Shoot/Don't shoot training. Would you pass?

[PeacefulWarrior]

That video is BS. Nobody acts likes those in the video. A dude is not gonna charge a cop with a rock. A B and E is not drawing on an officer who already has their gun drawn and aimed.

-chuckle-

 

[swing_voter]

I will expand this conversation by pointing out that the training is not only about when to shoot but also how to shoot. And in tis field, the US police training is based on concepts which do not agree with those that other western police forces use.
For example, Finnish police officer routinely aim at the lower part of the body (instead of always going for the center mass and frequently with multipe shots) and statistics regarding Finnish police shootings and casualties seem to reflect it

Poliisin aseenkäyttö johtaa harvoin kuolemaan

Poliisi on laukaissut aseitaan runsaan kymmenen vuoden aikana noin 120 kertaa.

yle.fi

From google translation:

According to the Police Board, the police used the weapon a total of 385 times between 2003 and 2013. During the same period, the police fired shots about 120 times, of which 40 were warning shots.

A total of 20 people were wounded from the bullets.

The chart shows that there was a total of two deaths ( Kuolleita column), and one was during training

In 2009, in Humppila, police shot a man in a siege situation. The following year, the guard was killed in an injury shot fired in practice.

and here is one case of an armed with a knife person who was shot on the leg.

Poliisi ampui veitsimiestä jalkaan Helsingissä – Ville havahtui laukauksiin naapurustossa: ”Ääni oli hätkähdyttävä”

Poliisi tekee parhaillaan teknistä tutkintaa Herttoniemen Niittaajankadulla.

www.is.fi

Translation is not perfect but it is good enough for someone wh does not know the language (like me) to get the essentials of the story. Any native speaker is free to doublecheck the accuracy of the stories.

I hear what you're saying, but most other nations aren't as violent as America.

American police are a reflection of the American public just like Finnish police are a reflection of the Finnish public.


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[pamak]

I hear what you're saying, but most other nations aren't as violent as America.

American police are a reflection of the American public just like Finnish police are a reflection of the Finnish public.


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This is true but it does not mean that there should not be such "non-lethal drills" in the US. It is all situation dependent and even in the US, we have many cases when we see cops dealing with a relatively low threat (like mentally ill persons armed with knife or screwdrives) and it appears that they do not have a non-lehtal option to deal with such threats.

 

[KevinKohler]

That's what cops are trained to do. If there's a potential violent situation, the cops show up 'barking orders' to put down the weapon. You would rather they say what?

I would rather a police officer arrive and assess, before kicking down doors and yelling. I have de-escalated violence and threats all throughout my career working in restaurants, bars, and retail...and I never once had to shoot anyone.

 

[Josie]

I would rather a police officer arrive and assess, before kicking down doors and yelling. I have de-escalated violence and threats all throughout my career working in restaurants, bars, and retail...and I never once had to shoot anyone.

They do that plenty of times too.

 

[Court Jester]

I have had hours and hours of this sort of training. I generally clean the courses. But then again,I have had hours and hours of training and have been in instructor for hours and hours. You can set these things so that no one "passes"though

Yep, and when running through a course set up where you can't pass, the purpose of those are to underscore all of the many thousands of possibilities you just cannot know in every incident so as to teach us that there may never be a 100% fail safe response, even relying on training and policy. For example: you cannot know that the dark "gun like" object being pointed at you on a police 911 call about a man threatening people with a "gun" actually turns out to be a TV remote control.

I always seem to get tripped up eventually on a shoot/don't shoot course after getting burned by a seemingly compliant non threatening subject, and then in a next scenario end up shooting someone who appears VERY threatening, is very uncooperative, refuses to show hands, then quickly reaches for something-- and you shoot, only to find out it was a deaf person reaching to their back pocket for a wallet ID, or the autistic teenager reaching for a toy. And then you know how hard a job the police really have.

