Should God have been mentioned in the EU Constitution?

[TimmyBoy]

At least you said 'to me.' Somebody on one of the abortion threads spouted this same silly ignorance, almost in the same words, as if it were fact.

So where would morality come from to you? I personally view both the death penalty and abortion as a barbaric darwinist practice.

 

[tryreading]

So where would morality come from to you? I personally view both the death penalty and abortion as a barbaric darwinist practice.

Thank you for asking. My morality comes from my conscience.

 

[TimmyBoy]

Thank you for asking. My morality comes from my conscience.

It's a good thing that not everybody's morals come from their conscience. Morals are not necessarily something created by chemicals in the human brain.

 

[tr1414]

It's too bad that when I made a reference about Johnson's "Great Society" someone thought I was talking about the EU... very sad & telling.
Just so everyone here knows they (liberals, the ACLU) ARE trying to rid our schools of ANY mention of GOD. Some people here get what I'm saying some others don't get, don't care, or could care less. To make my point short & sweet, the lack of God in our lives is not a good thing. I'm not saying people HAVE to believe in God but those of us that do should not have to hide it. The constitution gives us freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. NOWHERE in the constitution does the words "separation of church and state" appear.

 

[hipsterdufus]

I just love it when liberals are so WRONG. Here's a break down. You tell me if most of these people belive in God.

Greece 78% Catholic, Austria 73% Catholic, Belgium 75%, Catholic, Bulgaria 82% Christian, Croatia 87% Catholic, Cyprus 75% Greek Orthodox Catholic, Czech Rep. 26% Catholic, Denmark 95% Lutheren Christian, Finland 84% Lutheren Christian, France 83% Catholic, Georgia 83% Christian, Germany 34% Protestant,34% Catholic, Hungery 52% Catholic, Iceland 85% Lutheran, Ireland 88% Catholic, Italy 99% Catholic, Liechtenstein 76% Catholic, Luxembourg 87% Catholic, Malta 98% Catholic, Moldova 98% Easten Orthodox Christian, Monaco 90% Catholic, Netherlands 32% Catholic, 13% Duch Reformed Christian, Norway 86% Pentecostal Christian, Romania 87% Protestant Christian, Slovakia 69% Catholic, 10% Protestant Christian, Slovenia 58% Catholic, Spain 94% Catholic, Sweden 87% Lutheran Christian, Switzerland 42% Catholic, 35% Protestant Christian, United Kingdom 73% Christian, Turkey 99% Muslim.

Where is your source for this? I'm not necessarily disputing it, I would just like to verify it?

Looks to me like most of these people belive in God. It's the people who don't belive that wants things to change for them. Kinda got that upside down huh?
What's wrong with letting God into our lifes? What's wrong with trying to live life by His Laws?

Which laws? Which religion? That's a pretty vague generality.

I'm sure the liberals will have something to say..... but we all know that it will only be against Christians in one form or another. Think about it.... you can hand out condoms in a school, have our kids read books like "Heather has two mommy's" Liberals want to protray being gay as normal.

I do strongly feel that being gay is normal since homosexuality occurs in nature and the latest evidence shows that it is genetically determined:

Among plants, sometimes flowers possess both male and female sex organs, sometimes they are unisexual and on different plants, sometimes unisexual and on the same plants, sometimes flowers are designed so they can't self-pollinate, other times they have to pollinate themselves, and some plants skip the sex scene altogether by reproducing vegetatively.

Among animals we find everything from the male seahorse who carries the eggs, hatches them and takes care of the young, to the "polyandrous" Spotted Sandpiper whose females may lay up to four nests in a season, each equipped with a different male incubating the eggs. Of course the common earthworm is both male and female, and some snails sometimes mate with themselves, producing offspring.

The higher up the evolutionary scale you go, the kinkier it all gets. Among communities of mice and other mammals, when population density reaches a certain high level where diseases and famine threaten, not only does homosexual behavior appear but also parents begin killing their own offspring.

http://www.backyardnature.net/j/o/homosex.htm

What's going on here is that they want to make the abnormal normal. We've had 40 years of liberalism & it DON'T WORK. I'm tired of seeing murders back out on the street after only a few years.

I don't want to see murderers back on the street either.

I'm sick of right being wrong & this is just the tip of the iceberg. Though the NEA, our tax dollars pay for crap that passess for "art", our students are thought by liberal teachers at liberal schools & we see it all in the liberal media. It's ok do disagree but the level of hate is way over the line.

