeber his exact words, being that I didn't write them down. But Carter sounded all giddy that Hamas had won the election. Maybe Hamas is turning over a new leaf, but I'll keep my eyes open and be ever watchful. I don't trust terrorists.

 

[cherokee]

I'm not sure Pakistan and Palestine are all that comparable. The military keeps the fanatic population under control in Pakistan, but the militant groups are the fanatics in Palestine while the population wants peace by overwhelming majority.

True but it underlying problems of government corruption leading to the lack of schools, jobs and social programs that can lead to the extremists Islamic views.

Yes, no?

 

[Kelzie]

Apparently you've never been to LA or NYC where starved poor people are found dead, and not just because of murder, but because of lack of food and shelter. Let Hamas deal with their poor, if they are as changed as they say they are.

Lived in both and no there aren't. :roll: Both cities have homeless shelters and soup kitchens provided free of charge.

 

[Kelzie]

True but it underlying problems of government corruption leading to the lack of schools, jobs and social programs that can lead to the extremists Islamic views.

Yes, no?

Yes, but in Palestine's case, the people voted for the party that vowed to end that corruption and improve schools, jobs and social conditions. It just happened to be a party that didn't play well with Israel. Do you blame them? Given the choice in Pakistan, I'd be willing to bet that people would vote for a less corrupt party that provided them with more social benefits, even if it was more militaristic.

 

[jfuh]

Apparently you've never been to LA or NYC where starved poor people are found dead, and not just because of murder, but because of lack of food and shelter. Let Hamas deal with their poor, if they are as changed as they say they are.

That's not entirely true. Food and shelter are available for these homeless, however they refuse to accept it. Such refusal is often associated with various social and pshycological difficulties as opposed to the misconception that there is nothing available for them.

 

[jfuh]

True but it underlying problems of government corruption leading to the lack of schools, jobs and social programs that can lead to the extremists Islamic views.

Yes, no?

Exactly.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

A vote for Hamas does not equal a vote for terror. As already provided sources show, Hamas ran on an anti-corruption, social program platform. Not a "let's destroy Isreal" platform. Recent polls also confirm that Palestinians support peace. Would you punish them for choosing what they considered to be the lesser of two evils? I know I didn't really like Kerry, but the alternative....

Kelzie you're confusing a change in tactics for a change in strategy, the tactics of Hamas may have changed, as it has many times before, they'll say they want to negotiate with Israel out of one side of their mouth while calling for the death of Israel with the other, the tactics change but their overall strategy is one which results with the destruction of Israel. They have not changed their charter (and in comparisan to an organizations charter their election platform is meaningless), they have not renounced violence, and in fact the opening statement in their election platform was a call to arms against Israel. Hamas has been engaged in a bloody suicide bombing campaign against Israel since 2000 and the start of the second intifada, so are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that the Palestinians didn't know that they were voting for a terrorist organization when they went to the polls? Do you honestly think that a meaningless election platform changes the bloody history of Hamas or that organizations actual views, and that the Palestinian people are so stupid as if to believe it does?

This is like saying that if Saudi Arabia were allowed to vote and they voted for O.B.L. because he said he would reform Saudi Arabia, that the people who voted for him were voting for reform and not terrorism. It's ridiculously naive. Sooner or later you're going to have to quit playing devils advocate and live in the real world where in the Palestinians don't want peaceful relations and coexistence with Israel they want its destruction.

As for the lesser of two evils, the Fatah party has agreed to every article in the Road Map to Peace and Hamas has rejected it in its entirety, that includes the formation of a Palestinian state, so in effect the Palestinians voted against statehood.

 

[cherokee]

Donkey1499,

I agree 100% the US needs to help more of its own.


Also this cant be the US only helping the Palestine people it has to be everyone including the Arabs.

 

[Kelzie]

Kelzie you're confusing a change in tactics for a change in strategy, the tactics of Hamas may have changed, as it has many times before, they'll say they want to negotiate with Israel out of one side of their mouth while calling for the death of Israel with the other, the tactics change but their overall strategy is one which results with the destruction of Israel. They have not changed their charter (and in comparisan to an organizations charter their election platform is meaningless), they have not renounced violence, and in fact the opening statement in their election platform was a call for arms against Israel. Hamas has been engaged in a bloody suicide bombing campaign against Israel since 2000 and the start of the second intifada, so are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that the Palestinians didn't know that they were voting for a terrorist organization when they went to the polls? Do you honestly think that a meaningless election platform changes the bloody history of Hamas or that organizations actual views, and that the Palestinian people are so stupid as if to believe it does?

As for the lesser of two evils, the Fatah party has agreed to every article in the Road Map to Peace and Hamas has rejected it in its entirety, that includes the formation of a Palestinian state, so in effect the Palestinians voted against statehood.

First off, their charter is 20 years old and in no way must reflect their current views. The charter for the labour party of the UK still calls for state controlled industry, although no party member supports it.

Second, you can sit there and scream that the Palestinians voted for terror all you like. The platform that Hamas ran on and the large majority of Palestians that want peace show that they voted for less corruption and more social programs. The facts speak for themselves, which is obvious since you have none.

 

[Donkey1499]

Lived in both and no there aren't. :roll: Both cities have homeless shelters and soup kitchens provided free of charge.