EVERYBODY please watch this video

 

[KevinKohler]

You don't use real footage of people for training for many reasons. First, they are often not the clearest video, which would make using them for training worthless. Secondly, you can't just use real people for training without getting consent and such, which is why they use actors.

Basically, you made and ill-informed stupid statement and can see your way out of it without losing face so your only choice is to dig in further.

Thats just, like, your opinion, man.

Bottom line? That training vid sucks, as evidenced by the trainees being conditioned to use lethal force, which, by the end, they were doing so illegally.

 

[KevinKohler]

They do that plenty of times too.

This training in the OP doesn't reflect that. It literally conditioned 2 reporters towards lethal responce.

 

[KevinKohler]

Yep, and when running through a course set up where you can't pass, the purpose of those are to underscore all of the many thousands of possibilities you just cannot know in every incident so as to teach us that there may never be a 100% fail safe response, even relying on training and policy. For example: you cannot know that the dark "gun like" object being pointed at you on a police 911 call about a man threatening people with a "gun" actually turns out to be a TV remote control.

I always seem to get tripped up eventually on a shoot/don't shoot course after getting burned by a seemingly compliant non threatening subject, and then in a next scenario end up shooting someone who appears VERY threatening, is very uncooperative, refuses to show hands, then quickly reaches for something-- and you shoot, only to find out it was a deaf person reaching to their back pocket for a wallet ID, or the autistic teenager reaching for a toy. And then you know how hard a job the police really have.

EVERYBODY please watch this video

40 officers are killed per year in the line of duty, out of over 700,000. That means MILLIONS of traffic stops, MILLIONS of interactions with civilians, that go off with zero violence.

But by all means, let's train like EVERY encounter could be your last. Thats a solid recipe for fearful, jumpy, adrenalin pumped, trigger happy police officers.

 

[Felis Leo]

Reporter goes through shoot/don't shoot training.

Would you have passed?


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Here is the problem I have with this training: It appears to be geared at making police officers free and easy with the use of deadly force because the program itself allows for no continuum of force. They have one tool, a gun, and one binary decision: shoot or not shoot. That is it. They cannot issue verbal warnings. They cannot demonstrate to the suspects that they have drawn pistols and are ready to fire and they must stand down. They are just being primed to determine if and when they will be justified in use of deadly force upon the suspect.

 

[Court Jester]

40 officers are killed per year in the line of duty, out of over 700,000. That means MILLIONS of traffic stops, MILLIONS of interactions with civilians, that go off with zero violence.

But by all means, let's train like EVERY encounter could be your last. Thats a solid recipe for fearful, jumpy, adrenalin pumped, trigger happy police officers.

So, let me get this straight. You believe that a police officer is somehow required to accept that his job means he must rely on the subject/suspect to decide ff the cop lives or dies?

NO, I reject that, and so does any rational person.

Read this wikipedia page. Maybe you will learn something from it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhall_incident

 

[Josie]

This training in the OP doesn't reflect that. It literally conditioned 2 reporters towards lethal responce.

Probably why police officers don't just go through this one training nor do they hire journalists to be police officers after one shoot don't shoot training.

 

[Integrityrespec]

Reporter goes through shoot/don't shoot training.

Would you have passed?


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Probably not if you had to hit every target before he hit me. Just shows how quickly a bad situation goes to total chaos and police must make those calls with split second accuracy. Remember police don't just want to shoot someone, they want to get it correct and they want to go home at the end of their shift. The real problem isn't the cops it's the crime. There is a lot more crime than bad cops.

 

[Phys251]

What's interesting to me is how in the private sector, people who are disrespectful but not dangerous are almost always shown some level of consideration.

Consider a verbally abusive customer at Walmart. The clerks will do their best to deal with him, because they know they are accountable if they overreact.

Now consider a verbally abusive civilian dealing with a fat stupid cop. If the guy is lucky, he just gets the shit kicked out of him. If he's unlucky he ends up dead. The reason is because under socialism, there is virtually no accountability. Sure, once in a while a government drone will be fed to the masses, but that's one in a thousand. The problem is that the fat stupid cop doesn't work for the civilian, he works for the state, and that makes all the difference.