Your throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The NEA produces some wonderful works of culture. Sure there is some crap, but for the most part the work is valid. The NEA is such a miniscule part of the budget. It hardly compares to Alaska bridges to nowhere.

As long as there are Ward Churchills among us the hate on the left will rise. They will be a black lash. People want values. People want leadership.

I think Ward Churchill is a loon. But I defend his right to speak his mind. That's freedom of speech.

People want/need God in their lives.

If it's working for you great! IMHO you seem to be filled with hate and rage against your fellow man. That doesn't seem very Christian-like to me.

 

[hipsterdufus]

Well, to me, when you have the absence of God, their is no right or wrong. Anything goes. Everything is OK to do. Their is only emptiness and immorality. However, I think all religions, so long as they do not violate the personal and property rights of others, should be allowed to be practiced and I do believe in the seperation of Church and State much like the founding fathers of the United States.

When I think of nations like the Soviet Union who denounced God and religion, I find that it was a very hallow, immoral and above all, empty society. It encouraged criminal behavior, the law of the jungle and discouraged honest hard work.

Morality has NOTHING to do with religion. "Be just and good" was Thomas Jefferson's credo and that's good enough for me. "In God We Trust" did not appear on our coins until the Civil War, and "under God" was introduced to the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy era in the 1950's. One can use religion to justify many good AND atrocious deeds. You don't have to look too far into history to see examples of both.

The Soviet Union took away people's freedom to worship. That was their mistake. What makes America great is that our founding fathers gave us the freedom to worship, or not worship, as we please, but to not have that faith, or lack of faith, sanctioned by the government.

 

[tryreading]

It's a good thing that not everybody's morals come from their conscience. Morals are not necessarily something created by chemicals in the human brain.

If you think morals come from God, why do so many religious people kill, commit adultery, lie, cheat, steal, covet, etc., etc?

The answer is that its their brains, chemicals and all, that control their actions and emotions, and decide whether they have morals, and whether they will be moral or not.

 

[tr1414]

Hate & rage? Me? noooo not at all...

 

[hipsterdufus]

Well, to me, when you have the absence of God, their is no right or wrong. Anything goes. Everything is OK to do. Their is only emptiness and immorality. However, I think all religions, so long as they do not violate the personal and property rights of others, should be allowed to be practiced and I do believe in the seperation of Church and State much like the founding fathers of the United States.

When I think of nations like the Soviet Union who denounced God and religion, I find that it was a very hallow, immoral and above all, empty society. It encouraged criminal behavior, the law of the jungle and discouraged honest hard work.

Here's a short list of famous Atheists, Agnostics and Skeptics. Are you saying that all of these people had/have no sense of right or wrong? I bolded a few that stick out to me.

I confess that I'm a Star Trek geek, but note that Gene Rodenberry is on the list. In Star Trek, he would show week after week, how a godless society can have morals and the highest of values.

