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Should God have been mentioned in the EU Constitution?

Should a reference to God been included in the EU Constitution?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 34.8%
  • No

    Votes: 15 65.2%

  • Total voters
    23

George_Washington

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Back in 2003, Europe decided not to include any reference to God in the European Union Constitution. However, this decision came with opposition as the Roman Catholic Church and 20 other conservative representatives wanted a reference made. The reference would not have mentioned a specific religion but would have, as they had argued, been reference to a spiritual heritage.

You can read more about it here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/836700/posts

So, do you think they should have included the reference? I am not a European but I think it would have been nice to have as a spiritual reference.
 

Kandahar

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No...Why should they? Governments should remain neutral on religious questions. Aside from that, only about half of Europeans believe in a god and even fewer are religious.

My guess is that the majority of European countries and European people are against such a reference. Religion, where it exists at all in Europe, is not generally paraded around on public display like it is in the United States.
 

George_Washington

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Kandahar said:
No...Why should they? Governments should remain neutral on religious questions. Aside from that, only about half of Europeans believe in a god and even fewer are religious.

My guess is that the majority of European countries and European people are against such a reference. Religion, where it exists at all in Europe, is not generally paraded around on public display like it is in the United States.
I know and I just think that's sad that Europe is losing its taste for religion.
 

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George_Washington said:
Back in 2003, Europe decided not to include any reference to God in the European Union Constitution. However, this decision came with opposition as the Roman Catholic Church and 20 other conservative representatives wanted a reference made. The reference would not have mentioned a specific religion but would have, as they had argued, been reference to a spiritual heritage.

You can read more about it here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/836700/posts

So, do you think they should have included the reference? I am not a European but I think it would have been nice to have as a spiritual reference.
Aside from occassional ramblings from fundamentalist conservatives, America was well served by her constitution which not only excluded God but prohibited any religious establishment. Why mess with success?
 

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Kandahar said:
No...Why should they? Governments should remain neutral on religious questions. Aside from that, only about half of Europeans believe in a god and even fewer are religious.

My guess is that the majority of European countries and European people are against such a reference. Religion, where it exists at all in Europe, is not generally paraded around on public display like it is in the United States.
A rejection of the xtian god should not be interpreted as a rejection of spirituality.
If anything it is paganism in its various forms that is the biggest growing spirituality within Europe and these beliefs cannot be codified or fossilised as in the judaic religions of judaism,xtianity and islam.
 

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George_Washington said:
I know and I just think that's sad that Europe is losing its taste for religion.
I disagree.It is merely "losing its "taste" for imported alien religion not indigenous to its soil.Paganism is growing.Europeans are returning to the gods of their ancestors,rejecting the aliens gods imposed upon their ancestors.
 
H

hipsterdufus

George_Washington said:
I know and I just think that's sad that Europe is losing its taste for religion.
There's no talk of teaching Intelligent Design at schools in Europe.
 

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Kandahar said:
No...Why should they? Governments should remain neutral on religious questions. Aside from that, only about half of Europeans believe in a god and even fewer are religious.

My guess is that the majority of European countries and European people are against such a reference. Religion, where it exists at all in Europe, is not generally paraded around on public display like it is in the United States.

Only half of Europeans believe in God & even fewer are religious?! Check out Italy, Spain & Poland for starters. What's wrong with God, what's wrong with trying to be a good person. We all need to have God in our lives. That's one of the resons the head-choppers heat us so much, they see us as unGodley. I don't know when the few non-belivers felt that they could bend the belivers to their will but I see it more & more. Does anyone think this is a good thing?
 

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tr1414 said:
Only half of Europeans believe in God & even fewer are religious?! Check out Italy, Spain & Poland for starters.
Spain isn't that religious anymore.
Now check out every European country that is NOT Italy or Poland.

tr1414 said:
What's wrong with God, what's wrong with trying to be a good person.
Because, of course, those are self-evidently the same thing... :confused:

tr1414 said:
We all need to have God in our lives.
Says you. I get along just fine without any god, and apparently lots of other people do too.

tr1414 said:
I don't know when the few non-belivers felt that they could bend the belivers to their will but I see it more & more. Does anyone think this is a good thing?
Yes, it's a good thing that minority rights are protected. But aside from that, it's not a "few non-believers bending the believers to their will." Nearly a majority of Europeans are agnostics or non-believers, and probably an even greater majority that are against referencing any god in the EU Constitution.
 

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Kandahar said:
Spain isn't that religious anymore.
Now check out every European country that is NOT Italy or Poland.