Bullshiz! I've seen the reports on Dateline. I wish I could find a way prove it, but it doesn't matter. Our homeless are still wandering the streets always hungry and without a permanent address. I wouldn't give them hand-outs, though. But a hand-up would be a good start. With Bush's economy, unemployment has gone down to 4.8%. Which is the best it's been in 20 years or so.

 

[Kelzie]

Bullshiz! I've seen the reports on Dateline. I wish I could find a way prove it, but it doesn't matter. Our homeless are still wandering the streets always hungry and without a permanent address. I wouldn't give them hand-outs, though. But a hand-up would be a good start. With Bush's economy, unemployment has gone down to 4.8%. Which is the best it's been in 20 years or so.

Then it's only because they don't take advatage of the free food available to them. In New York city alone there are over 1000 soup kitchens.

 

[Crispy]

A vote for Hamas does not equal a vote for terror. As already provided sources show, Hamas ran on an anti-corruption, social program platform. Not a "let's destroy Isreal" platform. Recent polls also confirm that Palestinians support peace.

No, you're right, and I appreciate their social agenda, and have appreciated that part of their agenda even though they've been a terror organization. But when have you known election time to be the time for honest political agendas?

Would you punish them for choosing what they considered to be the lesser of two evils? I know I didn't really like Kerry, but the alternative....

They're not being punished. They're facing (including Hamas themselves) the hard reality of their circumstances. After all, they didn't expect to be the majority party. They're not without recourse. They can "choose" to do what's in the best of interest of their people or they can "choose" to stand on principles that have only lead to misery and suffering.

And no country is coming to "our" aid because we decided to elect a hawk president. Other countries aren't saying "well, terrorism is bad, Sadaam was bad, the american people are generally good, perhaps we should help them out despite their overly agressive administration, after all they only elected the lesser of two evils"

 

[Donkey1499]

Also this cant be the US only helping the Palestine people it has to be everyone including the Arabs.

I hate it when people do this. Why should America have to feel obligated to finance everybody? I don't mind lending temporary military support (like what we're doing in Afghanistan and Iraq), but money is another issue. Fine, donate money for disaster relief, but we shouldn't keep pumping money to a terrorist led nation, or any nation for that matter. I don't see anyone giving us 'free money'.

 

[Kelzie]

I hate it when people do this. Why should America have to feel obligated to finance everybody? I don't mind lending temporary military support (like what we're doing in Afghanistan and Iraq), but money is another issue. Fine, donate money for disaster relief, but we shouldn't keep pumping money to a terrorist led nation, or any nation for that matter. I don't see anyone giving us 'free money'.

Actually, the EU gives much more money to Palestine that the US.


And your 4.8 "lowest" unemployment rating in 20 years? It was 4.0 in 2000. Google not working for you today?

 

[Donkey1499]

Then it's only because they don't take advatage of the free food available to them. In New York city alone there are over 1000 soup kitchens.

And those soup kitchens are funded by who? Some by the "evil Christian empire" and some by tax payer dollars. I don't want to fund a soup kitchen, but I'll fund a job placement program. Besides, the more people that work, the better my retirement checks will be. And yours' too.

 

[Kelzie]

No, you're right, and I appreciate their social agenda, and have appreciated that part of their agenda even though they've been a terror organization. But when have you known election time to be the time for honest political agendas?


They're not being punished. They're facing (including Hamas themselves) the hard reality of their circumstances. After all, they didn't expect to be the majority party. They're not without recourse. They can "choose" to do what's in the best of interest of their people or they can "choose" to stand on principles that have only lead to misery and suffering.

And no country is coming to "our" aid because we decided to elect a hawk president. Other countries aren't saying "well, terrorism is bad, Sadaam was bad, the american people are generally good, perhaps we should help them out despite their overly agressive administration, after all they only elected the lesser of two evils"

And to give Hamas credit, considering the make up of their party, they've come along way to peace in the few days since they've been elected. It appears they are trying to compromise somewhat, although not as much as we'd like.

 

[Donkey1499]

Actually, the EU gives much more money to Palestine that the US.


And your 4.8 "lowest" unemployment rating in 20 years? It was 4.0 in 2000. Google not working for you today?

4.8 was just an estimate that I heard floating around. Excuse me for breathing.

 

[Kelzie]

And those soup kitchens are funded by who? Some by the "evil Christian empire" and some by tax payer dollars. I don't want to fund a soup kitchen, but I'll fund a job placement program. Besides, the more people that work, the better my retirement checks will be. And yours' too.

:roll: And completely not what we're talking about, but as long as you've accepted that we are not starving Americans to death to give money to Palestine....

 

[Kelzie]

4.8 was just an estimate that I heard floating around. Excuse me for breathing.

And 20 years was what? Something you pulled out of your ass?

 

[earthworm]

Apparently you've never been to LA or NYC where starved poor people are found dead, and not just because of murder, but because of lack of food and shelter. Let Hamas deal with their poor, if they are as changed as they say they are.

As an American citizen, I say the American people are the most important.
And we must start taking care of our people.
The poor have a lousy diet, and second rate education and have to live in shacks and trailers..
Let the Arabs take care of their own kind..oil at $60 per barrow- I'll bet the poor in Palestine see not a penny of this !

hamas claims to be socially responsible, that they will stop curruption..Sounds good, much like the nazis in Germany 70 years ago...