The Atheist and the Materialist

those who have no need for gods and some who have no need for the supernatural

Douglas Adams, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Woody Allen, Lance Armstrong, Darren Aronofsky, Isaac Asimov, Peter William Atkins, David Attenborough, Iain M. Banks, Clive Barker, Dave Barry, Bill Bass, Ingmar Bergman, Björk, Lewis Black, Bill Blass, Jim Bohanan, Marlon Brando, Richard Branson, Berkeley Breathed, Bill Bryson, Peter Buck, Warren Buffett, George Carlin, John Carmack, Adam Carolla, John Carpenter, Asia Carrera, Fidel Castro, Dick Cavett, Noam Chomsky, Chumbawamba, Alexander Cockburn, Billy Connolly, Francis Crick, David Cronenberg, David Cross, Alan Cumming, Rodney Dangerfield, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, David Deutsch, Ani DiFranco, Micky Dolenz, Phil Donahue, Roger Ebert, Dean Edell, Greg Egan, Paul Ehrlich, Albert Einstein, Harlan Ellison, Brian Eno, Harvey Fierstein, Larry Flynt, Dave Foley, Jodie Foster, Kinky Friedman, Janeane Garofalo, Bill Gates, Bob Geldof, Ricky Gervais, Ira Glass, James Gleick, Seth Green, Harry Harrison, Robert Heinlein, Nat Hentoff, Katharine Hepburn, Christopher Hitchens, Douglas Hofstadter, Penn Jillette, Billy Joel, Angelina Jolie, Wendy Kaminer, Jonathan Katz, Diane Keaton, Margot Kidder, Neil Kinnock, Michael Kinsley, Ron Kuby, Milan Kundera, Richard Leakey, Bruce Lee, Tom Lehrer, Stanislaw Lem, Tom Leykis, James Lipton, H.P. Lovecraft, John Malkovich, Barry Manilow, Karl Marx, Todd McFarlane, Sir Ian McKellen, Arthur Miller, Frank Miller, Mike Mills, Marvin Minsky, Julianne Moore, Desmond Morris, Randy Newman, Mike Nichols, Jack Nicholson, Gary Numan, Bob Odenkirk, Patton Oswalt, Camille Paglia, Andy Partridge, Mark Pauline, Steven Pinker, Paula Poundstone, Terry Pratchett, James Randi, Ron Reagan Jr., Keanu Reeves, Rick Reynolds, Gene Roddenberry, Joe Rogan, Henry Rollins, Andy Rooney, Salman Rushdie, John Sayles, Captain Sensible, Robert Silverberg, Bob Simon, Steven Soderbergh, George Soros, Richard Stallman, Bruce Sterling, Howard Stern, J. Michael Straczynski, Julia Sweeney, Matthew Sweet, Annika Sörenstam, Teller, Studs Terkel, Tom Tomorrow, Linus Torvalds, Eddie Vedder, Paul Verhoeven, Gore Vidal, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Sarah Vowell, James Watson, Steven Weinberg, Joss Whedon, Harland Williams, Ted Williams, Steve Wozniak, more...

[+/-]
The Agnostic

those who declare themselves agnostic

Margaret Atwood, Susie Bright, Vincent Bugliosi, Robert X. Cringely, Clarence Darrow, Charles Darwin, Alan Dershowitz, Richard Dreyfuss, Umberto Eco, Timothy Ferris, Carrie Fisher, Stephen Jay Gould, Matt Groening, Bob Guccione, Robert (Bob) James Lee Hawke, David Horowitz, Bob Hoskins, Robert Jastrow, Matt Johnson, Jack Kevorkian, Larry King, Tony Kushner, Dave Matthews, Larry Niven, Neil Peart, Sean Penn, Roman Polanski, Bertrand Russell, Carl Sagan, Dan Savage, James Taylor, Charles Templeton, Uma Thurman, Ted Turner, Robert Anton Wilson, more...

[+/-]
The Ambiguous

apparently skeptical of theism or religion -- need more info

Trey Anastasio, Richard Dean Anderson, John Perry Barlow, Michael Caine, Arthur C. Clarke, George Clooney, Billy Corgan, Dalai Lama, David Duchovny, Patrick Duffy, Danny Elfman, Liam Gallagher, Noel Gallagher, Mikhail Gorbachev, Spalding Gray, Stephen Hawking, Hugh Hefner, Sir Edmund Hillary, Molly Ivins, Mark Knopfler, Stan Lee, Monica Lewinsky, G. Gordon Liddy, Bill Maher, Marilyn Manson, Sarah McLachlan, Mojo Nixon, Krist Novoselic, Emo Philips, Natalie Portman, Christopher Reeve, Andy Richter, Oliver Sacks, William Shatner, Neil Simon, Mira Sorvino, Donald Sutherland, Mark Twain, Gene Wilder, Bruce Willis, Edward O. Wilson, Terry Wogan,

http://www.celebatheists.com/w/index.php?title=Main_Page

 

[TimmyBoy]

I am famaliar with the views of some of these people, including Noam Chomsky. I don't necessarily agree with them on everything though I might agree with them on some issues. My personal convictions is that their is a God. I would also like to say that I don't necessarily agree with Gene Rodenberry's conclusions either.

 

[tryreading]

I am famaliar with the views of some of these people, including Noam Chomsky. I don't necessarily agree with them on everything though I might agree with them on some issues. My personal convictions is that their is a God. I would also like to say that I don't necessarily agree with Gene Rodenberry's conclusions either.

I was thinking you were closed-minded before, but after reading below that Noam Chomsky is an affirmed athiest, and noticing that at least part of your credo is based on his philosophy, as implied by your signature, I think there is hope for you to become more enlightened. Not to become an atheist, of course, but only more open minded.

 

[George_Washington]

Again, this refers to the entire world and not Europe.

You're not thinking about the statistics I provided you. If 86% of the world is religious, the probability that the remaining 14% is entirely placed in Europe is quite low, considering that the vast majority of the world's population doesn't live in Europe.