Because, of course, those are self-evidently the same thing... :confused:



Says you. I get along just fine without any god, and apparently lots of other people do too.



Yes, it's a good thing that minority rights are protected. But aside from that, it's not a "few non-believers bending the believers to their will." Nearly a majority of Europeans are agnostics or non-believers, and probably an even greater majority that are against referencing any god in the EU Constitution.

I just love it when liberals are so WRONG. Here's a break down. You tell me if most of these people belive in God.

Greece 78% Catholic, Austria 73% Catholic, Belgium 75%, Catholic, Bulgaria 82% Christian, Croatia 87% Catholic, Cyprus 75% Greek Orthodox Catholic, Czech Rep. 26% Catholic, Denmark 95% Lutheren Christian, Finland 84% Lutheren Christian, France 83% Catholic, Georgia 83% Christian, Germany 34% Protestant,34% Catholic, Hungery 52% Catholic, Iceland 85% Lutheran, Ireland 88% Catholic, Italy 99% Catholic, Liechtenstein 76% Catholic, Luxembourg 87% Catholic, Malta 98% Catholic, Moldova 98% Easten Orthodox Christian, Monaco 90% Catholic, Netherlands 32% Catholic, 13% Duch Reformed Christian, Norway 86% Pentecostal Christian, Romania 87% Protestant Christian, Slovakia 69% Catholic, 10% Protestant Christian, Slovenia 58% Catholic, Spain 94% Catholic, Sweden 87% Lutheran Christian, Switzerland 42% Catholic, 35% Protestant Christian, United Kingdom 73% Christian, Turkey 99% Muslim.

Looks to me like most of these people belive in God. It's the people who don't belive that wants things to change for them. Kinda got that upside down huh?
What's wrong with letting God into our lifes? What's wrong with trying to live life by His Laws? I'm sure the liberals will have something to say..... but we all know that it will only be against Christians in one form or another. Think about it.... you can hand out condoms in a school, have our kids read books like "Heather has two mommy's" Liberals want to protray being gay as normal. What's going on here is that they want to make the abnormal normal. We've had 40 years of liberalism & it DON'T WORK. I'm tired of seeing murders back out on the street after only a few years.
I'm sick of right being wrong & this is just the tip of the iceberg. Though the NEA, our tax dollars pay for crap that passess for "art", our students are thought by liberal teachers at liberal schools & we see it all in the liberal media. It's ok do disagree but the level of hate is way over the line.
As long as there are Ward Churchills among us the hate on the left will rise. They will be a black lash. People want values. People want leadership. People want/need God in their lives.
 

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tr1414 said:
I just love it when liberals are so WRONG. Here's a break down. You tell me if most of these people belive in God.

Greece 78% Catholic, Austria 73% Catholic, Belgium 75%, Catholic, Bulgaria 82% Christian, Croatia 87% Catholic, Cyprus 75% Greek Orthodox Catholic, Czech Rep. 26% Catholic, Denmark 95% Lutheren Christian, Finland 84% Lutheren Christian, France 83% Catholic, Georgia 83% Christian, Germany 34% Protestant,34% Catholic, Hungery 52% Catholic, Iceland 85% Lutheran, Ireland 88% Catholic, Italy 99% Catholic, Liechtenstein 76% Catholic, Luxembourg 87% Catholic, Malta 98% Catholic, Moldova 98% Easten Orthodox Christian, Monaco 90% Catholic, Netherlands 32% Catholic, 13% Duch Reformed Christian, Norway 86% Pentecostal Christian, Romania 87% Protestant Christian, Slovakia 69% Catholic, 10% Protestant Christian, Slovenia 58% Catholic, Spain 94% Catholic, Sweden 87% Lutheran Christian, Switzerland 42% Catholic, 35% Protestant Christian, United Kingdom 73% Christian, Turkey 99% Muslim.

Looks to me like most of these people belive in God. It's the people who don't belive that wants things to change for them. Kinda got that upside down huh?
No. I don't know where you got those statistics, but identifying with a religion is NOT the same thing as being religious or believing in God. For example, a majority of Britons are "Anglicans," but do you honestly think that the majority of Britons are religious? A majority of Germans are "Lutherans," but do you really believe that a majority of Germans give a **** about Martin Luther? In many European countries, identifying with a church is the equivalent of identifying with a social group rather than with a religious belief.

tr1414 said:
What's wrong with letting God into our lifes?
Nothing, if that's your choice. But it's not the choice of lots of Europeans, and it certainly shouldn't be the choice of any government.

tr1414 said:
What's wrong with trying to live life by His Laws? I'm sure the liberals will have something to say..... but we all know that it will only be against Christians in one form or another. Think about it.... you can hand out condoms in a school, have our kids read books like "Heather has two mommy's" Liberals want to protray being gay as normal. What's going on here is that they want to make the abnormal normal. We've had 40 years of liberalism & it DON'T WORK. I'm tired of seeing murders back out on the street after only a few years.