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/thread

 

[Phys251]

Well, don't you just live in a Pollyanna world.

 

[Phys251]

What's interesting to me is how in the private sector, people who are disrespectful but not dangerous are almost always shown some level of consideration.

Consider a verbally abusive customer at Walmart. The clerks will do their best to deal with him, because they know they are accountable if they overreact.

Now consider a verbally abusive civilian dealing with a fat stupid cop. If the guy is lucky, he just gets the shit kicked out of him. If he's unlucky he ends up dead. The reason is because under socialism, there is virtually no accountability. Sure, once in a while a government drone will be fed to the masses, but that's one in a thousand. The problem is that the fat stupid cop doesn't work for the civilian, he works for the state, and that makes all the difference.


View attachment 67329950

Try hard to understand that everything you said in your post except for the "socialism" rant were actually good points. Try very hard.

 

[aociswundumho]

Try hard to understand that everything you said in your post except for the "socialism" rant were actually good points. Try very hard.

Like it or not, the institution of police is public ownership/control of the means of production regarding law enforcement.

Take it from the left's favorite communist:

Then he challenged people to see socialism at work in their neighborhoods.

“When you go to your public library, when you call your Fire Department or the Police Department, what do you think you’re calling?” Mr. Sanders said. “These are socialist institutions.”

Preparing to Define ‘Democratic Socialism,’ Bernie Sanders Points to Libraries and the Police

Asked how he planned to defend his beliefs from Republican attacks, Mr. Sanders said: “When you go to your public library, when you call your Fire Department or the Police Department, what do you think you’re calling? These are socialist institutions.”

www.nytimes.com

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[dave8383]

American police are a reflection of the American public just like Finnish police are a reflection of the Finnish public.


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Maybe but either way the police in America are going to have to do better.

 

[Phys251]

Like it or not, the institution of police is public ownership/control of the means of production regarding law enforcement.

Take it from the left's favorite communist:



Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Nope. Try harder. You get one more chance.

 

[Logician Man]

I have had hours and hours of this sort of training. I generally clean the courses. But then again,I have had hours and hours of training and have been in instructor for hours and hours. You can set these things so that no one "passes"though

My understanding is your personal testimony here at DP is you shot someone in the backside. Under what circumstances did your hours and hours of training, train you it is appropriate to shoot someone in the back?

 

[dave8383]

I have had hours and hours of this sort of training. I generally clean the courses. But then again,I have had hours and hours of training and have been in instructor for hours and hours. You can set these things so that no one "passes"though

Nothing personal here but you'd be the last person I'd send on a highly tense call.

 

[calamity]

Nothing personal here but you'd be the last person I'd send on a highly tense call.

I know, right.

 

[Felis Leo]

Like it or not, the institution of police is public ownership/control of the means of production regarding law enforcement.

Take it from the left's favorite communist:



Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

We need not cram everything into a socialist/libertarian paradigm. The concept of the state and law enforcer long pre-existed the concept of socialism and the means of production of goods and services. King Louis XIV was an absolute monarch who had police answerable only to him. But King Louis the XIV was not a socialist.

 

[aociswundumho]

Nope. Try harder. You get one more chance.

We need not cram everything into a socialist/libertarian paradigm. The concept of the state and law enforcer long pre-existed the concept of socialism and the means of production of goods and services. King Louis XIV was an absolute monarch who had police answerable only to him. But King Louis the XIV was not a socialist.

Why would the kind of government matter?

Presumably you both understand that the military is socialist, so why then is it so hard to accept that the institution of police is as well?

And by the way, government is not the only source of law, nor is it even a particularly good source. States make shitty law for the same reasons they make shitty cars.

 

[calamity]

Reporter goes through shoot/don't shoot training.

Would you have passed?


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Nobody lives if my life is in danger.