"Atheism" is a dirty word in many countries (including ours), so it's not surprising that most people don't identify with it. But since I'm not asking that a reference to the nonexistence of God be included in the EU Constitution, once again your point is moot.

My point is not moot because the reference to the nonexistence of God is already implied in the EU Constitution, since there is no reference to God in the first place. The absence of the reference suggests the same thing as putting in there, "We are all atheists" or "The EU officially denounces god" or whatever.

You can repeat the statistics all you want, but you ignored my refutation of them: In many European countries, identifying with a religion is like identifying with a social club, and is completely separate from whether or not a person believes in God.

What refutation are you referring to? I have showed you statistics that clearly indicate that the majority of people in Germany, for example, are Christian. I have not seen any statistical data that suggests they are liars or that they actually don't believe in God yet while being Christian. If you have some evidence which suggests that, please present it. Otherwise I don't see how most people in Europe could consider themselves to be Christian yet not believe in God.

 

[Kandahar]

You're not thinking about the statistics I provided you. If 86% of the world is religious, the probability that the remaining 14% is entirely placed in Europe is quite low, considering that the vast majority of the world's population doesn't live in Europe.

You are aware that groups of people with similar beliefs are often found in similar societies? The world is not a homogeneous place. There are almost as many Muslims as Christians in the world, yet there are many less Muslims than Christians in the United States.

I don't understand why you think that just because 14% of the world is nonbelievers, there can't possibly be more than 14% nonbelievers in an area like Europe...

My point is not moot because the reference to the nonexistence of God is already implied in the EU Constitution, since there is no reference to God in the first place. The absence of the reference suggests the same thing as putting in there, "We are all atheists" or "The EU officially denounces god" or whatever.

That's ridiculous. The EU Constitution didn't include any reference to The Simpsons either; should FOX write them and inquire why they are denouncing the cartoon? The EU Constitution didn't include any reference to the belief that the earth is spherical; does that mean that they are flat-earthers?

In fact, the amount of things that the EU Constitution didn't reference is infinite. They can't possibly be denouncing all of those things...can they?

What refutation are you referring to? I have showed you statistics that clearly indicate that the majority of people in Germany, for example, are Christian. I have not seen any statistical data that suggests they are liars or that they actually don't believe in God yet while being Christian. If you have some evidence which suggests that, please present it. Otherwise I don't see how most people in Europe could consider themselves to be Christian yet not believe in God.

Have you visited Europe? I have, and in many areas (Germany, England, Denmark, Northern France) saying "I'm a Catholic" or "I'm a Lutheran" or "I'm an Anglican" doesn't imply anything about one's religious beliefs or lack thereof. You might be a Catholic because your parents were Catholics and maybe you occasionally go to mass to make friends. You might be a Lutheran because your favorite night-time hangout doubles as a Lutheran church in the morning.

It's not that they're "liars," it's just that they don't identify themselves in the same terms that Americans do.

Poll after poll that bluntly asks Europeans "Do you believe in God?" produces very different results from asking them what religion they're affiliated with. I linked to one such poll earlier in the thread.

 

[GarzaUK]

Yes that is true in Europe. I say I'm a protestant, but I never go to church and I am purely agnostic.
Religion is dying in Western Europe for sure. You just need to see the empty pews in church to realise so. Timmy you say that a lack of religion produces immorality, I beg to differ. The crime rates of America are way higher than over here. And we have few if any greedy televangelists pretending to cure people for fiscal purposes. I could go on.
The fact is God is no longer a representive of every man and women in Europe, so why should he/she be in the constitution?

 

[George_Washington]

You are aware that groups of people with similar beliefs are often found in similar societies? The world is not a homogeneous place. There are almost as many Muslims as Christians in the world, yet there are many less Muslims than Christians in the United States.

I don't understand why you think that just because 14% of the world is nonbelievers, there can't possibly be more than 14% nonbelievers in an area like Europe...

It's not impossible but it's also not likely due to the fact that Europe's population is small compared to that combined of India and China. It's just like if you had 3 marbles and you threw them randomly into a huge stack of marbles, what is the probability that they would all end up in a relatively small section of the heap? It's low.

That's ridiculous. The EU Constitution didn't include any reference to The Simpsons either; should FOX write them and inquire why they are denouncing the cartoon? The EU Constitution didn't include any reference to the belief that the earth is spherical; does that mean that they are flat-earthers?