I'm sick of right being wrong & this is just the tip of the iceberg. Though the NEA, our tax dollars pay for crap that passess for "art", our students are thought by liberal teachers at liberal schools & we see it all in the liberal media.
None of this has anything to do with the subject at hand, so you'll have to forgive me if I simply ignore it.

tr1414 said:
It's ok do disagree but the level of hate is way over the line.
You're the only one on this thread (so far) who seems to be hate-filled and disrespectful of other religious views.

tr1414 said:
People want values. People want leadership. People want/need God in their lives.
Lots of us are doing fine without him, but thanks for your...err...concern.
 
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Kandahar said:
No. I don't know where you got those statistics, but identifying with a religion is NOT the same thing as being religious or believing in God. For example, a majority of Britons are "Anglicans," but do you honestly think that the majority of Britons are religious? A majority of Germans are "Lutherans," but do you really believe that a majority of Germans give a **** about Martin Luther? In many European countries, identifying with a church is the equivalent of identifying with a social group rather than with a religious belief.
Europe is more religious than a lot of liberals would like us all to believe. I've been to England and I've been to Saint Paul's Cathedral in London and it was jam packed when I was there. Not just with tourists but with people listening to mass. But anyway...here are the stats on religion:

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

You see there that roughly 86% of people in the world have religion in their lives. Check this out:

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Christianity

"People who specify atheism as their religious preference actually make up less than one-half of one percent of the population in many countries where much large numbers claim no religious preference, such as the United States (13.2% nonreligious according to ARIS study of 2001) and Australia (15% nonreligious)."

And I think tr1414's stats are roughly accurate. Look at this:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/gm/Religion

According to this site, 36% of the people are Protestant and 36% are Catholic. So much for your theory that Western Europe no longer believes in God. Actually most people who aren't religious are agnostic rather than atheist.
 

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tr1414 said:
Only half of Europeans believe in God & even fewer are religious?! Check out Italy, Spain & Poland for starters. What's wrong with God, what's wrong with trying to be a good person. We all need to have God in our lives. That's one of the resons the head-choppers heat us so much, they see us as unGodley. I don't know when the few non-belivers felt that they could bend the belivers to their will but I see it more & more. Does anyone think this is a good thing?
I have to agree with part of what you say and disagree with some. Certainly we need God in our lives. Believing in God does not make one a good person. It is possible to be an atheist and lead a good upstanding life. I am a christian, that fact alone means nothing if I am a destroyer, desecrator and nasty toward others for no reason, other to hate.
 

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tr1414 said:
I just love it when liberals are so WRONG. Here's a break down. You tell me if most of these people belive in God.

Greece 78% Catholic, Austria 73% Catholic, Belgium 75%, Catholic, Bulgaria 82% Christian, Croatia 87% Catholic, Cyprus 75% Greek Orthodox Catholic, Czech Rep. 26% Catholic, Denmark 95% Lutheren Christian, Finland 84% Lutheren Christian, France 83% Catholic, Georgia 83% Christian, Germany 34% Protestant,34% Catholic, Hungery 52% Catholic, Iceland 85% Lutheran, Ireland 88% Catholic, Italy 99% Catholic, Liechtenstein 76% Catholic, Luxembourg 87% Catholic, Malta 98% Catholic, Moldova 98% Easten Orthodox Christian, Monaco 90% Catholic, Netherlands 32% Catholic, 13% Duch Reformed Christian, Norway 86% Pentecostal Christian, Romania 87% Protestant Christian, Slovakia 69% Catholic, 10% Protestant Christian, Slovenia 58% Catholic, Spain 94% Catholic, Sweden 87% Lutheran Christian, Switzerland 42% Catholic, 35% Protestant Christian, United Kingdom 73% Christian, Turkey 99% Muslim.

