Sharp drop seen in US deaths in Iraq

[Stinger]

No...what I am saying is, let's not lose track of the big picture. You have people fawning over themselves here and practically popping champagne that "fewer" soldiers have died. To me...that only shows how disgusting those who support this occupation are.

IOW you just can't stand that we are closer to success and winning in Iraq.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Same goes for sending innocent people to gitmo. I know if I was held there and tortured I would not walk out of there a very happy camper.

What innocent people? Do you mean the terrorists?

 

[Iriemon]

Anyone who believes we can engage the enemy and not have civilian casualties when the enemy uses them for cover is an idiot. Anyone who prefers we surrender to the enemy for fear of civilian casualties is an idiot and plays into the hands of our enemies.

Of course, Stinger's point is irrelevant because Iraq had nothing to with engaging the enemy who attacked us on 9-11 but was fullfilling the neocon fantasy of kicking some *** with American military power, and that the "enemies" we face in Iraq are mostly only our "enemies" because we attacked their country on false pretenses.

You can read some of the reactions people have posted here to things like 9-11, the marine barracks bombing in Lebanon, and other acts against Americans. You can feel the anger and hatred they still have. But many Americans have a myopic vision of the world, and do not or cannot consider the case from another's perspective, and somehow think that the survivors of the many thousands who have been killed because of the neocon/Bush Administration's war in Iraq will not harbor these exact same feelings of anger and hatred towards Americans for decades to come.

We are sowing the seeds of our own future disasters.

 

[Iriemon]

What innocent people? Do you mean the terrorists?

What terrorists? You mean the people our government has locked up for years without being charged with anywrongdoing, much less ever proving they did?

Since when in this country did the Govt's accusation against people become proof of guilt?

 

[Binary_Digit]

No it is not a false analogy.The soldiers and marines are doing something that they themselves made a choice to do that you are against.

We were both in the military, so we both know that's bullshit. You choose to join, but you don't choose your orders once you do.

People who do join the military willingly make a choice to go to any war regardless of what their beliefs are and regardless of who the president is.So every soldier,marine,sailor and airmen made a choice to go to willingly go to war.

Do you think Pat Tillman joined the Army just so he could be killed by friendly fire on some hill in Afghanistan? Do you think he implicitly volunteered for that when he signed up to be a Ranger? I don't.

They join the military on good faith that they won't be misused. If they are, it's not their fault.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

What terrorists? You mean the people our government has locked up for years without being charged with anywrongdoing, much less ever proving they did?

Since when in this country did the Govt's accusation against people become proof of guilt?

So to you it makes sense in a time of war to release those captured in said war.


Where do you think those in gitmo were picked up? :lol:

 

[Iriemon]

So to you it makes sense in a time of war to release those captured in said war.

Yeah, if they are innocent. Doesn't that make sense to you?

If they are not innocent, prove they are guilty in a trial and hang them.

Where do you think those in gitmo were picked up? :lol:

I have no idea. :lol: All I know about them are government accusations.

 

[winston53660]

This conversation made me think of "A Clockwork Orange" 'cept this is the "Anti Clockwork Orange."

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Yeah, if they are innocent. Doesn't that make sense to you?

If they are not innocent, prove they are guilty in a trial and hang them.



I have no idea. :lol: All I know about them are government accusations.

Well let me clue you in. They weren't sitting around making falafel they were caught shooting at or trying to blow up Americans.


Does this information make you reconsider or should he have created a "Stricken field" for haji?




"There were young knights among them who had never been present at a stricken field. Some could not look upon it, some could not speak. They held themselves apart from the others who were cutting down prisoners at my lord's orders, for the prisoners were a body too numerous to be guarded by those of us who were left.

Then Jean de Rye, an aged knight of Burgundy who had been sore wounded in the fight, rode up to the group of young knights and said: "are ye maidens with your downcast eyes? Look well upon it. See all of it. Close your eyes to nothing. For the battle is fought to be won, and this is what happens if you lose."


14th-century Froissart’s Chronicles

 

[Iriemon]

Well let me clue you in. They weren't sitting around making falafel they were caught shooting at or trying to blow up Americans.

Does this information make you reconsider or should he have created a "Stricken field" for haji?

Since when in this country did the Govt's accusation against people become proof of guilt?

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Since when in this country did the Govt's accusation against people become proof of guilt?

You don't understand the nature of war do you? If you capture someone shooting at you you keep them for the duration of said war.


You don't take someone who is shooting at you and send them back to Jihad... We have done that and have caught the same people twice.


How effective would chess be if we gave the opponent back his captured pieces during the game?

I know its not pretty, but war is hell.

 

[Iriemon]

You don't understand the nature of war do you? If you capture someone shooting at you you keep them for the duration of said war.

You don't take someone who is shooting at you and send them back to Jihad... We have done that and have caught the same people twice.

How effective would chess be if we gave the opponent back his captured pieces during the game?

I know its not pretty, but war is hell.

What is the basis for your assertion that all, most or some of the people imprisoned by the USG were captured shooting at Americans?

Hundreds of people have been imprisoned at Gitmo and released. You're claim means that the USG has been releasing people that were shooting at our soldiers. Unlikely.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

What is the basis for your assertion that all, most or some of the people imprisoned by the USG were captured shooting at Americans?

Common sense. Why would we house an innocent falafel maker in GITMO?

Hundreds of people have been imprisoned at Gitmo and released. You're claim means that the USG has been releasing people that were shooting at our soldiers. Unlikely.

the rounding up of camel herders and falafal makers are even less likley.