In fact, the amount of things that the EU Constitution didn't reference is infinite. They can't possibly be denouncing all of those things...can they?

But the fact that they didn't include the reference just automatically implies a lack of belief. It does because that's how it will be perseved by the rest of the world.

Have you visited Europe? I have, and in many areas (Germany, England, Denmark, Northern France) saying "I'm a Catholic" or "I'm a Lutheran" or "I'm an Anglican" doesn't imply anything about one's religious beliefs or lack thereof. You might be a Catholic because your parents were Catholics and maybe you occasionally go to mass to make friends. You might be a Lutheran because your favorite night-time hangout doubles as a Lutheran church in the morning.

It's not that they're "liars," it's just that they don't identify themselves in the same terms that Americans do.

Poll after poll that bluntly asks Europeans "Do you believe in God?" produces very different results from asking them what religion they're affiliated with. I linked to one such poll earlier in the thread.

Yes, I've been to Europe. I had already stated that early in this thread. I have seen polls such as this and I just think it is more or less due to a trend that's currently going on over in Europe of agnosticism and atheism. The truth is, I could find polls that suggest just the opposite. For example,

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

"Although figures vary for each country, average numbers indicate that roughly half of the people who self-identify as "nonreligious" also answer "yes" when asked if they believe in God or a Higher Power."

I am a Catholic because I decided that it was the "best" faith (no offense to anybody else's) for me. I've studied other religions in sorts and I've also looked at other Christian sects. The reasons why I decided to remain Catholic are too numerous to list in this post. But I will say that I think all religions offer some degree of truth and a good outlook on the human condition as we know it.

 

[George_Washington]

Yes that is true in Europe. I say I'm a protestant, but I never go to church and I am purely agnostic.
Religion is dying in Western Europe for sure. You just need to see the empty pews in church to realise so. Timmy you say that a lack of religion produces immorality, I beg to differ. The crime rates of America are way higher than over here. And we have few if any greedy televangelists pretending to cure people for fiscal purposes. I could go on.
The fact is God is no longer a representive of every man and women in Europe, so why should he/she be in the constitution?

Empty pews? Well, I've been to your Saint Paul's of London and Salisbury Cathedral and I didn't see a huge lot of empty pews.

Gaza, the reason why crime is higher in this country doesn't really have to do with religion so much as it has to do with social factors. And don't forget that although crime might be higher, we have the most stable form of government in the world. It has never been overthrown or dismantled. Our government system has been an inspiration to people all over the world. We also give some of the highest amounts of freedom in the world. We may have false prophets and televangelists but at least we don't have rising dictators and such that are far too common in the rest of the world.

 

[Plain old me]

Just a few points...

No-one is suggesting Europe should renounce God, nor do I believe His lack of mention in the constitution demonstrates this. Allah is not mentioned in the constitution, nor is the Buddha, this does not mean that Europe renounces them, but instead recognises that Europe is far too multicultural to focus on one religion.

Empty pews? Well, I've been to your Saint Paul's of London and Salisbury Cathedral and I didn't see a huge lot of empty pews.

I've been to my local churches a number of times, and they're lucky if they get more then a handful of people.

 

[Kandahar]

It's not impossible but it's also not likely due to the fact that Europe's population is small compared to that combined of India and China. It's just like if you had 3 marbles and you threw them randomly into a huge stack of marbles, what is the probability that they would all end up in a relatively small section of the heap? It's low.

Well I'm not saying that there are no nonbelievers anywhere else in the world (in fact, the majority of that 14% undoubtedly come from China). But it's precisely BECAUSE Europe's population is so low that they can have a much greater-than-average proportion of nonbelievers without skewing that 14% figure too drastically.

Think of it this way: If 40% of US states are blue states, what is the probability that all six New England states would be blue? If you assume that political ideology is randomly distributed (as you seem to be assuming with religious belief), the probability of all six New England states being blue is only 0.4%, yet that's the case. People influence, and are influenced by, their society. It shouldn't be any surprise that certain beliefs or ideas tend to cluster in certain areas.

But the fact that they didn't include the reference just automatically implies a lack of belief.

No it doesn't, it implies that they're remaining neutral. If they wanted to imply a lack of belief they could've said "One continent under no god" or something like that, but they didn't include that either. As I mentioned, they didn't include a reference to the belief that the earth is spherical, but I don't think they're implying that it's not..

It does because that's how it will be perseved by the rest of the world.

I think you're projecting your OWN beliefs on to the rest of the world.