Looks to me like most of these people belive in God. It's the people who don't belive that wants things to change for them. Kinda got that upside down huh?
What's wrong with letting God into our lifes? What's wrong with trying to live life by His Laws? I'm sure the liberals will have something to say..... but we all know that it will only be against Christians in one form or another. Think about it.... you can hand out condoms in a school, have our kids read books like "Heather has two mommy's" Liberals want to protray being gay as normal. What's going on here is that they want to make the abnormal normal. We've had 40 years of liberalism & it DON'T WORK. I'm tired of seeing murders back out on the street after only a few years.
I'm sick of right being wrong & this is just the tip of the iceberg. Though the NEA, our tax dollars pay for crap that passess for "art", our students are thought by liberal teachers at liberal schools & we see it all in the liberal media. It's ok do disagree but the level of hate is way over the line.
As long as there are Ward Churchills among us the hate on the left will rise. They will be a black lash. People want values. People want leadership. People want/need God in their lives.
I posted numbers on another thread showing a 79% to 86% firm belief in God in this country as determined by Harris and Gallup polls, respectively. Some other polls show up to a 92%/95% ratio. These are strong numbers, showing that the vast majority of people in this country believe in a God.

However, though in no way do I hate Christianity, the majority can't defecate on the Constitution, regardless of what they believe in. Also, this does not come from a liberal. The only thing I am liberal on is personal rights.
 

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I voted no, mainly because I do not think it right for to include religion into a constitution. Also because for a nation that celebrates, for the most part anyway, its religous and cultural diversity I do not think it would be appropriate to sign up to a constitution that focus', even in a very small way, on one particular view of 'God'.

The constitution has been and gone now so do we know whether it was included? It's a bit moot anyways, as several countries have already refused to sign it.
 

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Kandahar said:
Nothing, if that's your choice. But it's not the choice of lots of Europeans, and it certainly shouldn't be the choice of any government.
None of this has anything to do with the subject at hand, so you'll have to forgive me if I simply ignore it.
You're the only one on this thread (so far) who seems to be hate-filled and disrespectful of other religious views.


I think it has a lot to do with the topic. Think about it. Over the last 40 years or so have we all have gotten used to things that used to shock us. It was not so long ago that a man would wear a shirt & tie to a baseball game. Now we can see kids running around with tee shirts with sayings on them that used to make a salior blush. Ask yourself, are these good things? I say it all comes from a moral decline that starts with a lack of God. Why did it get to the point that we can't sing "God bless America" in school? We have the liberals & Johnson's so called "Great Socitey" to thank for that.
Of cause you would ignore the truth but what did I say that was hate-filled or disrespectful? Anyway, I see a big backlash coming. A hard turn to the right might be the only answer to the moral morass we find ourselfs in.
 

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George_Washington said:
Europe is more religious than a lot of liberals would like us all to believe. I've been to England and I've been to Saint Paul's Cathedral in London and it was jam packed when I was there.
That doesn't mean England is a religious country. I'm sure the ratio of people who were at St. Paul's Cathedral when you were there, to the ratio of Britons who were NOT at St. Paul's Cathedral when you were there, is very very low.

The existence of large churches doesn't mean that they are representative of the entire population. There are some large mosques in the United States that I'm sure are jam-packed every week, but that doesn't make us a Muslim nation.

George_Washington said:
Not just with tourists but with people listening to mass.
Since I never claimed that there is not a single person in all of England who believes in God, I don't see what this proves.

George_Washington said:
But anyway...here are the stats on religion:

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

You see there that roughly 86% of people in the world have religion in their lives.
Which is irrelevant, since we're talking about Europeans, and more specificially the EU Constitution.

George_Washington said:
Again, this refers to the entire world and not Europe.

George_Washington said:
"People who specify atheism as their religious preference actually make up less than one-half of one percent of the population in many countries where much large numbers claim no religious preference, such as the United States (13.2% nonreligious according to ARIS study of 2001) and Australia (15% nonreligious)."
"Atheism" is a dirty word in many countries (including ours), so it's not surprising that most people don't identify with it. But since I'm not asking that a reference to the nonexistence of God be included in the EU Constitution, once again your point is moot.

There have been polls conducted in many European countries that ask, bluntly, "Do you believe in God?" In many countries, fewer than half will answer "Yes," while the rest split between "I don't know" and "No."

George_Washington said:
And I think tr1414's stats are roughly accurate. Look at this:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/gm/Religion

According to this site, 36% of the people are Protestant and 36% are Catholic. So much for your theory that Western Europe no longer believes in God. Actually most people who aren't religious are agnostic rather than atheist.
You can repeat the statistics all you want, but you ignored my refutation of them: In many European countries, identifying with a religion is like identifying with a social club, and is completely separate from whether or not a person believes in God.
 

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tr1414 said:
Why did it get to the point that we can't sing "God bless America" in school?