 

[Iriemon]

Originally Posted by Iriemon
What is the basis for your assertion that all, most or some of the people imprisoned by the USG were captured shooting at Americans?

Common sense. Why would we house an innocent falafel maker in GITMO?

Making up baseless assertions again, eh? That's at least twice today.

Since when in this country did the Govt's accusation against people become proof of guilt?

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Making up baseless assertions again, eh? That's at least twice today.

Troll much?

Since when in this country did the Govt's accusation against people become proof of guilt?

They are being detained during a period of war. I can not make it any more simple for you. Sorry....

 

[winston53660]

Since when in this country did the Govt's accusation against people become proof of guilt?

The year 2000.

 

[Iriemon]

The year 2000.

Most accurate response so far.

 

[Iriemon]

Troll much?

Only if you me proving out your BS is trolling.

They are being detained during a period of war. I can not make it any more simple for you. Sorry....

More accurately, these people are being imprisoned indefinitely without being charged of any wrongdoing, without hearings, without any due process or proof of guilt by this Govt.

Can you name some other governments that do or have done that?

 

[Gibberish]

Common sense. Why would we house an innocent falafel maker in GITMO?

You don't have to physicially shoot as Americans to be a threat.

Common sense is understanding that many of those in GITMO have never fired a weapon at the US but are thought to be a threat to the US.

Here is a interesting Q&A on GITMO.

There acknowledged reasons for GITMO itself are interesting...

Why are they being held at Guantanamo?
The federal government hoped it could escape jurisdiction of the courts if the prisoners were held outside of the United States. The Supreme Court case centered on a challenge to that assumption. The issue is still not settled.

NPR : Q&A About Guantanamo Bay and the Detainees

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Only if you me proving out your BS is trolling.

Yes you are trolling.


http://www.ctc.usma.edu/CTC-CSRT-Report-072407.pdf

new report issued by the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point finds that 73% of GITMO detainees are a “demonstrated threat.”


What does demonstrated threat mean? It means that they have satisfied any of the following criteria:

* explicitly and without qualification supported or waged hostile activities against the U.S. or coalition partners
* fought for al Qaeda or the Taliban or associated forces
* received training in an al Qaeda or Taliban training camp
* received training in the use of combat weapons beyond small arms (grenades, rpg’s, ied’s, sniper rifles, etc.)

In fact a further 95% were found to constitute a “potential threat.”


Now will you be man enough to aplologize. doubtful.

There's no doubt about that, at least under this administration.

And your glaring ignorance to world history reveals its head....

 

[Iriemon]

Yes you are trolling.

Only if you me proving out your BS is trolling.

http://www.ctc.usma.edu/CTC-CSRT-Report-072407.pdf

new report issued by the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point finds that 73% of GITMO detainees are a “demonstrated threat.”

"The page cannot be found"

Who is the "Combating Terrorism Center" and why do they have standing to be an objective finder of fact?

27% are therefore not "demonstrated threat" even by the apparent military group.

Now will you be man enough to aplologize. doubtful.

For what? Calling you out on an assertion of fact that you admitted you made up based on "common sense"? LOL

And your glaring ignorance to world history reveals its head....

Funny thing for you to say when I was agreeing with you.

 

[G-Man]

You don't understand the nature of war do you? If you capture someone shooting at you you keep them for the duration of said war.


You don't take someone who is shooting at you and send them back to Jihad... We have done that and have caught the same people twice.


How effective would chess be if we gave the opponent back his captured pieces during the game?

I know its not pretty, but war is hell.

Information on those held at GITMO is pretty scarce but here's a link to the tribunal records of a few :-

http://wid.ap.org/documents/detainees/list.html

I've only looked over about the first ten or so but none of them were arrested firing at US soldiers or even arrested by US soldiers in the first place. They came into US hands after being turned over by the Afghan and Pakistani forces. Most are also held purely on the basis of what the Pakistanis and Afghans have told us. I would hardly call these the most reliable and impartial sources.

On a seperate note we are not currently at war with either Iraq or Afghanistan so on what basis can we hold their citizens (or anyone else's citizens for that matter) as prisoners of war?

Here's how I think it should go - the Afghan's/Pakistani's arrest someone they think is a terrorist - terrorism is a crime - they try the suspects - if innocent they go free if guilty they get locked up for a few decades. Seems simple to me.

Heck we used to work a little like this ourselves (i.e the shoe bomber Richard Reid).

Foreign nationals commiting terrorism in foreign countries against foreign people has nothing to do with the US IMO. Sure we can help the Iraqi's and Afgans tackle the problem but under no sensible rationale should we be holding these people in our custody.

 

[Stinger]

Do you think Pat Tillman joined the Army just so he could be killed by friendly fire on some hill in Afghanistan? Do you think he implicitly volunteered for that when he signed up to be a Ranger? I don't.

He joined knowing that that was a distinct possibility.

 

[DeeJayH]

Here's how I think it should go - the Afghan's/Pakistani's arrest someone they think is a terrorist - terrorism is a crime - they try the suspects - if innocent they go free if guilty they get locked up for a few decades. Seems simple to me.

we tried this path under clinton
look at the success we had as a result :roll:
this is a war, yes a new type of war, but our military can adapt and achieve victory

 

[Iriemon]

we tried this path under clinton
look at the success we had as a result :roll:
this is a war, yes a new type of war, but our military can adapt and achieve victory

It is a new kind of war. An unjustified war based on "mistakes".