Yes, I've been to Europe. I had already stated that early in this thread. I have seen polls such as this and I just think it is more or less due to a trend that's currently going on over in Europe of agnosticism and atheism. The truth is, I could find polls that suggest just the opposite. For example,

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

But that poll is mainly concerned with what religion people self-identify with (which I've addressed), not whether or not they believe in god.

"Although figures vary for each country, average numbers indicate that roughly half of the people who self-identify as "nonreligious" also answer "yes" when asked if they believe in God or a Higher Power."

That's a world average, not representative of Europe. In fact, the only place I see Europe mentioned on this survey is where it's pointed out that Europe has, by far, the highest proportion of nonbelievers of any continent.

 

[George_Washington]

Well I'm not saying that there are no nonbelievers anywhere else in the world (in fact, the majority of that 14% undoubtedly come from China). But it's precisely BECAUSE Europe's population is so low that they can have a much greater-than-average proportion of nonbelievers without skewing that 14% figure too drastically.

Think of it this way: If 40% of US states are blue states, what is the probability that all six New England states would be blue? If you assume that political ideology is randomly distributed (as you seem to be assuming with religious belief), the probability of all six New England states being blue is only 0.4%, yet that's the case. People influence, and are influenced by, their society. It shouldn't be any surprise that certain beliefs or ideas tend to cluster in certain areas.

Well, yes that's true if you look at the actual facts. But I think according to statistics...yes, Europe could have a high percentage of nonbelievers without skewing the 14% due to its small population. However, if you look at the population of the world as a whole so to speak, the probability of having a 14% minority population is greatest in the country that holds the most people because that sample isn't very big to begin with. Which would coincidentally explain why China would have most of that 14%, although you're right that in the real world it wouldn't have to neccessarily end up that way.

 

[tr1414]

The bottom line is a simple menton of God does not hurt anyone. It's just God, it can be anyones..... some people wont be happy until God is out of the public square although.

 

[Kandahar]

The bottom line is a simple menton of God does not hurt anyone.

And simply not mentioning God does not hurt anyone either. So much for that argument.

What is so terrible about a constitution of governments committed to freedom of religion and multiculturalism choosing to remain neutral on the subject of God, especially when a large majority of Europeans (including theists) support secularism and think that government and religion should be separate?

It's just God, it can be anyones..... some people wont be happy until God is out of the public square although.

And some people (i.e. you) won't be happy until their beliefs are forced on the entire world through public sanction.

 

[TimmyBoy]

And simply not mentioning God does not hurt anyone either. So much for that argument.

What is so terrible about a constitution of governments committed to freedom of religion and multiculturalism choosing to remain neutral on the subject of God, especially when a large majority of Europeans (including theists) support secularism and think that government and religion should be separate?



And some people (i.e. you) won't be happy until your beliefs are forced on the entire world through public sanction.

I think it is OK to mention God and remain neutral between the various religions.

 

[Kandahar]

I think it is OK to mention God and remain neutral between the various religions.

Then you aren't remaining neutral, as the government would be saying that theists are correct and atheists are incorrect. This is no different than saying Christians are correct and Muslims are incorrect.

This would be bad enough in a society that generally AGREED with the concept of God, but it's simply ludicrous to expect a society like Europe (which has a large minority or a slim majority of nonbelievers) to give public sanction to your religious ideas. Even if you don't believe in minority rights for some reason, even simple majority rule in Europe would almost certainly vote down the idea of referencing God in their Constitution.

It would be like expecting the Lebanese Constitution to declare Christianity to be the correct religion, or the Israeli Constitution to officially endorse Islam.

 

[tr1414]

And simply not mentioning God does not hurt anyone either. So much for that argument.

What is so terrible about a constitution of governments committed to freedom of religion and multiculturalism choosing to remain neutral on the subject of God, especially when a large majority of Europeans (including theists) support secularism and think that government and religion should be separate?



And some people (i.e. you) won't be happy until their beliefs are forced on the entire world through public sanction.

Just a question.... why in a time of war would have chose to have should a stupid name? I think that speaks for itself

 

[hipsterdufus]

I am famaliar with the views of some of these people, including Noam Chomsky. I don't necessarily agree with them on everything though I might agree with them on some issues. My personal convictions is that their is a God. I would also like to say that I don't necessarily agree with Gene Rodenberry's conclusions either.

That's your right to believe as you see fit. I take issue when you say that those who don't believe, or are skeptical, have no sense of right or wrong.