Of cause you would ignore the truth...
Who said God Bless America can't be sung in schools? You are wrong. Please don't ignore the truth.

http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps...20051120/OPINION0106/511190326/1058/OPINION03



Another article:

Second-Grader Banned From Singing "Awesome God" at Talent Show

An elementary school in Frenchtown, New Jersey prohibited a second-grade student, Olivia Turton, from singing the song "Awesome God" in a voluntary, after-school talent show. The talent show was open for anyone who wished to play solo instruments, dance, perform a skit or sing to karaoke. Students were permitted to select their own songs or skits so long as they were "G-rated."

"There is a distinction between speech by a school and speech by individual students," said ACLU of New Jersey cooperating attorney Jennifer Klear. "The Constitution protects a student's individual right to express herself, including the right to express herself religiously."

Because the school left the choice of songs up to each individual student, the ACLU said, no reasonable observer would have believed that the school endorsed the content of each student's selection.
 
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tr1414 said:
I think it has a lot to do with the topic. Think about it. Over the last 40 years or so have we all have gotten used to things that used to shock us. It was not so long ago that a man would wear a shirt & tie to a baseball game. Now we can see kids running around with tee shirts with sayings on them that used to make a salior blush. Ask yourself, are these good things?
I really don't care if it's a good thing, and I certainly don't think that the EU's refusal to include a reference to God in its constitution has the slightest bearing on what slogans kids wear on their T-shirts.

tr1414 said:
I say it all comes from a moral decline that starts with a lack of God. Why did it get to the point that we can't sing "God bless America" in school? We have the liberals & Johnson's so called "Great Socitey" to thank for that.
Lyndon Johnson presided over the writing of the EU Constitution from the grave? Wow!

And I don't think they'd routinely sing "God bless America" in European schools no matter how religious they were.

tr1414 said:
Of cause you would ignore the truth but what did I say that was hate-filled or disrespectful?
Well, there's this for starters:
tr1414 said:
People want values. People want leadership. People want/need God in their lives.
Translation: "People who disagree with me are amoral, valueless sheep."

Then there's this:
tr1414 said:
What's wrong with God, what's wrong with trying to be a good person.
Translation: "People who don't believe in God are bad people."
 

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I see nothing wrong with a reference to God in the US constitution. The origins of freedom, in the historical context of the American point of view, does not come from the hand of government, but from the hand of God. Freedom is a right given by God, not a privelege that is given by the hand of government. However, the founding fathers were not necessarily Christian and some of them question the Chrisitian religion. God is something that is loosely defined and I think it is also important to maintain a seperation of Church and State. But the idea of freedom, comes from the notion that it is a right given by the hand of God and it is not some sort of privelege. I think by definition, evil is defined as an absence of God. Kind of like how cold is defined as an absence of heat.
 

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TimmyBoy said:
I see nothing wrong with a reference to God in the US constitution. The origins of freedom, in the historical context of the American point of view, does not come from the hand of government, but from the hand of God. Freedom is a right given by God, not a privelege that is given by the hand of government. However, the founding fathers were not necessarily Christian and some of them question the Chrisitian religion. God is something that is loosely defined and I think it is also important to maintain a seperation of Church and State. But the idea of freedom, comes from the notion that it is a right given by the hand of God and it is not some sort of privelege. I think by definition, evil is defined as an absence of God. Kind of like how cold is defined as an absence of heat.
That maybe so, but I would say the issue is more that one might think evil is the absence of God, others may think it the absence of Elightenment, whilst other still may hink the absence of good side of the force. The Constitution had enough problems being passed, I think mentioning just one particular faith, however small, only adds to the problems people have with it.
 

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Plain old me said:
That maybe so, but I would say the issue is more that one might think evil is the absence of God, others may think it the absence of Elightenment, whilst other still may hink the absence of good side of the force. The Constitution had enough problems being passed, I think mentioning just one particular faith, however small, only adds to the problems people have with it.
Well, to me, when you have the absence of God, their is no right or wrong. Anything goes. Everything is OK to do. Their is only emptiness and immorality. However, I think all religions, so long as they do not violate the personal and property rights of others, should be allowed to be practiced and I do believe in the seperation of Church and State much like the founding fathers of the United States.

When I think of nations like the Soviet Union who denounced God and religion, I find that it was a very hallow, immoral and above all, empty society. It encouraged criminal behavior, the law of the jungle and discouraged honest hard work.
 

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TimmyBoy said:
Well, to me, when you have the absence of God, their is no right or wrong. Anything goes. Everything is OK to do. Their is only emptiness and immorality.
At least you said 'to me.' Somebody on one of the abortion threads spouted this same silly ignorance, almost in the same words, as if it were fact.
 
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